Therefore, the next item is a statement by the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care, in celebration of older people's day. I call on the Minister to make the statement. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Yesterday was the International Day of Older Persons, and communities across Wales joined together to recognise and celebrate the many and varied contributions that older people make to society and the Welsh economy.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

As, this year, the celebration aligns with the seventieth anniversary of the universal declaration of human rights, I would like to take this opportunity to update Assembly Members on the work that Welsh Government is taking forward to place human rights at the heart of Welsh public services, and to make Wales the best place in the world to grow old. Growing older should not erode an individual’s human rights. Wales has a long history of working with and for older people, from the introduction of the first strategy for older people in Wales in 2003 to establishing the world’s first older people’s commissioner in 2008, and this commitment to improving lives for older people continues today.

Earlier this year, we started a new programme of work to reinvigorate our focus on older people’s issues. We are working closely with the older people’s commissioner and with older people directly and their representatives to co-produce a framework for an ageing society. A key strand of this work aims to make rights real for older people, and we've established a stakeholder group; we've convened to consider the steps needed to achieve this very aim. Raising awareness of human rights can empower older people to play an active role in ensuring the care that they receive upholds their fundamental right to be treated with dignity and with respect. However, we must also raise awareness of human rights among the public bodies and the organisations that work with older people every day.

The Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 came into force in April 2016. The Act provides the legal framework for improving the well-being of people who need care and support, and it requires local authorities to have due regard to the United Nations principles for older persons. Simply referencing the principles is not enough; 'due regard' means that local authorities must actively consider how the duties impact on the decisions they make every day. Hence independent advocacy services, for example, can give a voice to people, helping to ensure that their views, their wishes, are represented when making choices about their own lives. They are important for supporting people to engage actively and to participate in the development of their own well-being outcomes. And advocacy for all persons is embedded within the SSWB Act 2014. My officials have been working with a technical stakeholder group to set the standards for children and for adult services through the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016, which we know as 'RISCA'. We're also updating the Part 10 code of practice on advocacy, to provide practical guidance on how rights can be made real for older people accessing advocacy. 

One of the five themes of the United Nations principles for older persons is independence. The integrated care fund, the ICF, promotes a human rights-based approach, by supporting older people to maintain their independence and continue to be part of their community. So, for example, the acute response team—the ART—based at the Prince Philip Hospital in Llanelli provides a 24-hour rapid response service for frail older people who would otherwise require admission to hospital. The team work in partnership with a range of other ICF initiatives to facilitate integrated and person-centred care for individuals in their own homes. This allows them to remain within their communities and to continue in their day-to-day lives without the interruptions of visiting hospitals for treatment and to experience better health outcomes as a result.

Participation is also a theme within the UN principles. I recognise that Government must ensure that the infrastructure is in place to support people to remain active and engaged. So, local transport services, community facilities such as public toilets, and places to meet make a tangible difference to the lives of older people. They are integral to creating vibrant and cohesive communities. And reducing levels of loneliness and social isolation among people of all ages is a key priority for Welsh Government. In 'Taking Wales Forward 2016-2021', we confirmed our commitment to developing a nationwide, cross-Government strategy to tackle these issues by March 2019. And funding of £750,000 in 2018-19 and in 2019-20 has been agreed to develop this cross-Government approach.

The current public debate about loneliness and its impact on both physical and mental health strikes to the very core of our society. It questions how we care for and support each other. For those of us growing older, the loneliness debate can sharpen our focus on how we will spend our time when we stop working. People of all ages should be encouraged to plan for their future, not just financially, but to consider the social networks they will need to age well. We should all question what we will expect our communities to offer us in later life and how we can start building those communities right now. By volunteering, caring for loved ones or by being a valued member of their local community, older people, let's be clear, form the backbone of our society. As Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care, I will play an active role in combatting ageist and corrosive stereotypes of older people. If we continue to view old age negatively, we will not be successful in creating a society that supports all older people to enjoy a life that has value, and meaning, and purpose.

Celebrating older people’s day can encourage people of all ages to look forward with positivity and to embrace growing older. My aim is to make Wales the best place in the world to grow old, and I look forward to working with key stakeholders, the older people’s commissioner and, most importantly, older people themselves, to realise this aim. Thank you very much. 

I do thank you, Minister, for your words, and I, too, on behalf of the Welsh Conservative group, absolutely support the ambition to enhance our older people's rights through the raising of awareness and, more, to see this aim manifested in real policy improvement. I have the immense privilege of serving Wales's older people twice over, both as the Welsh Conservative older people's champion and also in my capacity as the Assembly Member for the beautiful constituency of Aberconwy, possessing as it does the highest number of over-65s in Wales. 

It is on this basis that I know at first hand the immense benefit that our older people bring to communities the length and breadth of Wales. It is so often Wales's older and, I reckon, wiser generation that forms the bedrock of our voluntary associations, altruistically devoting their post-retirement years for the benefit of the charitable sector. Moreover, it is undoubtedly the community-mindedness of this age group also that keeps our local infrastructure ticking over, taking on the responsible task of securing improvements in our neighbourhoods and communities that they and we live in and that they care about. We often underestimate the value this population bring in reducing pressure on our state-run services, providing perhaps the largest free childcare service to hard-working parents across Wales.

Now, I was privileged, over the past seven years, to work with Sarah Rochira, our outgoing older people's commissioner, and I am aware that she will be a tough act to follow. But having said that, I am greatly looking forward to working closely with our new older people's commissioner, Heléna Herklots CBE, who I will be delighted to welcome to the second of my own 'ageing well' events for my constituents in November. I have every confidence that her extensive background, advancing older people's rights with Age Concern and Carers UK, will steer policy to ensure that our society does even more to enhance the rights and entitlements of older people. I have been delighted to see the celebrations of these throughout international older people's day, and hope that we can do even more every day to enhance these.

We all know of the dangers that ageism can present to the rights of older people in the workplace. The Business Wales employers guide is a positive step towards combatting such attitudes in our economy, but can you tell me further: what further funding is being introduced for the retraining of older people across the piece, and for people from various backgrounds, so that they can continue making such a vital contribution to our economy? We always talk about loneliness and social isolation; what is better than getting people back into work where they can meet their peers and their working comrades? That to me is a two-edged sword that, really, we need to be using in their favour. So, I thank you again, Minister, and I look forward to working with you as we proceed in this regard. Thank you.

My apologies. I didn't expect to be on my feet quite so rapidly, but I'm happy to be. Janet, can I thank you very much for that contribution, and welcome your role as well as your party's champion for older people? You rightly emphasise once again the role of older people as an asset in our society, in their volunteering, their provision of care themselves, as carers, including, of course, in childcare—as we see now, curiously, as we roll out the children's care offer. Actually, we're going into communities where, very often, it's the grandmothers and the aunts and uncles who are providing large elements of childcare as well. They are definitely an asset, and we need to celebrate this and talk about this far more, because too often, not only in the media but in common parlance, we use those negative stereotypes about a burden, the complexities of old age, the impact on the health service. Well, yes, we recognise that. There is a joy in growing old and in what you can contribute when you're growing old. It does bring complications, and it brings a need for us to provide the right care and support, but, my goodness, it is outweighed far by the contribution you make to society and to your communities. I say that as somebody who is happily and joyfully growing older myself—not necessarily wiser, but older.

Thank you as well for the welcome that you've given to Heléna Herklots, the new appointee taking over from Sarah in the role of older people's commissioner. I've met Heléna at a couple of events already, including a recent event in Carmarthenshire, specifically looking at our strategy that we're bringing forward on loneliness and isolation, and I think she welcomes the work we're doing.

But you also paid tribute in recognition of the work of the outgoing commissioner, of Sarah Rochira. The role of the commissioner is to challenge and to push Welsh Government to do more, and that's the right role for any commissioner, whether it's future generations, children's commissioner, and so on. But there's also—. I have to say, I welcome the really constructive engagement that we've had, where they've pushed, and we've said, 'Well, this is how far we can go now, and where we can go in the future.' And we left in place, I have to say—which I'm looking forward to discussing with Heléna as we take it forward—some real action planning around how we can make practical realisation of rights, as opposed to drafting endless new pieces of law and regulation: How do we make it bite on the ground?

So, we're working already with the older people's commissioner on embedding the rights of older people across a range of policy portfolios. Building on the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act legislation, we're actually bringing forward, in co-production now, practical guidance that demonstrates how to make the UN principles real in reality for older people, where the initial work in that area is focusing on commissioning and on safeguarding and on advocacy, which I mentioned earlier on—these are the areas we need to get really right if we're to support our older people to have a real voice and control over their health and social care. I mentioned that we're updating the 2009 guidance on escalating concerns within care homes, making rights real once again, and embedding human rights in Welsh Government impact assessment processes as well. We're also looking, with Care Inspectorate Wales, at building the narrative of human rights into care home inspection reports as well, and health boards referencing the principles in the quality statements that they produce annually. And we look at other aspects as well.

But this is what it's about: it's giving real voice and control to older people by not—. We often think here, if we legislate, we do something. No, it's taking the legislation we have, working with the older people's commissioner, working with older people themselves and representative organisations to find the way that we make it dig deep and bite in day-to-day reality. So, I welcome those comments, and the celebration that you've made as well of the contribution of older people to our society.

May I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon? Naturally, we welcome the fact that we are celebrating International Day of Older Persons and the fact that the Minister has confirmed personally the commitment of the Welsh Government to the human rights of older people, and his vision of making Wales the best place to grow old.

There are a number of legislative documents and policies in Wales that say the right thing in terms of supporting older people. The Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, for example, as we have already heard, was an innovative Act in terms of its objectives, but experience at the grass-roots level in Wales means that we do have a long way to go before we can say that Wales genuinely is the best place in the world in which to grow older.

The older people's commissioner, Age Cymru, Carers Wales, and a host of other organisations have stated clearly the concerns that they have in terms of how services are provided on the ground. The message is clear: legislation and policy statements are all well and good, but we do need to see progress on the ground in terms of the support that's available to older people, and also progress in the support and the genuine right to receive services through the medium of Welsh when engaging with dementia care, for example, where Welsh speakers with dementia, as you'll be aware, lose their second language first—namely English—and can only then communicate through the medium of Welsh because of the effects of dementia.

So, what is it like to live in Wales as an older person today? We hear of concerns around service delivery on a weekly basis, despite the provisions within the social services and well-being Act and despite the best efforts of the older people's commissioner and others. We hear of older people not receiving carers needs assessments, for example; we hear of older people seeing their day centres closed by local authorities; we hear of the huge numbers of older people feeling lonely and isolated, as the Minister has said; and we hear of older people having to pay extortionate fees to gain domiciliary or residential care. We hear of older people not receiving respite services and in desperately difficult situations. It's clear that there's a long way to go if you are to realise your ambition of making Wales the best place in the world to grow old. So, to just wrap up my comments on the statement.

What, therefore, needs to be done? Well, at heart, we need to think about the values that we have as a society, and we need to develop a national conversation about what it means to care, how we perceive older people, and how we empower older people to live full lives. As a party, we've established a national care commission to consider this issue carefully, and to look to rearrange this entire system, and to establish a national care system. Details of that will follow.

As the party's spokesperson for social care, I'm determined to place social care and older people at the heart of political debate. What's clear, however, is that the legislation and the policy documents alone won’t be able to deliver the change that we need to see. If we want to see genuine progress in this area, then we'll need resources as well to achieve this vision. So, Minister, what certainty can you give to older people in Wales, as well as warm words and laudable policy objectives, that the funding, the resources and the essential workforce will be available in the coming years as we try to ensure improvements in the way that we support older people here in Wales? Thank you very much.

Diolch, Dai. It's interesting that one of the aspects you mentioned there was the talk around a national care service or a national care system. It seems in some ways to be very much the flavour of the moment here, talking about how we take forward an approach to care that builds on the approach that we've done back in the post-war years around the health service. It's quite interesting. Of course, you'll be aware that the approach we're currently taking under 'A Healthier Wales', the long-term plan for health and social care, is to bring the two spheres together. I think it's something that the original architects of the national health service, were they alive today, would look at and would recognise as an imperative, so that, for older people and others, they have something that feels genuinely seamless, that they are picked up when they need it and they are helped to live independently with seamless care, integrated care, around them at home.

We see so many good examples. I was in north Wales yesterday looking at excellent examples: the teams that are working out of Wrexham Maelor Hospital, the Cwm Taf reablement teams, the stay well at home teams. There's more and more of this. We're actually putting the money into that, Dai, as well. So, you're asking about resources. There are a number of ways we do this, not least through the ICF funding, and we've announced an additional £80 million into intermediate care funding this year to drive those sorts of initiatives. Yes, we have changed the ICF slightly—I think rightly—to also include, for example, how we find creative solutions to provide for the needs of children with complex needs and so on. But, the main focus was, and continues to be as well, on the needs of our ageing population and how we best provide that.

So, we are, even in constrained times—as laid out by the finance Secretary just now—we are trying to find that money to drive innovation, but it's more than that. What 'A Healthier Wales' shows us as well, building on the cross-party support for the parliamentary review that preceded it, was that actually this has to become core. So, part of a healthier nation is backed by £100 million of transformation funding, which is not designed to replicate what's going on within ICF, so, lots of 'Let a thousand flowers bloom'; it's to take some of those flowers that are blooming and say, 'How do we make sure that it happens not just in one place but across a region?' And if we can lift it up to a step change across that region, how do we do that in a way then that can be replicable to other regions? So, we build strongly on the creativity that we have seen. 

There are other ways: the investment that we're putting in, for example, to not only our carers strategy, but the money behind carers as well, because we recognise that if you don't look after carers, including some older carers, they themselves will become the people who need to be cared for. So, there are a number of ways that we are trying to put money into the system in the right way and some of them were outlined by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance earlier on.

You are right, though, Dai, we can't rest on our laurels with that, we have a way to go. I think the older people's commissioner has previously been, and I'm sure the new older people's commissioner will be, very frank in welcoming the strides we have taken. I think we are doing some incredible things within Wales, quite frankly, but also saying we need to go further. Part of that, I have to say, is, as has been touched on a couple of times, making a reality of the legislation we pass here as legislators.

I've touched on a couple of the ways we can do it, but one of those is actually taking forward with older people the idea of how we make that real, and there is work going on at the moment with the framework for an ageing society. That's looking at how we make real participation, deal with transport issues in urban and rural areas, living in the community, what makes a real difference to people living independently in the community, and also preparing for the future. Some of that touches on loneliness and isolation.

So, that ministerial advisory forum that's driving that work, along with engaging with older people as well, will operate now up until the spring of next year, then they will bring forward the framework and we'll take forward from that the work that they point at to say, 'This is how you actually make this really happen on the ground and build on the work that we've done.' So, there are ways to go forward with this, but I welcome again the support for drive and innovation within this area. We haven't got there yet and I don't think we ever will. If we ever sit back and say we're happy, we'll have failed. We need to keep on pushing to make these rights real. 

It's a pleasure to speak on this statement today, and I'd like to focus particularly on a success story in my own constituency. The annual Newport 50 Plus Information Day took place on Saturday, and the day is organised by the city's 50 plus forum and has been supported by the city council for over 20 years. It was a great opportunity for the new Older People's Commissioner for Wales, Heléna Herklots, to see the energy and enthusiasm in Newport to support ageing well, and everyone was glad to hear of her commitment to be an advocate for older people and their rights. I'm looking forward to working with her in the future.

The information day is incredibly popular and has grown year by year. It's not just an opportunity for the public to find out what information and advice is available, but it's also a great opportunity for local groups to network. Stallholders range from community activity groups and carer support networks to those providing housing and legal advice. This year, there was a particular focus on intergenerational working, with a group of students from Bassaleg school, as well as cadets volunteering to support the over-50s committee. The idea of involving young people came from forum members themselves, and they're a committed group of volunteers.

Until this year, the group was chaired by the inspirational Shirley Evans. Shirley showed great dedication to the forum and the people it represents for some 20 years. And as with many things, it's often a small group of volunteers who drive forward these events and activities, and Shirley certainly led the way. Peter Walters has now ably taken over as chair, ensuring that the forum continues to listen to and champion older people across our city. Shirley still regularly attends meetings, and is a prime example of remaining active and not allowing age to become a barrier.

Marking the beginning of Age Positive Week, Saturday's event was a real celebration of older people and all that they contribute to our city. And as the Minister says, older people form the backbone of our society. Events like these are so important to showcase services and activities available for older people, so perhaps the Minister can ensure that this good practice is fed into other areas of Wales, and I'm sure that Newport 50 plus forum would warmly welcome the Minister to the popular event next year. Thank you.           

Thank you. I think as the invitation has been laid down well in advance, I don't think I've got any excuse for failing to attend now. Jayne, thank you very much for that, and I think it does show that we all actually have a role here to play locally in the events that we attend and the events that we organise in the way that we actually celebrate the lives of older people, and the contribution that they make. We need to keep on doing this, because I think it's a bit of a 'We are winning, but we've got to do it more often in order to turn round these negative connotations that are often portrayed in the media about older people'—that they are a burden, and so on. Actually, if we didn't have these older people who are volunteering, who are looking after their children, looking after their loved ones, who are doing so much, who are running community transport schemes, who are working in food banks, who are doing the school runs, and so on, we'd fall apart, quite frankly—we really would. But it's also the wisdom and experience that comes. There's a role for older people—I have to say this as somebody who's just passed 55—in being part of the bedrock of those communities. It's not institutional wisdom; it's that community wisdom. They've see a few years under their belt and, actually, you're touching on that intergenerational aspect.

There are wins both ways. We increasingly see it from well-known, high-profile initiatives such as Pimp my Zimmer, to the exchanges where older people go into schools and do reading classes and assist teachers assistants within classes, but also younger people going into residential homes. The engagement is fantastic to see, and there are wins both ways—younger people going from school, sometimes as part of the Welsh bac, to actually talk through memories with people who are experiencing dementia, and to work with them on that. There are so many wins with it.

We all have a role to play, and I pick up the cudgel. I'm sure that my office team who'll be listening to this debate will have heard the invitation for next year, and will be putting it eagerly into the diary. I'd be keen to come along, and I've been to that centre several times. Most recently, I was there with a large group of older persons organisations—and younger people as well—talking about the issues of loneliness and isolation. So, I’d happily look at coming to that next year, but thank you very much for your approach to it. I know that John, your colleague in Newport, has said the same as well: we all have a role to play in celebrating older people.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement today and for some of the positive initiatives he outlines? I feel reasonably qualified to take part in this debate, and perhaps here I should declare an interest.

Many of the key concerns surrounding older people are identified in their ability to deal with statutory authorities on matters such as financial worries, housing, health, crime and isolation. These needs are a large part of living into old age. We all acknowledge that smoking, diet and exercise correlate directly to deprivation and ill health in later years. This results in some older people finding real restrictions on their ability to look after themselves during old age. Many older people experience problems in daily living because of chronic illnesses or health-related disabilities. We are living longer but not necessarily healthier lives. The decline of the wider family group compared to earlier times is a factor that puts many older people into care homes and away from their communities much earlier than should be the case, thereby increasing their isolation from friends and peers.

It is encouraging to read in today’s statement about the setting up of the acute response team in Prince Philip Hospital, which is designed to keep and treat people at home. This of course begs the question, Cabinet Secretary: how quickly will these be set up in other hospitals?

We again acknowledge that ensuring that older people are not disadvantaged simply by reason of age is one of the greatest challenges of modern times. That challenge is to ensure that all of our older people are able to live fulfilling lives and that they are not seen as a burden but recognised for the contribution they have made throughout their lives to the economy and community as a whole and also to acknowledge that many of them still contribute to society in many ways, often being the backbone of many charities and social activities. It is therefore incumbent on statutory authorities to ensure that their core mainstream services are available to older residents in the same way that they are for other people.

Social care is not just about getting people washed and dressed, but should be aspiring to help people live the fullest of lives and with dignity. Financial arrangements should be put in place as soon as possible, in anticipation of the escalation of costs of providing services going forward. There is a welter of issues building like floodwaters behind a dam. Unless we act decisively to prevent it, that dam will one day burst with devastating consequences, particularly for the elderly.

As we know, Whitehall insists on reducing funding to local authorities, which of course drastically impacts on the services they are able to deliver. We also know that the UK Government insists on increasing our foreign aid budget, even though it is a well-documented fact that huge amounts of this money is wasted by many foreign Government recipients on vanity projects or huge arms arsenals. Surely it is time to halt this misuse of public money and spend it far more wisely closer to home and make the lives of our older people a much better experience than has been the case so far.

David, thank you very much, and I was with you all the way—all the way, all the way—until that final paragraph. [Laughter.] And I would simply say that the difference between us is that, for me, social justice and providing people with good lives for them, for their families, for their loved ones doesn’t begin and end at home; it travels internationally. I popped into a lunchtime event today with a group of children from Hafod school in, I think, Mike Hedges’s constituency, and they were fundraising for educational opportunities for youngsters in parts of Africa, with an organisation helping, and they’d raised, I think, about £4,000 or £5,000—they were looking to double that and develop school facilities. What struck me was those young people there understood and articulated in their actions very clearly that their thoughts about what made a good world didn't stop in the Hafod, it didn't stop in Swansea—it extended right around the world. And I think that's where I differ. We can do both, David—[Interruption.] I don't think I can. Sorry, David, I would otherwise.

You can't, sorry. It's a statement, sorry. 

Unfortunately, in a statement, I can't. But I think you'll continue to make your case for a focus on home, and I'll continue to make the case for, 'We should do these good things at home and overseas as well.'

But let me pick up on some of the points where I think we had real agreement there. You mentioned about the transformation—how do we take these good examples like the Prince Philip? I think I mentioned in my earlier contribution that the Prince Philip example and many others that I see as I travel around Wales—it's not an isolated example any more—are driven by ICF funding, and sometimes driven, I have to say, by health boards and local authorities without ICF funding doing it themselves. Sometimes those, through their regional partnership working now, have decided to roll that out. If you look, for example, at the Cwm Taf stay well at home, without a lot of additional funding, they've rolled that across large areas, but not entirely. So, we hope that the transformation programme we have, backed with £100 million of funding, will allow these to be upscaled to regional level and then replicated as well. So, what is great and novel becomes commonplace and mainstreamed. But, of course, the ICF funding of £80 million this year, and the transformation fund of £100 million over the next two years or so, are as nothing compared to the £9 billion within the combined health and social care budget. So, if we can actually get this stuff mainstreamed into that budget, into the way of thinking, then we've really broken the back of this. And I start to see—the Cabinet Secretary for health and I, who jointly go on endless tours of the country speaking to the regional partnership boards—we absolutely see now that they are owning this process themselves increasingly and are coming to us saying, 'Here's what we think we can do, not just with additional funding, but as part of core funding, because that will make the difference for older people.'

But we also have, of course, underpinning this the social services and well-being Act. I can take no credit for that—it was put in place by predecessors in the previous Assembly—but I'll tell you, when I visited a Hafod residential facility in Caerphilly about two months or three months ago, the young chap who showed us around there, Geraint, took us to visit the family and an individual with dementia: wholly different from what you might have seen years ago, because the gentleman he introduced me to who had progressive dementia—they knew from discussions with him, but also with his family, that he was an exceptionally keen gardener, always had been. So, they'd worked out the individual plan for him—the individual plan, in line with the social services and well-being Act—an individual plan with him and with his family that meant that he was actually the one who took charge of all the gardening around the place. The benefit for him in terms of independence and dignity and the status that he had, that he wasn't regarded as somebody to sit over there quietly—he didn't require masses of medication and so on there; he was actually part and parcel of the running of that facility, important to it—and his family loved it and he loved it.

So, we are starting to do these things practically, but there are other things we can do as well. So, for example, we have, as well as the RISCA regulations that we've currently been taking through this place, an ongoing care home improvement strategy that will—. It's not to say we get to a point and that we accept it—it's a constant improvement, and I hope that many Members here, as they go into residential homes nowadays, will see the difference in approach that is being done. And on top of that, we add registration of the domiciliary care workforce and we'll move on to registration and professionalisation of the residential home workforce. All of these things will have a material impact on the quality of life of our older people.

And then, for those who live independently in their own homes, it's the capital funding that the Minister for housing and I announced recently that will allow local authorities to actually work with housing associations with capital money to provide dementia-friendly communities, for example. So, it doesn't have to be necessarily in a residential home, it could be in a cottage where they are supported to live independently, with the wraparound digital provision that keeps an eye on them and so on: new ways of thinking, focusing the money on the right outcomes. And to come back to Dai's point, we will not get there overnight, but this is a different way of thinking that puts the person at the centre of it—they're wishes, they're aspirations—and then you build it around them, and we're starting to do some really interesting things.

Thank you very much, Minister.