Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:35 pm on 9 October 2018.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:35, 9 October 2018

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the UKIP group, Gareth Bennett 

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 1:36, 9 October 2018

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, there's been a lot of publicity recently over the issue of food labelling. As you will be aware, there have been some tragic cases where people have died, quite possibly due to lack of information on the label of a food product that they consumed. Do you agree that, as a matter of course, there should be clear labelling for food products in Wales so that all the relevant information is readily available? 

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP

Thank you for that very definitive answer and, of course, I entirely agree with you. Now, another related issue is the one of halal meat entering the mainstream food chain. As you know, halal meat, some 20 per cent of which comes from animals that are not stunned before they are slaughtered, is a growth industry in the UK. One issue related to this is that halal meat is only allowed for religious reasons, so that its consumption should be confined to those who have a religious belief that they need to eat halal meat. In other words, halal meat consumption should be confined to practising Muslims. But we know that, increasingly, food retailers are offering halal food as a normal part of their menu. Sometimes, it is hard even to see the labelling of halal food as such. So, you could enter a takeaway shop or a restaurant and find that you're eating food that you later discover to be halal, which was not clearly labelled as such on the menu. Is there a case that we need to adopt much more stringent measures over food labelling here in Wales so that people who are not practising Muslims do not unwittingly end up eating halal food? 

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:37, 9 October 2018

Well, I think people do understand and are able to make a choice. What shall we have next then? Should we insist that food is labelled kosher in order for people who are not Jewish to avoid eating that food? Should we label food, for example, so that it is acceptable to those who are Hindus, those who are Buddhists? Well, yes, we need to label food as accurately as possible, but I certainly don't take the view that, somehow, halal food should be singled out compared to other dietary regimes and other religions. If you're going to suggest that about Muslims, are you going to suggest the same about Jews? 

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 1:38, 9 October 2018

I take the point that you raise, First Minister, but there is no evidence that kosher food is entering the mainstream food market, but there is some evidence that halal food is. So, that is the reason why I raised the issue specifically of halal food. Now, I don't think we should be downplaying this issue. I remember that we had a scandal over horse meat a few years ago, and I think this lack of labelling of halal food has the potential to be, if anything, an even bigger scandal.

Now, your Government has talked about—[Interruption.] Your Government has talked about animal welfare in the past and, to be fair, you have done things in that line. The British Veterinary Association, the RSPCA and other organisations have called for an end to the non-stun slaughter of animals in the UK, which they say is cruel and painful for the animals being slaughtered. There has also been considerable academic research backing up this view. Now, it has already been banned in Denmark, Sweden, Iceland and New Zealand. It is now UKIP policy to ban the practice of non-stun slaughter entirely here in the UK. Would you agree that that is actually the best policy for the interests of animal welfare in Wales? 

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:39, 9 October 2018

No, and I do regret the fact that he, again, singles out one religious group he particularly dislikes. He starts with Muslims, he will move on to the Jewish people, he'll move on to Hindus, move on to Buddhists, because they're not exactly like him, and thankfully they're not—can you imagine a world of Gareth Bennetts, the kind of world that it would be?

The reality is that we are an open and tolerant society. We have in Cardiff one of the oldest mosques in Britain. The population that we have here of people who are Muslim has been integrated in our society for many, many, many decades and are respected for the contribution that they have made to Welsh life—a contribution, I have to say, that goes well beyond that which UKIP or the Member has made.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:40, 9 October 2018

(Translated)

The Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, yesterday I was with the other First Minister, of Scotland. Anyone who visits Scotland and the Scottish Government nowadays comes away with a sense of a country that is confident, a Government that is effective and a leader that is respected in Scotland and further afield. Yesterday, when the Scottish First Minister called for any Brexit backstop affording Northern Ireland a special single market status also to be extended to Scotland, it was reported as major news by all UK media. Do you as First Minister of Wales echo that demand for Wales, and when you speak on these matters, why does no-one seem to take any notice?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:41, 9 October 2018

I don't agree with what the First Minister of Scotland has said. I think all you do is shift the problem from the border in Ireland to the border between Scotland and England. The problem is then transplanted.

The real issue that we must keep sight of here is that it's important that the UK and the Republic of Ireland are within the same customs union and have the same arrangements with regard to the single market.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

First Minister, your claim to be a strong voice for Wales would carry some greater weight if it wasn't for the fact that you're leaving the office of First Minister at this most critical time in our history and, within a matter of days of your announcing your intention to do so, your Government, led by one of your would-be successors, in stark contrast to the courage of conviction shown by the Scottish Government, caved in to Westminster in relation to your own continuity Act. Now, seeing as you're supporting the Scottish Government in their action at the Supreme Court, can you confirm that any proposal to repeal your continuity Act will be held in abeyance until a ruling is made, and if the court finds in favour of the Scottish Government, instead of ripping up the Act, will you declare your rather squalid deal with the Westminster Tory Government dead?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:42, 9 October 2018

The reality of the situation is this: it is axiomatic in Plaid Cymru that somehow the people of Wales are misguided because they don't vote for Plaid Cymru and for him as First Minister. The reality is they have put my party in power in every election in this Assembly, and the reality is that we sit here as a Labour-led Government, of course with others within this Government.

No, I don't agree with what Scotland has done. We have come to terms with the UK Government. We expect those terms to be kept. What happens if the Scots lose the Supreme Court battle? They have nothing. They have nothing. We have an agreement. The Scots will have no agreement at all, and that, we think, is a far better prospect as far as Wales is concerned, rather than effectively playing blackjack with the future of the union.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:43, 9 October 2018

You're being outflanked by the Scottish First Minister. You're even being outflanked by Northern Ireland, who don't even have a First Minister or a Government or an Assembly. It's less of a surprise, perhaps, that you're being outshone by the Government of the Republic of Ireland; after all, they're an independent state, and there may be a lesson for us there, First Minister. I was very pleased that Irish diplomats were able to confirm to me at the weekend that they will now be reopening the Irish consulate here in Cardiff. Are you able to confirm, First Minister, that your Government—. He laughs. He thinks it's amusing, but this is an important development in terms of our key partner here. Are you as First Minister able to confirm that you will reciprocate by opening an office for Wales in Dublin, and, to be clear, I don't mean a desk tucked away in a corner of the British embassy?

And finally, First Minister, given the Irish economy last year grew around three times as fast as the rest of Europe, and five times as fast as Wales, do you think that the Irish view with envy the economic success story that Wales within the union has so evidently been and deeply regret the economic catastrophe that independence has proven for them?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:44, 9 October 2018

First of all, we have an office in Dublin. I'd expect him to know that. Yes, it is in the embassy, but the Scots are there as well. The point is the Scots are also in embassies around the world, as are we. So, the Scots have no problem with being inside British embassies when it suits them. I don't see a problem with that, as long as the presence is there. The consulate is coming to Cardiff because I kept on pushing for it. I've raised it in every single meeting I've had with Irish Government officials, with the Taoiseach himself, and with Irish Government Ministers, which is why it's come back to Cardiff, after all the work that I did in persuading them to do that.

Thirdly, yes, the Irish economy has grown, but from a base that was exceptionally low in 2008. Ireland was on its knees in 2008, the economy was wrecked, people were in huge debt, the banks were in a situation where they were going to fold. They were in a situation where the housing market had collapsed. Yes, things have improved, but I know Ireland very, very well: it does do well economically, it's got a strong profile around the world because of its diaspora, but it has no health service. If you want to go to Ireland to get health cover, be my guest, because health provision there is far, far, far inferior to what we have here. Things have to be paid for in Ireland that are free here. It's the reality, for example, that if you want to have a baby in Ireland, you pay. That's what happens there. The reality is the tax rates are higher, the cost of living is higher. Knowing Ireland as I do, I know that is the case.

And he doesn't address this fundamental point. He is honest when he says, 'I am in favour of independence', because that is what his party stands for. I don't criticise him for that. I don't agree with him, but that is his position. But what he must address, surely, is the gap that we have between spending and revenue raising in Wales. There's a 25 per cent gap. That has to be addressed in terms of, if we were to become independent tomorrow, how that would be addressed. Where would the cuts be made? Where would he make those cuts? Because there wouldn't be growth over night. If he wants to make the case for independence, he must explain to the people of Wales where those cuts would occur. It's beyond debate that the revenue that we raise is less than what we spend. It's beyond debate, unless he's arguing that that's not the case. If that is the case, if we became independent, there's a gap there, how will that gap be filled?

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:47, 9 October 2018

(Translated)

The leader of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, can you explain to the people of Wales why the new contract for delivering broadband services has still not been rolled out?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

Well, that is a matter that we're taking up with BT. They are the only provider, of course—there's no competition in this market. And we are ensuring that BT will roll out that contract and provide the services that we've paid for.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Well, failing to roll out this new contract is another example of your Government's failure. This is the latest in a long line of broken promises. And let me remind the First Minister that the Welsh Labour party's 2011 election manifesto committed to ensuring, and I quote,

'that all residential premises and all businesses in Wales will have access to Next Generation Broadband by 2015'.

Well, that is clearly another broken promise by your Government. And I'm sure that Members from all sides of the Chamber will be able to give you examples of communities that are struggling with a sub-standard broadband service. Communities like Mynachalog-ddu in Pembrokeshire, Moelfre in Conwy and Newcastle in Monmouthshire are just a few that are at the back of the broadband queue, making those communities much more isolated and disadvantaged compared to other parts of Wales. First Minister, where has it all gone wrong?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:48, 9 October 2018

Well, first of all, we have 96 per cent of premises that are connected to superfast broadband. Where are the Tory promises on this? If the Tories were in power, they'd have done nothing at all. There was no broadband offer from the Tories, nothing at all.

Where is the UK Government? Bear in mind, we've kept our promise in a matter that's isn't even devolved. It's not even devolved. Once again, we have the Tory Government in London saying that Wales has to pay for something that, actually, it should pay for. Actually, this is infrastructure that should benefit the whole of the UK, but that is not the way that the Conservative Government sees it, because they are so obsessed with the market. For them, the market must determine everything. If we left that to happen in Wales, most of Wales would not have superfast broadband. We have intervened as a Government, we put investment in, and that's why you raise it, because of the shame that his own party has done so little.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:49, 9 October 2018

You have broken your Assembly election manifesto—that is quite clear from what I've just quoted to you. And your party's manifesto not only committed to ensuring that all residential premises and all businesses in Wales would have access to next generation broadband by 2015, but it went on to pledge that 50 per cent of properties or more should have access to 100 Mbps. Now, we know that Government will be making a statement on the new contract, but as we've come to expect from so many of the Welsh Government's schemes, the implementation of this has slipped and slipped and slipped.

This contract should have been in place at the beginning of this year, and whilst we are still waiting, schoolchildren like Grug Williams have to be driven a mile away from their homes near Gwytherin in Conwy to find a signal to download school work. Let me also remind the First Minister that the annual NFU broadband and mobile survey also showed that two thirds of NFU members asked in Wales said that they were not able to access sufficient broadband speeds, which has a significant impact on their ability to do business effectively and efficiently. So, with that in mind, First Minister, and in light of the very serious impact that the lack of adequate broadband provision is having on Welsh communities, will you now apologise for failing to meet your 2011 Assembly manifesto commitment? Will you also apologise to those people living without a decent broadband service in Wales for your Government's failure to properly deal with this issue?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:50, 9 October 2018

First of all, mobile technology is certainly not devolved. That is something the UK Government should be ensuring rolls out across the whole—[Interruption.] Let me explain, then. There's a difference between mobile technology and broadband. He said mobile and broadband. Mobile is not devolved. Mobile phone technology and reception is a matter for the UK Government. The reason why we have relatively poor coverage around the UK is because of the model that was adopted for mobile coverage in the first place. Too much money was being paid to the UK Government and not enough money was then available to actually invest in the infrastructure.

When it comes to broadband, he sits there as somebody from a party with no policy on this. I've seen no policy at all. We have delivered for the people of Wales in many, many communities up and down Wales a broadband service that otherwise they would never, ever have had. I speak to businesses all around Wales that are able to access it. He raised the 2011 manifesto. He raised the issue of school broadband. There is one promise that I know the people of Wales are delighted the Conservatives never had the opportunity to implement from their 2011 manifesto, and that was the 20 per cent cut in education funding that they keep on forgetting about.