I have enjoyed working with Professor McClelland on a number of matters, in particular when she was the chair of the emergency ambulance services committee. I do value her contribution to the health service here in Wales.

But, her view on the nature of a systemic problem is not borne out and not supported by a range of other people. I've referred to the OECD, and I've also referred to the independent parliamentary review that looked at the system that we have and whether the system itself is fit for purpose. Their challenge to us was not to say, 'You need wholescale, system-wide reform because the system is broken'. Their challenge was how we actually use the levers that we have available to us to set a proper policy direction and deliver against it. There's a difference between delivering and whether the system itself is not fit for purpose. And the robust policy, the review and improvement of that, well, we've seen that with the parliamentary review and with 'A Healthier Wales', and if you look, for example, at the NHS Wales awards, you will see innovation taking place within our system. You will see evidence being used to generate new policy initiatives to generate new and better practice. That is exactly what we should have. That is what I expect for our system as we deliver on the joint plan for health and social care in Wales, and I am determined to do so.