The next item is item 6, a statement by the Minister for Environment on Wales's recycling performance, building the foundations of a circular economy. I call on the Minister for Environment, Hannah Blythyn. 

Diolch. The recycling of waste is a Welsh success story and one for which every citizen of Wales should feel a sense of pride. Since devolution a comprehensive package of Welsh Government policies, funding and partnership working has resulted in our municipal recycling rate increasing from 5 per cent to 64 per cent in 2016-17. Last Wednesday the recycling figures for 2017-18 were published and showed that Wales's municipal recycling rate is now 63 per cent. I want to explain the reasons for this small drop and the action we are taking to drive up recycling performance in the future.

Welsh Government, local authorities, citizens and communities have worked in partnership to deliver a high recycling society. Nearly every household has kerbside collection for recycling, including separate collections of food waste. Since devolution we have spent almost £1 billion on waste and recycling in Wales. 

Last year, several local authorities struggled to maintain recycling rates for two principal reasons. Most of the drop is a result of us making the monitoring and reporting of wood waste recycling stricter. There has also been an issue with the functioning of a fuel from waste plant, resulting in the landfilling of some waste. This meant the authorities lost the opportunity to recycle incinerator bottom ash.

I'm meeting those councils that failed to meet the 58 per cent target for this year, and all of those at risk of failing to meet the 64 per cent target next year, to talk about specific plans for assistance in those areas. The Welsh Government is working with local authorities to ensure comprehensive plans to assist them to meet future recycling targets. We have maintained support for recycling through specific grants and funding a range of initiatives to support local authority efforts.

We've come a long way on waste in Wales in what is a relatively short period of time, but improving recycling rates from here will require more concerted, intensive and demanding interventions. Welsh Government is spending £0.5 million this year working in partnership with local authorities and WRAP on a behaviour change campaign, as we know that more than half of the waste put in black bins is recyclable. We need to persuade the Welsh public not to put these materials in their residual bins but to recycle them.

The campaign has three parts: providing the right services for the public, making people aware of what they need to do, and enforcing the right behaviours if necessary. There will also be campaigns to persuade the public to recycle more, including one just after Christmas. And today I can announce a package of investment to assist local authorities in improving recycling and driving the circular economy.

Firstly, I am pleased to be able to commit a further £15.5 million investment over the next three years to enable three more authorities to align with our collections blueprint. This forms part of the collaborative change programme being delivered by WRAP, and will support the Vale of Glamorgan, Denbighshire and Pembrokeshire. In addition to this, the £2.8 million cut to the recycling grant to local authorities has been reinstated in the draft budget. Finally, I can announce £50 million over three years to support service changes and provide new infrastructure in Wales. I am clear that focusing on infrastructure investment is a top priority going forward. This will help to tackle inconsistency in what is recycled and the amount local authorities pay to recycle it, improve the quality of recyclate and boost the circular economy in Wales.

We're working with partners in local government to develop a new infrastructure procurement programme, which could include materials like mattresses, nappies, wood and textiles. I intend to work with partners on potential new statutory guidance to local authorities and will consult next year on our long-term approach to recycling targets, including looking at options around the penalties for failing to meet targets. New best-practice guidance will be shared to help every local authority reach recycling targets.

We expect these actions will get Wales on track to reach and exceed 70 per cent recycling by 2025. But we will not stop there. In 2019 we will consult on regulations under Part 4 of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 that will require businesses to separate their waste in a similar way to that which households already do. Next year, we will produce a revised 'Towards Zero Waste' and a route-map for a circular economy for consultation. Supporting our shift towards a more circular economy is our priority—a Wales where materials can be used again and again, creating added value and multiple benefits. We know that there are economic as well as environmental advantages. The Ellen MacArthur Foundation, WRAP and the Green Alliance have all identified that jobs and investment opportunities can be created in Wales as we move to a circular economy, and our economic action plan, which we published last year, recognised the dividends for our economy, jobs and skills.

The revised strategy and route-map will also reflect our aim to have a circular economy in terms of the materials we consume, such as plastics, and how we use, reuse, dispose of and reprocess these. Next year, our £6.5 million circular economy investment fund will be open to businesses to support them working towards a more circular plastics economy in Wales, and this should stimulate some innovation in this important area.

Some big, strategic interventions are planned on an England-and-Wales basis, including changing extended producer responsibility for packaging, which would cover some of the costs to local authorities of managing packaging materials. It would also tackle waste at its source, reducing the use of excess packaging by producers, and increase the use of recycled and recyclable materials in packaging.

Work also continues on the development of a deposit-return scheme. WRAP has already analysed the potential impact of a DRS on recycling rates and local authority income from recycling in Wales. We have asked them for more detailed modelling by the end of the year. I have also commissioned an analysis of litter types and levels in Wales, so we have a baseline against which any DRS could be measured. This final report will be published in spring 2019. We've asked the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to boost the sample in Wales for a survey they are carrying out on public attitudes to a DRS, and to make sure children in Wales are included in the research. We will consult, alongside UK Government, on both EPR and DRS, before Christmas, providing our unique Welsh input and ensuring the proposed approaches work for Wales.

Over the past 12 months, we've been pushing the UK to really set the agenda on single-use plastic. This is an area where we feel action at a UK level is the best course of action. My colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, has discussed this issue with the Chief Secretary of the Treasury on three occasions. He has shared with UK Government our positive view of the role of tax in reducing the use of single-use plastics, as well as our view that any tax should take the broadest form possible—not just looking at a single item like coffee cups.

We promoted the HM Treasury call for evidence in Wales to help ensure the views of Welsh businesses and organisations were taken into account, and that we have assessed the evidence submitted by stakeholders in Wales to help identify the potential benefits, issues and impacts of introducing new tax measures in this area. We continue to work with UK Government to discuss progress on potential taxation measures and to contribute Welsh views about the development of options that reflect Welsh priorities.

We expect to see the Chancellor deliver on the expectations he has raised in his budget next week. And we expect to be closely involved in any implementation arrangements. Any plastics tax must be co-designed with Welsh Government. If nothing is raised in the autumn budget on 29 October, this will be a significant missed opportunity, and we will consider again what can be done on a Wales-only basis with the levers we have, including the possibility of a Wales-wide levy or charge on single-use beverage containers.

Wales leads the way on recycling in the UK, but we are not complacent. We want to continue to work together with WRAP, local authorities and the people of Wales to move from first in the UK to first in the world. I am sure that Members across the Senedd will join with me in reflecting on our success to date and setting our sights even higher in the future.

I do note there is a broad consensus in this Chamber on this area of public policy and I in no way want that to end. I would, however, emphasise in my response to your statement the need now to ensure a qualitative assurance as well as quantitative.

I don't know if you've seen the recent audit office report into the recycling of plastics—this is in England—but over 50 per cent of our plastic waste is sent abroad, now mainly to Thailand and Malaysia. It was formerly China, of course. There is no proof that packaging sent for recycling is actually recycled, incineration has increased so much that there is a risk it will overtake recycling, and there are low inspection rates and a high risk of fraud in England. I think your colleague, Jenny Rathbone, made an excellent intervention—I was not in the Chamber, but I was able to listen to it in my office—along this sort of line, and I do think that we are now moving to require that sort of qualitative assurance, so that the public remain on board with this very, very important area of public policy.

So, I would ask, as Jenny Rathbone asked for a statement earlier, whether any particular examination of the practice in Wales—and whether NRW has done anything in this area of quality control. I think it's important that we hear your plans there. I think the spread of best practice between local authorities is key and I think you're wise to use your grants to promote that, because I do think that having 22 local authorities trying to outcompete each other sometimes, in terms of the level of recycling they achieve, is really good, but they don't want to be reinventing the wheel when they're doing it. So, we need that balance. And I'm pleased to see that one of my own local authorities, indeed, the one I live in, the Vale of Glamorgan, is to receive some special grant funding in this area.

I do think it's important that we go beyond domestic waste recycling and start to look at business waste. So, I do welcome the fact that there will be regulations to require the separation of waste at business premises. I think consultation on regs is very important, but I do think there should be participation also with the business organisations very directly involved. Because as we move to a truly circular economy with zero waste, the business sector is going to have to be a bit like some of those local authorities in coming up with their own solutions and being innovative, so we need it fully on board for that. So, I would ask what type of consultation do you plan and can it go further to be genuine participation? Because that would transfer them immediately into key allies if we do that well. 

Finally, on the deposit scheme, I'm not quite sure whether the Welsh Government is now committed to a Wales-and-England approach. I think we need clarity on that. Although work has been done in terms of your own pilot study, I think we would quite welcome a combined approach if that could really be effectively given, because the infrastructure costs—we can look internationally—can be very high. We really need to be sure that this type of scheme will work. It needs to go across all materials; I was pleased to see in England they are looking—plastic is the one most commonly talked about—at other materials as well. So, I would like a bit more detail on that about how open you are, or is it now your preferred option to work closely with the UK Government and to do that, obviously, in a fully participative way as well so they learn from some of our experience? But, in general, this is an area of work where we shouldn't really have great partisan divisions for the sake of it. In driving up standards and especially ensuring quality, you will have our support. 

Diolch. I think the Member is right to point out the consensus there is on this issue, not just within this place, but, I think, within the wider community and country as well, as we've seen awareness of recycling and the need to tackle the problem of plastic grow ever and ever in terms of the public consciousness. 

You talked about what my colleague Jenny Rathbone raised earlier in business questions in terms of plastic waste and forward prevention. You're right to say the audit office report relates to England. In Wales, I can say that we do not currently have any current investigations into plastic packaging waste exporters. There are three exporters in Wales that have all been inspected and audited in 2018 and there aren't any specific concerns or suspicion of fraud.

But you're absolutely right, the answer to this is to have good infrastructure at home to treat the materials we collect and collect the materials in the best way that guarantees high-quality materials to be reused and reprocessed, which I'm absolutely clear now is a priority for us in this area in Wales. We need to be developing that infrastructure to enable us to do that, to not only get it right on the environment but to boost our economy at the same time.

You talked about the consultation going forward and the importance of real participation. I'm clear, if we're going to get to where we want to be on this, that we have to work collaboratively and we have to work together. I've been on a number of panels—I mention no names—with different stakeholders, and people will say, 'The emphasis should be on the consumer', 'The emphasis should be on the producer', 'The emphasis should be on Government.' But, I think the emphasis should be on all of us. We're only going to get to where we need to be by working together on that. So, I'm keen that any consultation, going forward, on businesses going forward to separate and collect their waste in the way that householders currently do does have participation from businesses to make sure that we get the right result for Wales in the long term and for future generations. 

I think we've been clear from the outset, in terms of the deposit-return scheme, from the work that we've done, that it is considered the best approach, or the least complex in choosing a process for both businesses and consumers, and particularly given our porous border between Wales and England, to look at a Wales-and-England approach, which is what we will do with this consultation on DRS. The EPR consultation will be a consultation for both Wales, England and Scotland. With the DRS consultation, I think it's a Wales-and-England-wide consultation, but with specific Welsh input into it to make sure that it actually caters for our specific needs, because we are in a different position, perhaps, from some of our counterparts elsewhere, in England—not just in terms of where we are with our recycling figures, but also the statutory requirement on our local authorities, too, to make sure any approach we take in the future best complements that and doesn't have any unintended consequences for us. That's why it's right not just to target plastics but a whole host of materials as well. 

Can I thank the Minister for her statement? Certainly, we need action. Some of us would agitate for more urgent action than others, I'm sure, but there's no doubt that we need to tackle the plastics epidemic that we're facing as a society—a global society—these days. And as positive as the local authorities' record has been in terms of recycling over recent years, it is disappointing to note the flatlining, or the drop-off, albeit with some of the explanations that you've given in your statement. But I think it does underline now that the low-hanging fruit has been picked and this is where we get to the hard yards. And, of course, this is where we get to the real action from policy makers as well. And the show-stopping statistic from the Marine Conservation Society that there could be more plastic than fish by weight in the seas by 2050 I think is quite sobering, and it's one that probably needs to be at the front of our minds when we consider this particular issue.

Now, we've already touched on the increasing concerns regarding where our recycled plastic waste actually goes. We know that two thirds of the UK's plastic package waste is exported by an export industry that was worth around £50 million last year and that the Environment Agency is currently investigating allegations that include exporters fraudulently claiming for tens of thousands of tonnes of plastic waste that might not exist, UK plastic waste not being recycled and being left to leak into rivers and oceans, and illegal shipments of plastic waste being routed to the far east via the Netherlands. So, my first question to you, really, is: what assurances can you give us regarding where Welsh recycled plastic is ending up? Is there any Welsh involvement in the Environment Agency's investigation and are you confident that our plastic is being dealt with as it should be?

Of course, all of this increasingly shows that, rather than just recycling, we really need to seek to prevent the use of plastics, particularly single-use plastics, in the first place. And a levy on single-use plastics to work alongside a deposit-return scheme for bottles and cans has been a longstanding Plaid Cymru call for many years now. We're still waiting to get to that point where it is being implemented, and we've heard reference over a number of years in my time here in the Assembly to how this has worked in other countries: over 98 per cent of bottles recycled in Germany, over 90 per cent in Norway, Sweden and Finland, et cetera, et cetera. 

You say in your statement that you'll consult alongside the UK Government on both the extended producer responsibility and deposit-return schemes before Christmas, providing what you described as unique Welsh input to ensure the proposed approaches work for Wales. My question to you, therefore, would be: if the UK Government decides against a UK-wide deposit-return scheme, will you, as Minister, legislate on a DRS for Wales in this Assembly term? I'd like to hear your views on that, because, clearly, this has been something that we've been calling for for a long, long time, and I'm trying to get over that there is a sense of urgency here. And if they, as a UK Government, don't choose to pursue it, then how soon will you be pursuing that as a Government and as a Minister?

You also say that you continue to work with the UK Government to discuss potential taxation measures to tackle single-use plastics, and you say that if nothing is raised in the autumn budget next week then you'll consider again what can be done on a Wales-only basis with the levers that we have here. So my next question would be whether you would commit here today to ensuring that there is a levy, tax or charge in place to tackle plastic pollution in Wales in this Assembly term, regardless of what happens at a UK level, because it's those kinds of messages and it's that kind of clear direction of travel that we need to get the momentum behind some of these schemes that we want to realise. 

In your statement on 8 May, you said that you were working with Refill and Welsh businesses, charities and major events to ensure that there are water refill points and stations across the country. It would be nice to hear an update with regard to where you are with those discussions and also whether you'll consider working with local authorities to put in place drinking water fountainsin public spaces, which is something that we would all want to see. And, following, of course, the UK Government's proposals to ban plastic straws and plastic-stemmed cotton buds and plastic drink stirrers in England this week, I think, will you, as Minister, consider introducing a similar ban in Wales? 

Can I just apologise in advance for my persistent cough? It's one of those coughs that is an absolute hazard in this profession—it starts really persistently when I start speaking, which is not helpful, so I apologise if my answer is interrupted or is a little bit more truncated than I'd hope it to be.

A deposit-return scheme, we've heard that there's a clear appetite for it in this Assembly and there is enthusiasm from outside it, and I've spoken with our counterparts across the UK on this and also with counterparts across Europe too, about how they've got that into place and where they've had schemes working for years and years. But, I think, why we say unique Welsh input, I think we need to see what the outcome is of the consultation, too, and look at the things that are raised in the studies, because whilst I can see the positives of it in terms of how it would increase our bottle recycling rate and also higher quality recyclate, I absolutely can't express enough that we need to not see it as the whole panacea; I think it needs to be coupled with other actions as well. But, it's definitely something that we need to explore and how it fits with what we've currently got in terms of our kerbside collection. Because I'm aware that many of those European countries that have very successful DRS schemes, may not have kerbside collections. So, they have a different culture where people are used to going to a place to get rid of their recycling anyway, so it's actually how we bring that. And that's why I think looking at it in a unique Welsh way and making sure that it works for us going into the future is really important. But it's something that I'm committed to getting the best results on for us in Wales.

In terms of refill, I'm pleased that we are progressing on that in Wales. We now have appointed a Wales—. We have a refill co-ordinator for Wales now, to specifically sign up businesses and organisations across the country, and the Refill Wales app is up and running. It's something that I'd welcome Members' support and help with promoting in your constituencies and in your areas. When I've been out and about, I go in and they've got a water urn there and they're doing refills, but they're not aware of being part of this network and this structure, which could bring benefits to their business as a whole, anyway. So, anything anybody else in this Chamber can do to support and promote that cause, because it's one way to produce—. It's healthy rehydration, but it also cuts down on single-use plastic as well.

I know that there's an appetite also for water fountains and I think that's certainly something worth exploring, but as you said before, that comes with a higher cost for local authorities and maintenance. It's something we need to look at properly to see how we could possibly do that, but also, we can't bring old water fountains back into use, because a lot of them have lead pipes. So, that probably wouldn't be advisable.

In terms of tax, I expect and hope that something will be in the budget next week. Expectations have been raised that the UK Government is wanting to go down this route, and we're obviously keen for them to do that. It's certainly something that we've made clear from the outset, that should they choose not to go down that route, then it's certainly something we could look at using the levers at our disposal for. But, clearly, that's a conversation that I need to have with my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance before making any firm commitments in this place.

Since devolution, there has been an increase in our municipal recycling rate from 5 per cent to 64 per cent, which is phenomenal. It's driven by policy, but can I say, it's driven more by landfill tax, so it has put pressure on local authorities to ensure that they do recycle?

Recycling is, of course, only one of the three Rs to reduce waste into landfill. The others are 'reduce' and 'reuse' and I believe the other two are more important. Which is environmentally the better: use one plastic bottle 10 times or recycle 10 plastic bottles? The latter improves recycling rates. I would suggest that the former was environmentally much better, and I think that is an important point.

Those who create their own compost do not count against recycling, although, obviously, they're recycling and they're cutting down on the amount of energy used to move things to be recycled. I speak as someone who is very much in favour of not just a deposit-return scheme, but one where you actually reuse the bottles afterwards. Those of us from the Corona pop age group will be well aware of taking a bottle back and getting 5p or 10p—it worked. I think it is important that—. Plastic, too often, has no value, and that's why people are quite happy to throw it away. You wander around football grounds and other parks and you'll see plastic bottles being thrown because they're of no value. I think that we need a deposit-return scheme.

I also think that we ought to bring in some form of tax to level the playing field between glass and plastic. When I went to buy a bottle of vinegar a few weeks ago and it came in a plastic bottle, I was somewhere between amazed and surprised. The question is: should we be measuring recycling, or should we be measuring residual waste for incineration and landfill? Isn't that a better indication of how well we're doing? And would the Minister agree that that would be a better measure of environmental success, because otherwise we're penalising the reusers and we're penalising the reducers?

I thank Mike Hedges for his contribution and the insight into different vinegar bottles in the local supermarket. You raise a very important point with that anecdote as well, and the importance of the three Rs in the waste hierarchy. Recycling is at one end, and we've got reduce and reuse before that, which is why the emphasis on a circular economy is so important, and the number of reuse organisations that we're supporting is expanding across Wales. You referred back to the days of Corona pop. I think I'm just about old enough to remember it, although I don't think it's the right public health message when I said I was allowed to keep the change to buy a 10p pick-and-mix bag in the shop. But you said about the DRS and the opportunities, potentially, there to incentivise people to collect bottles, or that you hear tales from elsewhere in Europe where they have got DRS, where enterprising young people, particularly after large major events, go and collect the bottles and then return them to wherever the product return facility is, and get the tokens or the receipts back for it. So, the Member raises very important and valid contributions, which I'm sure will be considered.

Thanks, Minister, for your statement today. David Melding spoke first. He hoped there would be consensus. I think there is a fair measure of consensus, particularly on the plastic issue. This has become a matter of some public concern, with the recent tv programmes raising this issue, and I think many people today have talked about the problem of plastic packaging and what we can do about it.

Your approach, from what you've said today, is largely working with the UK Government. I think that's sensible. If it is possible to come up with a joined-up approach with the UK Government, then I'm sure that would be a very good solution, because of course the problem affects the whole of the UK. So, I do commend you in going forward with that joint approach, and maybe we'll need to hear further from Mark Drakeford about how his talks with the chief Treasury Secretary have gone regarding the tax.

But I note that Llyr Gruffydd did ask you specifically about the legislation. I know you've answered that, in that you can't really give a definitive answer at the moment. I'm just wondering about the issue of legal competence, because we are doing an inquiry into related matters on the environment committee at the moment. So, if the Welsh Government did have to do something on their own, just theoretically, I'm just wondering what levers are available regarding taxation. Obviously, we do have tax powers. What about also banning particular products, if there are similar products that don't have plastic packaging or plastic contained within them? Is there any scope for actually banning particular products?

Regarding the recycling issue as a whole, I think, of course, it's a good idea to try and attain high rates of recycling, but we do need to be mindful of possible adverse effects. There is a danger, sometimes, of not looking at the unintended consequences. I've mentioned before that we could have problems with fly-tipping if we go too far down the road of trying to enforce recycling. For instance, there's the issue of council tips. Sometimes you have contractors who get paid to clear out houses or clear out back gardens, and, of course, sometimes they're not able to access the council tip legitimately. Sometimes they will do so by falsifying addresses and things like that, but also there is the problem that sometimes they simply fly-tip. I note that fly-tipping has been on the increase in some Welsh county boroughs in recent years. So, I wonder if you do recognise that there can be—well, I wonder if you recognise that there is—a link between a too-strict approach to recycling and an increase in fly-tipping, and do we need sometimes to have a more balanced approach to this?

We do have a rather confusing picture in Cardiff. The council wants to push recycling, but at the same time, they have closed two of the four municipal tips. So, they are forcing residents to drive further in order to dispose of their recyclable material, which seems, in environmental terms, almost to defeat the object of the exercise. So, I wondered what your thoughts were on that. Diolch yn fawr iawn.  

Diolch. The Member raises the issue of enforcement and potential negative consequences with potentially increased fly-tipping. I'm not aware of any evidence of that. But one thing I would say is that I would go back to emphasise the importance of what I said in the statement about working with the public when it comes to behaviour change campaigns. When we talk about enforcement, we are talking about perhaps communication and education, rather than necessarily penalising people in the first instance. I know that it has worked in communities where face-to-face contact has made a huge difference in terms of talking people through what goes in your recycling, and why we're doing it, and how that cuts down your residual waste bin. We know that 50 per cent of the waste in our residual waste bins could be recycled, and half of that is probably food waste as well. So, if it was going into the correct bins and being taken in the weekly food waste collection, that would obviously cut down on any other concerns and issues.

You are right to say that the problem with plastic is not a problem specific to Wales. It's not just a problem specific to the UK. It is a global phenomenon, and there's a global awareness of it now, as you pointed out. I think it's important for us to emphasise that we are starting from—. You know, we face similar challenges, but we are starting from a different vantage point, in terms of where we are and the plastic that we currently recycle. As I said before, it's about making sure that we are not just talking about the products at the end of life, but at the start of life, and what has gone into that packaging, which is why working on extended producer regulation and strengthening that so that the producer pays more towards that cost and takes more of a responsibility is important if we are going to tackle this problem of plastic pollution. As I said before, and I wish to reiterate again, we are looking at a UK approach as things stand, but should that not go forward, then we are committed to using all levers at our disposal.  

I welcome the statement from the Minister this afternoon. I welcome the still very high rate of recycling form the local authorities, and I do accept that getting it that bit further now is going to be that much more difficult, so I'm pleased that the Minister is so determined to drive this forward. I think it's already been raised how important it is to have the public on your side, and I'd like to thank the Minister for visiting us in Rhiwbina, where the constituents are very enthusiastic about recycling, stopping waste and the circular economy—in particular, the children. A constituent in Rhiwbina, as the Minister knows, started an initiative that I have backed, along with Cardiff North MP Anna McMorrin, to talk to local businesses about reducing their use of single-use plastic items such as straws and take-away coffee cups. That is something that we've also launched now in Old St Mellons last week, and we are going to move on to Pontprennau. I wonder if the Minister could comment on the importance of that interaction between politicians, who are making the laws, but also meeting the public and meeting the children, in order to take these sorts of issue forward.

It is very important, as many people have said today, to recognise that recycling is only one bit of the issue, and reducing waste is very important, especially in packaging. I was thinking about this when I went shopping on the weekend in the Riverside farmers' market, which of course celebrated 20 years this weekend and is one of the really successful farmers' markets. Of course, you buy the fruit and you buy—well, you buy vegetables mainly—and, of course, there's no packaging for the vegetables, because they're all loose, as in many shops they are loose, but why do we have to have any of this packaging at all? It just struck me that buying the vegetables loose in that sort of way—. And also, in that market, there is a deposit-return scheme that operates, in that a couple of the stores take back the bottles and take some money off what you then buy. And so, in small ways, these things are already operating.

But, obviously, I think the rise of farmers' markets—and we've got one in Cardiff North as well, in Rhiwbina—is very important. I don't know if the Minister would like to comment on that.

And then, the deposit-return scheme is something I have supported for many years, and I do hope we will now, you know, really get ahead and do it. I just hope, if it's a Wales-and-England approach, it won't make it slower, really. And I would also like to hear the commitment that we will go ahead with it ourselves, even if perhaps England doesn't. I don't know if you can comment about that.

So, in conclusion, I think this is an agenda that we are united politically on and, most importantly, I think the public are very united as well. But I think that education and leading on this in schools, which a lot of the eco-councils do, is also very vital.

I thank the Member for her contribution. I was really pleased to come and visit Rhiwbina on what was a very sunny day, actually, when I came to visit. I've spent quite a bit of time over the past few months visiting those communities the length and breadth of Wales who are taking action to reduce single-use plastic. Because you're absolutely right that, yes, there's a role for Government to legislate and set the policy agenda, but we can only really get where we want to, as we've seen with recycling at the kerbside, if you've got that cultural public change as well. And I think it's really important that we act now to embrace that public opinion that's out there on this issue, but make sure that we act in a way that isn't piecemeal, but is holistic and looks at all the things I've said today in the statement in terms of our infrastructure, producer responsibility, in terms of the packaging you talked about, how we cut down on unnecessary food packaging, or how we move to packaging that actually has more recycled content or is more able to be reused, and also the role of a deposit-return scheme as part of that. And, yes, you're right that new recycling is one part of the jigsaw in terms of how we get where we want to get.

One of the things I think you said at the end there, which is absolutely key, is the role that children have to play, because we've got a really wide spread of eco-schools now across the country, and I'm keen that these eco-schools are central to our behaviour change campaign going forward, not just within their own schools, but within the wider community and the wider country too. Because I think the message coming from those children will be far, far stronger in terms of the impact that that can have than from any of us on these benches, from any politicians, or even from many parents. Because that pester power, where I've been in schools, and the children, they've no loyalty—they'll dob their parents in if they're not separating their recycling content as they should do, and then they'll go home and tell their guardians or their parents what they should be doing. So, I'm absolutely keen to actually involve children as much as we can in that campaign and to get the message across that it's our future and you need to help not only to secure it, but to sustain it.

Finally, Joyce Watson. 

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer.

I want to focus on the reducing aspect of the three Rs. Every one of them, of course, is useful, but I think we need to prevent things being recycled in the first place. And to that end, there are some fantastic examples out there. One of them is a charitable organisation in Pembrokeshire called FRAME, just down the road from where I live, actually, and they've been championing this approach for many, many years by refurbishing furniture and household goods and then upcycling them. And those goods would most definitely have previously ended up in landfill. And they set this agenda long before it was fashionable so to do, and long before this conversation had started. The consequence of that is that they have provided valuable employment to over 200 people in the local area every year, and they have a fantastic record of reusing or recycling 60 per cent, or in excess of 60 per cent, of the items that they collect. But added to that also, they are offering help to families who need it to purchase or repurchase those goods with a reduced price tag, but also individuals who want that purchasing option. And they will actually pick those goods up and then redeliver them to their new homes.

I think one of the things that's been missed here today is that, if we put furniture, or any type of wood that's been treated, back into landfill it will have had some toxic additives, and they are a major problem. I don't know if anybody watched the piece that was done about the waste that was found along the River Thames. Those pieces of furniture, of clothing, were absolutely intact, but the pollutants, you can almost be certain, were in the water. So, there will be paint, there will be varnish, there will be plastic coating from all of those items, so I think we need to add those messages in when we talk about why it is we need to prevent these things going in to be recycled in the first place. But also, you can teach people the skill of how to make something out of anything else, and FRAME does that as well.

There's another fabulous example of a business trying to reduce waste, and it's called Natural Weigh Ltd, and it's the first zero-waste shop in Wales. It's located, again, in my constituency, in Crickhowell. Natural Weigh encourages customers to bring in reusable containers when buying goods such as cleaning products or dried food, and it reduces greatly the need for single-use plastic. They've recently won the 'one to watch' award at the Social Business Wales awards. I hope, Minister, that you will join me in wishing them success in the Social Enterprise UK awards, which are being held next month. So, another good-news story.

But what really, I think, concerns all of us here is our stroll down the large retailers and the packaging that you know you cannot avoid, and that you can't recycle. So, I suppose my question to you is: how are you as a Government progressing in trying to send a message to those large companies that they really have to get on board with this circular economy approach, like the examples of the small businesses that we've heard here today? What is it, if anything, that we can do in terms of legislation to ensure that they stop their really bad behaviour?

Can I thank the Member for her questions? You mentioned two fantastic initiatives there, both FRAME and Natural Weigh, both of which I'm familiar with and have visited. I actually went to Natural Weigh and they had some lovely chocolate that I took away from there as well. I will absolutely join you in congratulating them on the award they've already won, and wish them every success in the UK awards. I'm sure it will be very well deserved as well, because when I went to visit them, to see their enthusiasm and how they've taken that idea from elsewhere, but now they're actually helping others across the country to take that, and share these shops, setting up far and wide—. I think you're absolutely right in terms of the role that reuse needs to play in terms of our route-map towards a circular economy, as we go forward and consulting on that, because it not only has environmental benefits, and economic benefits, but there's a whole social justice agenda that's part of it in terms of how it's enabling people and actually supporting people to be able to not just access furniture and equipment, but also to develop skills and employment opportunities in the future.

You've named two very good enterprises there, and of course, yes, we've got our £6.5 million circular economy fund, which we will target at those Welsh enterprises and focus it on more sustainable plastic producers—how they produce things, and the content that goes into it. With larger companies, we've seen a few setting the agenda and saying they're going to change, but it's in small steps. I think one of the key things for that is actually looking at this extended producer responsibility—so, the producer takes more of the responsibility in terms of the packaging that they are producing and how they're producing it, what's gone into it, what happens at the end of its life, and modulated fees as part of that, which will make producers have to think about and change their design and what they do with things afterwards.  

Thank you very much, Minister.