1. Will the Cabinet Secretary confirm whether her comments in the Farmers Guardian on 18 October, in which she stated that she will not consider maintaining some form of direct payment for farmers, even if the majority of respondents to 'Brexit and our Land' requested it, is the Welsh Government’s position? 224

Thank you. Welsh Government has always been clear the basic payment scheme is ending. As set out in 'Brexit and our Land', I propose to replace the common agricultural policy in its entirety. The consultation is ongoing and I will consider responses before making decisions. No changes to farm payments will be made without further consultation. 

Well, I have the article here. You've just told us that you will consider responses, but here you say,

'Asked whether she would consider maintaining some form of direct payment if the vast majority of respondents to the consultation requested it, she said: “No"'.

Now, only last week you were trying to rewrite history about what Sue Hayman had said in comments about payments in England, and today you're trying to maybe rewrite a little history here in terms of what you said as well. You're starting to sound a bit like a Welsh Donald Trump, I venture to say. And it does have the feel of a bad joke about it, doesn't it, really? When is a consultation not a consultation? Well, when the Cabinet Secretary has clearly decided exactly what she's going to do regardless of what anybody says. And that's not a good look, is it? You've really botched this process, I venture to say. First, it was your intervention with your letter midway through the consultation to farmers intervening and influencing the discussion then, and now you're saying that, regardless of what people say, you're not going to listen to their views. So, how can the public have confidence in this process, Cabinet Secretary? Do not your comments undermine the whole validity of your public consultation—or so-called public consultation? And does it not bring into question the integrity of the Welsh Government's engagement with stakeholders on this issue?

'Not at all' is the short answer to your question. Let me put a few of those points you raised right. As I said, way before the consultation started, we always said that the basic payment scheme would end. We believe that it's not the best design to support our farmers— [Interruption.] If the Member would like to listen. [Interruption.]

No, we can't, and that's not a helpful comment, I'm sorry. Cabinet Secretary. 

So if you want to listen, we said before the consultation started basic payment schemes would end. I've been clear on numerous occasions—you will have heard me say it at the Royal Welsh Show, you will have heard me say it in the Chamber, you may have heard me say it in committee, and I've certainly said it at my round-tables, so all the stakeholders were very aware of that. We have to support farmers in a better way. So, it is a consultation on the entire common agricultural policy replacement, as I've said. 

We've proposed two large flexible schemes: the economic resilience scheme and the public goods scheme, and that's what we are proposing in relation to income support for our farmers. In relation to Sue Hayman, it might be of interest to you to see the letter that Sue Hayman has sent to the president of NFU Cymru today, which has been copied to me, and then you'll see why I said what I said. So, I think that's a very important point for you also. 

You also referred to the open letter that I sent to farmers. Brexit is unprecedented. I think that was the word you used—that I had made an unprecedented move. It's perfectly appropriate for Welsh Government to provide further clarity on its proposals. We want an engaged and informed debate. And I have to say, I was really concerned when we brought this very long consultation forward that we'd see a bit of Brexit fatigue. It's great that we haven't. It's really good that we're engaging in a way—. You were at the event, as was I, at lunchtime hosted and sponsored by Paul Davies. I think it's great that we're having this consultation. But it is a meaningful consultation. If anybody's undermining it, it's you. I don't want that taken forward. I want people to understand that those responses that we receive—and we've had thousands, literally, in—. It doesn't close until Tuesday, and I'd be grateful if everybody could bring forward their views.

Cabinet Secretary, I was privileged to host the joint briefing session you referred to earlier with NFU Cymru and the Farmers Union of Wales, and I was pleased to see you at that particular event. Now, what I believe came across loud and clear at the event was that farmers across Wales are concerned that the Welsh Government is not listening to them, and this consultation is seen as a smokescreen for the Welsh Government to plough ahead and end direct payments regardless of the will of the agricultural sector or the businesses in the supply chain that would also be affected indirectly by these proposals. It's very important that any proposals going forward give food production the importance that it rightly deserves, provide parity for Welsh farmers and recognise the serious implications that these proposals could have on Wales's rural economy and, indeed, on our culture. It's crucial that the right balance is struck between land management and food production in order to protect the sustainability of the industry for the future. Therefore, will you now commit to listening to the views of Welsh farmers after this consultation closes in order to protect the sector for the future, and work with the industry to develop proposals that are fair, appropriate and that genuinely reflect the views of the farming industry and the wider rural economy here in Wales?    

I was very pleased to be at the event at lunchtime; I'm sorry I was not able to stay for the full hour. I don't know if you were listening, but what I heard the NFU and the FUW say, when they were asked the question whether they did feel we were listening, was 'yes'. Both of those people up on the stage, both the presidents, are part of my Brexit round-table. They both said there were no surprises in that document, because they'd sat round that table. One of them said to me, 'This is a time for radical reform', and what we are proposing is radical—I accept that—but we have to design the best system for farm support here in Wales, and that's what we are consulting on. 

I absolutely agree with you about food production, and if you look at the four consultations that are being held in the UK on agriculture, I think food production is far more at the heart of those consultations in Wales than in any other of the consultations.

I mentioned in my answer to Llyr that we've proposed two schemes. That will offer farmers the opportunity to create more resilient and more diversified businesses. It's absolutely right that we make them as sustainable as possible. We want them to remain on the land. We want them to compete in global markets. There is so much uncertainty around at the moment. We also want them to provide the public goods that we all need as a society which, at the moment, I wouldn't say farmers are being paid for. So, a lot of the public goods at the moment, they're not getting an income for, and that's what the public goods scheme will do.   

I think it's quite right that the Cabinet Secretary should have an open mind about the future of agricultural policy and the opportunity that Brexit provides, but I think she has to recognise that farmers in Wales are far more reliant upon the common agricultural policy than farmers in England; it can make up to 80 per cent of farm incomes in Wales, whereas the average in England is only 55 per cent. Therefore, it's very important, in my view, that we should take this step by step, and not rush into making wholesale changes in too short a time, which would make it very difficult to manage a transition. Given that 85 per cent of the farm subsidies that are paid are under pillar 1 rather than pillar 2, so therefore they are direct payments rather than for environmentally related schemes, it's quite difficult for me to see how we could move very quickly to making those pillar 2 type of schemes sufficiently robust to maintain current levels of farm income. Given that farm incomes are less than £20,000 on average and the amount of subsidy that is received in direct payment is on average about £16,000, I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will understand why a lot of farmers are very, very worried that they will lose substantial amounts of income, which they can ill afford, and tip their businesses over from small profitability into loss-making enterprises. That could have devastating consequences for the countryside in general.    

If I can just pick up on the two points I think Neil Hamilton was making, I think that you're right about the 80 per cent of farms and that being their income, and I think that tells you a story, and that's exactly what I'm saying: the common agricultural policy doesn't, I think, encourage or protect farmers from a lot of, particularly, the volatility that we've seen. What we want to do is make them more resilient. I don't think CAP has actually done that, if we have farms that are 80 per cent reliant on those schemes.

In relation to taking things step by step, you are absolutely right, and I've made it very clear that no decisions have been taken and neither will they be until we have all the consultation responses in. I've made it very clear there will be further consultation next spring. There will be no changes to payments at all. No schemes will be designed without a proper impact assessment. No old schemes will be removed before the new schemes are ready. So, I've committed to basic payment schemes for 2018-19, and then we'll be looking at this from 2020. I've even said—and I think I said it in the article to which Llyr has referred—that if we think it needs to be another year of transition or another two years of transition, then we will look at that. I'm very flexible around that. We'll see what comes in from the consultation.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.