Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:41 pm on 20 November 2018.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:41, 20 November 2018

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders, and on behalf of the leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Photo of Rhun ap Iorwerth Rhun ap Iorwerth Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Thank you, Llywydd. First Minister, other nation states within the European Union will decide at a summit this weekend whether the draft agreement on exiting the European Union works for them. Do you think it works for Wales?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

(Translated)

No, because I’ve always been in favour of remaining within the single market and within the customs union.

Photo of Rhun ap Iorwerth Rhun ap Iorwerth Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

We are a very long way from what was proposed in the referendum two and a half years ago.

Photo of Rhun ap Iorwerth Rhun ap Iorwerth Plaid Cymru

The agreement on offer is miles away, actually, from the promises made and voted on in June 2016. It probably doesn't please anybody at this point. I think we're agreed on that. Where we don't agree is how to protect Wales's interests in the event of the UK ceasing to be a member of the EU, however that happens. Now, the Supreme Court is busy considering whether a Scottish continuity Bill is within the competence of the Scottish Parliament. If the court agrees that it is, the Scots will have a powerful legislative shield against the Westminster power grab. Yet, while you have raised concerns about the nature of UK withdrawal as is being proposed at the moment, at the same time you're proposing this afternoon that we repeal the Welsh continuity Bill—the only thing preventing the Tories from legislating in devolved areas without this Assembly's consent. Now, given that the Supreme Court will come to its decision on Scotland within a matter of weeks, why not delay withdrawing the Welsh continuity Bill until we understand the lay of the land at the Supreme Court?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:42, 20 November 2018

Well, of course any ruling by the Supreme Court will have an effect on Wales. Let's say, for example, the Supreme Court were to say that the Scots have that power, then that would cover us as well. But if they say that there's no power to do it, the Scots have nothing, and we have an agreement. That's the issue here. We have an inter-governmental agreement that was reached by two parties. Part of that agreement was to withdraw the continuity Act. If we don't do that, we will have breached the agreement, and that means of course that we have shown bad faith as far as the UK Government is concerned and as far as we are concerned. It's also worth, of course, bearing in mind that that agreement was reached after many, many months of negotiation, and that agreement is something that cannot lightly be thrown away. Now, I know he takes the view that he doesn't like the agreement. I understand that; it's been made clear in the past in this Chamber. But we have an agreement as a Government to protect Wales, and we intend to make sure that that agreement is honoured, at least on our side.

Photo of Rhun ap Iorwerth Rhun ap Iorwerth Plaid Cymru 1:43, 20 November 2018

Wales has too few levers as it is, and what happens in taking away the potential powers of the continuity Bill for Wales is that you weaken those powers that we do have. The legal argument is that Wales had a stronger case in the Supreme Court than Scotland did.

But, moving on, just over a week ago your party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, told the German newspaper Der Spiegel that Brexit cannot been stopped. Since then, we've been told that what he actually meant was that Labour on its own can't stop Brexit. Now, opposition parties on the 'remain' side of the argument have been very open to the notion of working in a cross-party manner to halt Brexit. Rather than prevaricating—and, to be honest, I'm done guessing what's going on in Jeremy Corbyn's mind—don't you think that the Labour Party now should be entering into urgent talks with us, the SNP and other parties at Westminster to co-ordinate efforts to secure a fresh vote with 'remain' on the ballot paper? I know you've been advocating going down the general election route instead, but surely you can see now that what we really need is a people's vote?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:45, 20 November 2018

Let me explain where I think we are. First of all, I think there's been a complete failure of politics in Westminster. We know that, because we had a referendum in 2016 on an idea. People now can see what the outcome is, and I do think that there is every justification in saying to people, 'Now you know what the reality is, what do you now want to do?' That could be done either through a general election or a public vote. But what's clear is, that public vote would have to offer the option of whether to leave, on what basis to leave, or, indeed, whether to remain, on the basis of what we know now. I can't see, where politicians in Westminster have failed, or a Government in Westminster has failed, that there is anything wrong with going back to people and saying, 'The circumstances have now changed, what do you now want to do?' If they still want to leave, then, of course, they have the opportunity to say so. But I do think we need trust the people on this.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Leader of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, how do you consider the early stages of the new rail franchise to be progressing?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:46, 20 November 2018

With great difficulty, because there have been enormous problems, as we can see. I'm glad that Transport for Wales has issued the apologies that is has. It had been affected by storm Callum and it has inherited quite an elderly fleet. But we did say—we were honest at the start—it would take some time to replace the trains that we wanted and to get the kind of service that we want to provide to the people of Wales.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

First Minister, only a number of months ago, your transport Secretary stated that the new rail franchise would be transformational. We are now just over one month since Transport for Wales—[Interruption.]—since Transport for Wales took over the Welsh rail franchise, and already—

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

I can't hear the leader of the opposition, and I don't think the First Minister can as well, so can you please be quiet and allow the leader of the opposition to be heard?

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. We are now just over one month since Transport for Wales took over the Welsh rail franchise, and already we have a public full-newspaper-page-spread apology that you've referred to. Now, the apology states, and I quote:

'We know that you, our customers, deserve better from your rail services in Wales and the Borders, and this is not what you expected from your new operator.'

Unquote. And do you know why, First Minister, this is not what people expected? I'll tell you why. Because, yet again, it is your Government who is responsible for these services, and you are, once again, failing to deliver on your promises. You promised a high-quality, affordable and accessible train network in Wales, but the reality for passengers is that Transport for Wales's morning commuter train from Chepstow and Caldicot to Newport and Cardiff has been cancelled 16 times in the last 20 weekdays. Blaenau Ffestiniog, Betws y Coed and Llanrwst have had no trains all day on seven of the last 20 weekdays. And the 08:40 train from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury was cancelled on four days last week. This is an absolute shambles by your Government. So, First Minister, instead of public relations-inspired apologies, what measurable action is Transport for Wales taking to address this appalling start to the franchise?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:48, 20 November 2018

I have to say, this is weak ground for him. How does he justify the fact that Wales only gets 1 per cent of rail infrastructure investment? Nothing from him about that. How does he explain—? Yes, I know it's difficult, but it's true. How does he explain the fact that it was his own party that cancelled electrification west of Cardiff, despite the promise that was actually made? So, this is very weak ground for him.

But, we did say that we would transform the rail network in Wales. We didn't say we'd do it in a month. After 15 years of a franchise that was let before, after many, many years of underinvestment in the track, by a Conservative Government, we said that we would transform the network, but we were upfront and said it would take time to do it. Of course it would. Some of the problems on the trains are to do with the track, which we have no control over, and some of them are to do with the fact that 30 per cent of the rolling stock was impacted by storm Callum.

But I have to say to him, I don't think people will find it realistic when he says, after 15 years of rolling stock being used, that everything was going to change in a month. Really. We said that that wouldn't happen, but we have, of course, outlined a plan for the future and we will deliver a train Service for the people of Wales and keep our promises, unlike his party.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:49, 20 November 2018

Since your Government has taken over this franchise, services have got worse, and that's just in a month, First Minister. Now, the previous franchise agreement made no allowance for growth in passenger numbers and no provisions for extra train capacity. Since that franchise was first let in 2003, passenger numbers have increased by around 75 per cent. This created chronic congestion, a lack of appropriate rolling stock and years of underinvestment in relation to rail services across Wales.

You were asked repeatedly to publish the tender specification against which the potential rail operators were to bid in order to win the current contract. You have repeatedly refused to make that document public. Transparency is, of course, a key component in ensuring that the Welsh public have faith in Transport for Wales going forward. First Minister, in light of these deteriorating services, will you now release that tender specification in full. in order to help restore the public's confidence in your Government's oversight of rail services in Wales, and so that we can fully assess your Government's role in this continuation of failing of Welsh commuters?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:50, 20 November 2018

The document will be published. We always said it would be—suitably redacted, of course. But, I mean, really, four weeks into the franchise, he is critical—after 15 years of the franchise being run from Whitehall, after eight years of a Conservative Government when no extra money was put into rail investment in Wales, no extra money was put into infrastructure, no extra money was put into rolling stock, no money was allocated for electrification. We've seen the shambles in England with some of the franchises there. Chris Grayling has been hauled over the coals for it. There's no vision in England. There's no money being set to one side. Despite that fact that we have called for rail infrastructure to be devolved, with an appropriate Barnett consequential, which will be 6.2 per cent, the Tories have refused, because they're happy with a situation, it seems, where Wales gets 1 per cent of rail infrastructure investment. That is absolutely wrong given the fact that Scotland gets a far, far better deal. What we've offered the people of Wales is a vision for the future. We've said that by the end of next year, the pacer trains will go, there will be partial electrification, there will be new trains, they will all be air conditioned, and people will be able to experience a service that's far, far superior than the service the Tories tolerated for so long from 2010 onwards. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:52, 20 November 2018

(Translated)

Leader of the UKIP group—Gareth Bennett.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, there is an ever-increasing list of building projects in Cardiff dealing, supposedly, with student accommodation. In the last three years, there have been 23 separate developments opened, approved or put under construction in Cardiff. If you stand on the junction of City Road and Newport Road in Cardiff, you can see eight separate developments, either under construction or newly opened. There are also now instances in both Newport and Cardiff of blocks of so-called student accommodation where the flats are being rented out commercially. The flats inside these blocks do not go to students because there isn't a big enough demand from students. Do you think that a suspicious pattern may be developing whereby universities and private developers are gaining planning permission for so-called student developments and then deliberately changing their use afterwards?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:53, 20 November 2018

Of course, a change of use requires an application to the local authority. If he has any evidence at all to back up what he's saying, I'd be glad to hear it. 

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP

Well, it is, as you say, a matter for the relevant local authority in part, but I feel that this is an area where the Welsh Government should be concerned. I think you do have an important role to play in monitoring this. I have raised this issue with your housing Minister, who said she's keeping an eye on this, but she did point out that it may fall close to the remit of your planning Minister. So, there is a danger, in my view, that this could fall through the cracks. We do need to look at why there has been such an increase in this so-called student accommodation.

Currently, student accommodation is exempt from business rates. This is because the student flats are classed as domestic dwellings and therefore fall under the council tax regime rather than business rates. Business owners on Maindy Road in Cardiff recently found out that they will have to leave their business units to make way for a six-storey building comprising 143 student flats. There's a motor repair garage that has been at this site for 40 years. Not only will this change have a detrimental effect on the local community, but the taxpayer will lose thousands of pounds due to business rates not being paid by the owners of the student flats. Is this not a case, First Minister, of universities and developers exploiting loopholes in the planning rules simply to maximize their profits?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:54, 20 November 2018

He seems to think that people who live in private flats pay business rates. They don't. They pay council tax, just as students do. There's no difference. So, I can't see what point he's trying to make there. If somebody purchases a flat in a block of flats that has just been built, they pay council tax, not business rates. 

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP

I thank you for your answer, but there has been a certain amount of concern about this, even within Cardiff council. Cardiff council's planning officer, Lawrence Dowdall, has recently stated that Cardiff may now have an oversupply of student accommodation. Planning committee member Wendy Congreve, who is a Lib Dem member, described one recent development as 

'a cynical use of the planning process. It's nothing less than a commercial development through the back door and must be resisted. 

'We developed too many of this type of accommodation, and surprise, surprise they are now being turned into commercial, lucrative developments.' 

I think you do need to be concerned about this, because this possible flouting of the rules may affect your ambitions for affordable housing in Wales. Commercial developers, when they build new housing estates, have a legal obligation to provide an element of affordable housing. Developers building so-called student blocks are under no such obligation. So, you could have universities working with private developers to get their properties on the commercial market by the back door, while all the time avoiding the need to provide affordable housing. Do you think your Government should be having a word with the developers or monitoring this situation in any way?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:56, 20 November 2018

Well, I think he should be careful here, because he's effectively accusing universities of being part of a scam, in effect, without any evidence. I come back to the point I made earlier on: he has made suggestions, and I've not seen any evidence from him to back up any of his suggestions, apart from what he says, but nothing to back it up. But I'm pretty sure our universities are not engaged in commercial property development when they have many, many thousands of students to house anyway. We should celebrate the fact that Cardiff and other universities across Wales have been so successful in attracting students from around the world, because they add to the research and learning capacity of those universities and, ultimately, add to our economy. Universities are huge drivers of the economy because they attract so many students, and I've not seen any evidence that suggests that universities are deliberately trying to build student accommodation with a view to then changing the use of that accommodation to make money through commercial property.