The next group of amendments is group 11, and this group relates to reviews of determinations and appeals to the first-tier tribunal. Amendment 29 is the lead and only amendment in this group, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move and speak to the amendment. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Amendment 29 (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. As with amendment 15, amendment 29 highlights the actions that Welsh Government must take in order to prevent the Bill from causing unintended consequences—this time providing a duty to provide reviews of determinations and appeals to the first-tier tribunal. Again, my colleague Suzy Davies AM will highlight what importance this has from a constitutional perspective and the differences between 'must' and 'may'. We can all agree that Welsh Ministers should and would be bound by their duties if this amendment is passed. Therefore, Ministers must allow the right of appeal from the very beginning of the Bill, as this amendment would allow, rather than potentially kick this decision into the long grass. Thank you. 

Yes, thank you, Janet. Subsection 1 of section 6 of the Bill gives Ministers the power to make provision for reviews or for appeals to the first-tier tribunal against determinations as to eligibility for funding under the Bill. And I would say that this Bill needs to include a right of appeal, not merely permit Ministers to consider some time, when they have a moment, to include one. As a legislature, I don't think we've always thought about what our constituents might do when faced with a wrong decision—a miscarriage of justice, if you like, however minor. Too often, we leave them with something like judicial review as their only meaningful recourse for remedy, and that's not satisfactory. And in the absence of a thought-out appeals process on the face of this Bill, I really think we must oblige Welsh Government to bring forward the regulations to fill in that hole. Minister, you may think that there's not a significant difference between powers and duties in some cases, but actually placing a duty on you to bring forward an appeals process through regulation is a huge message to our constituents that you really worry about what happens to them if something goes wrong as a result of this Bill. And for that reason—it's one of the reasons I put my own backbench Bill into the ballot; I know it didn't get drawn, but—. What happens to our constituents when things go wrong really matters, and I would really like you to consider this amendment seriously, because I think it does add value to the Bill. 

The Minister to contribute. Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I can assure Members and constituents that there will be a process for reviewing decisions made in respect of a person's eligibility for the offer, and that we will be seeking to be open and transparent on how a person can challenge a decision made about their eligibility. In fact, there is a proceeding that already exists in respect of the offer in England, and if HMRC, if we take this Bill through, becomes the delivery agent for the application and eligibility checking system for the Welsh offer, we will seek to ensure that people here in Wales can follow exactly the same route, including the appeal to the first-tier tribunal.

Thank you for taking the intervention there, Minister. I'm grateful for that assurance. If you can give us some kind of steer—. Oh, can I ask you for another reassurance, then, that this would be one of the first sets of regulations you bring forward, provided HMRC are happy with what you intend to do?

Yes, and we'd be keen to do that. And those discussions with HMRC have already been ongoing, that we would mirror these mechanisms that they have with the appeal to the first-tier tribunal. And I'm happy to go back to officials and seek to ensure that this is amongst the first tranche that we bring forward, if that is of some assurance. 

Now, the intention of the amendment that's been put forward by Janet would appear to me to restrict somewhat the flexibility by which the Welsh Ministers would have to use their regulation-making powers in the Bill. Now, I'm not convinced that this wise. By inserting the word 'must' here in the Bill, we're binding Welsh Ministers to having to make provision in regulation for an appeals process to the first-tier tribunal, despite what I just outlined, that, if we take this Bill through, it will be there in the HMRC mechanism. So, I'm content with the current drafting, which means the Welsh Ministers will have these regulation-making powers, but their options in how these appeals are handled in future are kept more open. So, for the reasons I've stated, we can't support amendment 29, and I'd hope that other Members are also persuaded of the benefits of proceeding the way we suggest with this Bill, and not inserting what is such a restrictive amendment onto the face of the Bill. 

Janet Finch-Saunders to respond. 

I believe that my colleague Suzy Davies has made the relevant points, and I therefore ask that we move to the vote. 

The question is that amendment 29 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote, therefore. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, no abstentions, 25 against. Amendment 29 is therefore not agreed.

Amendment 29: For: 18, Against: 25, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected