The next group of amendments is group 12, and this group relates to review and reports on the effect of the Act and sunset provision. Amendment 30 is the lead amendment in the group, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the lead amendment and to speak to it and the other amendments in the group. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Amendment 30 (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I speak to amendments 30, 2A, 2B, 2C, 2D, 2E and 35. Although these seem a bit like diving into a pick-and-mix of review amendments, all of them are very important, and the main point we wish to raise is that nowhere in the Minister's amendment 2 does it say 'independent', or 'to lay before the National Assembly for Wales'. At the very least, we would have expected that any report should be both independent and available for the National Assembly, as the legislature, to scrutinise.

Turning to amendment 30, this is a complete alternative to the Minister's amendment. As I outlined in Stage 2, the split between the Minister's claims of the technicality of the Bill, as opposed to the very broad policy position within the explanatory memorandum and the draft administration scheme, is stark. By agreeing to scant detail on the face of this Bill, the National Assembly for Wales would be allowing the powers of the Executive to increase, whilst at the same time, indeed, limiting its own. The Minister throughout Stages 1 and 2 emphasised that the detail of the offer should be left to secondary legislation to allow for flexibility. However, subordinate legislation could change both the offer and the policy intent completely without the National Assembly for Wales using its function as a legislature to scrutinise it in depth. The first evaluation of the offer was also published less than two weeks ago, more than seven months after this Bill was introduced by the Welsh Government. It therefore seems to support the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee's observations that the Welsh Government is legislating for the childcare offer before the conclusion of the pilot programmes and the appraisal of the policy's effectiveness.

As to amendments 2A, 2B, 2C, 2D and 2E, these amendments seek to improve upon the Minister's own ideas about reviewing the Bill. The concerns we have around the transparency of the Bill and previous Welsh Government legislation are borne out through the seven powers provided to Welsh Government to make secondary legislation, contained within just 13 sections of the Bill. The National Assembly for Wales cannot have just 40 days to vote through unamendable subordinate legislation without meaningful consultation.

Throughout Stages 1 and 2, the Minister has sought to assure the Children, Young People and Education Committee that key concerns surrounding transportation between childcare settings, workforce planning, and the charging of additional fees, would be investigated, and the draft administrative scheme also makes some concessions on the details of the offer. We therefore welcome some of the concessions and assurances the Minister has made in these areas. For example, we are pleased that the Minister has committed to add research questions to the evaluation of year 2 of early implementation of the offer on transportation, as well as adding both the offer and additional charges to the draft administrative scheme. Yet there is still no inclusion of the National Assembly for Wales within the process of evaluating the offer and its effects. Listed before us within amendment 2C are just a few of the areas the Minister has refused to consider placing on the face of this Bill, and has instead either dropped, made promises about, or relegated to the non-statutory administrative scheme. It is also of note that the Welsh Government's own evaluation of early implementation of the childcare offer, published just two weeks ago, recommended that further research is needed, over a longer period of time, in order to provide conclusive evidence on impact.

We therefore contend that this amendment provides a framework for the National Assembly for Wales to also scrutinise the impact of both the Bill and the childcare offer. As a result, while the list within this amendment is not exhaustive, it serves to show that the wishes of the Assembly are respected, rather than downgraded, when the Welsh Government undertakes its review of the Bill. Moreover, the fact that the Minister has only promised to bring a copy of the draft administrative scheme before the CYPE committee in spring, but nothing else, should be a warning that this will not be laid before the Assembly. Moreover, we do not agree with the Minister's assertion that a five-year period will give the Assembly enough time to review the offer. The national roll-out will begin in 2020, therefore the Assembly should have been able to assess its adequacy from the start. Therefore, we hope that amendments 2A, 2D and 2E will be passed.

Finally, as Suzy Davies will also attest, under amendment 35, there is an option for the Bill to sunset, by allowing the Assembly to determine whether it has carried out its main duty as a mechanism to provide the childcare offer. As my colleague has noted in Stage 2 of the Bill, review clauses don't include the option of concluding whether a piece of legislation has failed to deliver on policy intention. First, a sunset clause will allow for the Act to be stopped if regulations on its functions are not introduced, and, secondly, it allows for the Act to be sunset if it does not achieve its policy intentions. Given the necessity of both, it is clear that such an amendment should be accepted in the case of a skeleton Bill, as that is what we have here. Thank you.

The Minister, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd, and can I just begin—

Oh, I'm sorry, Minister. I should have called Suzy Davies.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Amendment 35, we haven't covered it, so diolch i chi'ch dau. Can I just begin by saying that I was very grateful to you, Minister, for engaging with us on the question of the review? I think this was really, really important. I think core to the confidence in any review is this Parliament's ability, though, to help design it—to get answers to the questions that we think will satisfy our constituents' interests as well as providing better legislation, if you like.

I think Janet Finch-Saunders's amendments contain, as she said, an inexhaustive list of sensible and very relevant criteria, which is what I'd expect all Members here to think of as relevant and would expect to be included in any review. Of course, that list can be expanded, but simply reinforces that point that we, as Assembly Members, need to be satisfied that the review is robust enough, rather than just the Welsh Government. So, I hope you'll be open to extensions to, or inclusions in, that list as we go forward.

Now, amendment 35—Janet, very kindly, referred to this Bill as a skeleton Bill. You know my view: that it's got more holes in it than Steptoe's vests, and it's going to need really, really patching up with a list of regulations, which, of course, may or may not be effective for this to function as a statute. I was pleased to see in the Draft Legislation (Wales) Bill that the Counsel General acknowledges the merits of sunset clauses in subordinate legislation, and you, in fact, Minister, as previous Chair of CLAC, acknowledged the merit of sunset clauses in primary legislation, and I agree with you both. So, this duty to review—I think you said, Minister, 'pause and review'—newly introduced to the Bill doesn't include an option to conclude that it's failed on policy intention. And the inclusion of the sunset clause now simply allows for this legislation to be scrapped, if regulations either prove insufficient to perfect the functionality of the Bill or allows it to be scrapped if a review reveals that it's failing to achieve any of its policy intentions and would continue to fail to do so.

Now, I know you've been worried about HMRC, but the easy way to solve that problem is to bring forward the regulations to fill in the holes, because we don't want ineffective law hanging around in our due-to-be-codified system. So, this amendment simply gives this Parliament the right to get rid of it without waiting for Government to make that decision. It is very much—am I allowed to say the word 'backstop', Llywydd, in this Chamber? It's been a great worry at the moment. But that's what I'm looking at it as. [Interruption.] Yes. It's kind of somebody standing behind the wicket to make sure that you do bring forward these regulations, particularly as you're not very keen on the superaffirmative procedure, by which we are to do that. So, I recommend this to Assembly Members.

The Minister.

Diolch. Suzy, thank you very much. I'm happy to be tested on this and put some remarks on record as well, and thanks for your engagement in trying to take some of this forward in my own amendment here as well. 

Can I just acknowledge the welcome that you gave to the way we've already learnt and flexed some aspects of the administrative scheme very openly—said what we're doing, why we're doing it? We have brought, as I said, the framework forward already. I repeat it again, as the Chair is sitting right next to me—really happy to come in front of the committee in the spring and be tested on that administrative scheme, what more we are learning, and to do that on a regular basis, quite frankly.

But, look, we set out clearly in the regulatory impact assessment for the Bill our intention to review the extent to which the legislation will have achieved its objectives a few years down the line, and we will, of course, be doing that in line with good practice, and I'll give you some detail now. But I do think it's important that we leave sufficient time for the offer and the new system to have become really fully embedded before we conduct that thorough root and branch review. And it is important that parents and providers in the sector also have that time to adjust so that we're able to get a real picture of the way things are working across Wales. Now, it's this balance that my amendment, amendment 2 is attempting to strike. So, it may help Members—all Members—if I set out the timetable for review as I see it.

So, subject to the passing of this legislation, we anticipate these powers being commenced during 2019 to enable the necessary work to build and test the national application and eligibility checking system, with a view to rolling out the new system fully in 2020. We want to ensure that the new application and eligibility checking system is up and running for the full three years to enable that full, comprehensive review, which covers the period then between 2020 and 2023. After the end of that testing period, it is only reasonable that we allow reasonable time for the findings to be properly considered, properly analysed and for a review report to be written in the light of that. So, for a programme of this size, this complexity, this could take some time. So, we've allowed up to—up to—a further year, giving us the five-year period that is in our amendment. Now, if we can do it sooner, we will, but this time frame allows for the best possible thorough review of the system. It's for this reason that I don't support the other amendments here.

Members also will be mindful of the fact that we've committed to independent evaluation of our programme of early implementation. I'll turn to the wider full review as well. The report on the first year of early implementation was published last month. A report on the second year will be available next October. So, it's not a case of there being no evaluation and waiting for that full evaluation.

As for the detail that Janet would like to see specified on the face of the Bill about what the review will cover, I've already conceded, as has been mentioned, on some issues, including the transportation issue. I met with the Assembly Members, and we'll now be looking at that as part of the evaluation of the second year of early implementation. And on charges, I've also said that we'll keep this under review, and I set out our plans in relation as well to workforce planning. Now, I'd be very cautious about trying, however, to arrive at a definitive list of aims for the review of the full offer right now, because this is still evolving—there will be other things that people will want to see in there—before we've completed particularly the early implementation and seen the findings on the points that Members have already queried.

Now, I can also confirm that this review, the major review, will not be undertaken in-house and that we will appoint an external independent evaluation company. I'm keen to give them the broadest remit possible and not to fetter them, and as a consequence I won't be, I can't be, supporting their amendments 2B or 2E.

Now, amendment 35 is the sunset provision, attempting to insert that provision into the Bill. As I said at Stage 2, I'm not convinced of the need for such a provision in the Bill. I have concerns that a sunset provision would send the wrong signal to providers, to local authorities and to parents out there about our commitment as a Government to this offer, so I won't be supporting this amendment. But, I commend the Government's amendment 2 and urge Members to support this amendment, which puts in place that full and thorough review after a suitable and appropriate period.

Janet Finch-Saunders to respond.

I move my amendment.

The proposal is to agree amendment 30. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 30 is not agreed.

Amendment 30: For: 18, Against: 25, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

As amendments to amendment 2, amendments 2A to 2E will be disposed of first in accordance with the marshalled list. Minister, do you wish to move amendment 2?

Amendment 2 (Huw Irranca-Davies) moved.

Move formally.

Janet Finch-Saunders to move—

—amendment 2A.

Amendment 2A (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

Move.

The question is that amendment 2A be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 2A is not agreed.

Amendment 2A: For: 18, Against: 25, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 2B, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Amendment 2B (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

I move.

The question is that amendment 2B be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 2B is not agreed.

Amendment 2B: For: 18, Against: 25, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 2C, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Amendment 2C (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

I move.

The question is that amendment 2C be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 2C is not agreed.

Amendment 2C: For: 18, Against: 25, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 2D, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Amendment 2D (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

I move.

The question is that amendment 2D be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 2D is not agreed.

Amendment 2D: For: 18, Against: 25, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 2E, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Amendment 2E (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

I move.

The question is that amendment 2E be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 2E is not agreed.

Amendment 2E: For: 18, Against: 25, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 2, as amended. No, it has not been amended. It has been moved. The question is that amendment 2 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 32, no abstentions, 11 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

Amendment 2: For: 32, Against: 11, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed