4. How will the Welsh Government's review of gender equality help to improve outcomes for Welsh women found guilty of criminal offences? OAQ53097

We've been very consistent in the communications regarding the importance of gender equality, and I'm pleased to note that the draft blueprints for youth justice and female offending that have been developed will contribute to ensuring greater equality for those within or at risk of entering the criminal justice system in Wales. This is particularly the case in the draft female offending blueprint, which the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services will be speaking about just later this afternoon.

Thank you. I look forward to that statement. Leader of the house, I'm sure you'll be aware that women are currently discriminated against at every level of the criminal justice system. They're more likely to be arrested for offences that would warrant a warning if they were men, more likely to be refused bail, simply because they can't find anybody who is prepared to stand bail for them, they're more likely to be in prison for non-violent offences, and they're more likely to lose their home. As a result of women going to prison, over 17,000 children lose their home and are taken into care because it's women who look after the children, even if their men go to prison. All this, of course, was captured in the Corston report, which was published nearly 12 years ago, and there are very compelling arguments as to why we need to do something different. So, I hope that the statement we're about to hear is going to address the urgent need for women's centres, where women can get the services they need to address their offences. Often, they are both victims as well as offenders. At least half have been abused as a child and it's a vicious circle because it's the children of offenders who are more likely to become offenders. So, I hope that we will have—. I look forward to the Cabinet Secretary's statement and hope that we can take a progressive way forward and address this issue.

Indeed, and the Cabinet Secretary and I have had a very good working relationship over this and we've been working very hard on it over the last couple of years, actually, haven't we? And I think that the statement is very reflective of that. We're very keen that women are deflected from prison or the criminal justice system where at all possible, that we work hard with the judiciary, including the magistrates, to ensure that they aren't given—there's no unconscious bias in the sentencing. There clearly is at the moment: the statistics show clearly that women go to prison at a much lower level of crime than men, and the Cabinet Secretary and I have had many discussions about the issue around losing family and children and what happens in the vicious cycle you describe. And I'm sure he'll be covering off all of those issues in his statement later on today.

Leader of the house, in February, the former chief inspector of prisons called for a women's prison to be opened in Cardiff to allow female prisoners to serve their sentences in Wales. Lord Ramsbotham said it was deplorable that there is no provision in Wales and that female prisoners have to be sent to England, away from their families and their friends. I think it's not agreeable in this century, anyway. Do you agree with Lord Ramsbotham that—? What discussions have been taking place between the Welsh Government and the Ministry of Justice on providing a women's prison for Wales, please?

The Cabinet Secretary will be covering this, but I will just say, briefly, that I do not agree that we should have a women's prison in Wales, because having men's prisons in Wales has not stopped Welsh men being sent all over the UK. What we want is for women to be deflected from the criminal justice system, except in the most extreme cases of violence. So, we do not need a bigger prison that will allow us to house more women in secure accommodation. What we need is the right provision in Wales, so where somebody does need to be in secure accommodation, they are in a women's centre, where their children can also be. So, I agree with the sentiment behind what you're saying, that people should be locally housed and disrupted as little as possible, but I'm actually vehemently opposed to the building of a prison, which I think would only lead to more women being imprisoned rather than deflected from the system. But the Cabinet Secretary and I have had many robust discussions on this point, and I'm sure he'll cover it off in his statement this afternoon. [Interruption.] Spirited discussions, indeed.

Justice is yet to be devolved. That responsibility can't come to Wales soon enough, as far as I'm concerned. When it comes to the imprisonment of women, I very much agree with the Howard League for Penal Reform, who found that far too many women in Wales are being sent to prison and there is no facility here in this country. They say, and I quote:

'There is considerable scope to improve services and outcomes by developing a small network of women's centres in Wales and radically reducing the number of women sent to prison.'

Now, in addition to this network of women's centres, one way to radically reduce the numbers of women who are sent to prison would be to invest in probation services so that there can be real alternatives to custody. Given that probation is not devolved, and given that it's been practically half-privatised, how can you, in practical terms, influence this agenda?

We have had many discussions on exactly this point. I completely agree with the Howard League for Penal Reform. I've been a fellow traveller of theirs for many, many years. And that's exactly on the point of the discussion that we've been having. We are very keen to have the criminal justice system devolved as fast as possible, including the probation services. Probation services are absolutely essential to go with that, and this deflection from prison that we're talking about, you absolutely have to have those services in place and, actually, you have to have pre-criminal justice system provision in place, which is why we're looking to strengthen the youth service provision as well, because it's a set of things that go with this.

We need to ensure that fewer children go into care as a result of their mother's imprisionment for something, as I say, no man would ever go to prison for, and that, where they have got to go to prison—or be in a secure facility, rather—they are in small, specially-built, women-centred ones close to where they live. Not just one in Wales, because that's no good if you live anywhere other than where it happens to be, but a network of those centres, exactly as Leanne Wood outlines, so that we can make sure that we get the best possible outcome not just for the women themselves, but for their children and families, who we know are impacted hugely by the wrong outcome. And I know the Cabinet Secretary—. I'm stealing his thunder a bit, because we've had this discussion—you know, we're at one on this. We completely agree with that agenda, and that's where we're trying to go with this.