3. Topical Questions – in the Senedd on 16 January 2019.
1. What assessment has the First Minister made of the impact on Wales of the UK Parliament vote on 15 January 2019 on the UK Government's Brexit deal? 256
Llywydd, the Prime Minister's approach has been decisively rejected. We need a new House of Commons under new Government to find a fresh way forward. That approach would rule out a 'no deal' exit and protect jobs and the economy here in Wales.
Thank you for that answer, First Minister. For two years, the Prime Minister has pursued a European policy dedicated to protecting the interests of the Tory party rather than the interests of the country. For two years, she has treated the people of Wales and the Welsh Assembly with total contempt. Every promise of engagement and participation has been broken. The UK is now in a state of constitutional—[Interruption.] It is now in a state of constitutional rigor mortis. Government is paralysed and the UK has now become a laughing stock and the Prime Minister a beacon of incompetence. The US have Trump; we have Theresa May.
Following last night's catastrophic and historic defeat, she says the Government will listen and reach out across the Commons, but, at the same time, she says her red lines stay in place—so, no discussion on a customs union, no discussion on a single market, no discussions on free movement or the European Court of Justice, no discussions with Her Majesty's opposition. So, having excluded everyone—the EU included—who on earth is she reaching out to? This is a fatally flawed Prime Minister, a Prime Minister in denial, leading a Government that has no legitimacy, no mandate and no clue. First Minister—[Interruption.]—First Minister—[Interruption.]—First Minister—[Interruption.]—First Minister, do you have any confidence in the Prime Minister?
Well, Llywydd, any Prime Minister who finds herself defeated in the way that this Prime Minister has been when attempting to discharge the single most important responsibility that will ever fall to her should resign. I think that is the constitutionally proper course of action and she should face up to that and she should take it. Having said that, Llywydd, let me say, as I always say in the Chamber here, that, whoever is the Prime Minister tomorrow, the Welsh Government will work with the Government in the United Kingdom to make sure that the interests of people in Wales are always fully known and in front of whoever is the Prime Minister.
First Minister, will you agree with me that everybody in this Chamber and in the UK House of Commons should respect the outcome of the vote in June 2016 and support the UK Government in seeking to work through the consequences of that as we leave the European Union? Furthermore, would you also agree with me that the biggest threat that there is to Wales is Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister in the United Kingdom? That's a worse threat than a 'no deal' Brexit: higher taxes, more debt in our public services and more waste?
Llywydd, the greatest threat to Wales is that we crash out of the European Union with no deal at all, with all the damage that that will do to business here in Wales, to jobs here in Wales. If the Member is so fearful of a Jeremy Corbyn Government, then no doubt he will be supporting calls in the House of Commons to defeat the Government so that that can be put to the people of the country, because, if he is so sure of his point of view, then why is he so fearful of a general election?
Can I ask the First Minister what happens now? What happens when Theresa May wins the vote of no confidence today? Would you agree with me that Jeremy Corbyn has no clear vision on Europe either—no clearer than Theresa May—so a general election would be a completely pointless distraction? Will you support a people's vote referendum instead?
Well, Llywydd, the Member asks what happens next. First of all, I certainly haven't given up on the prospect that the House of Commons will reject this Government. His party will vote tonight in favour of a motion of no confidence. I wish he had the confidence in the no confidence motion that his party will support. That's what I want to see happen; I want to see this Government defeated and a general election. And I completely disagree with him that a general election is an irrelevance, because not only would we have a Government that would deliver a sensible approach to Brexit, but we would have a Government that would turn its back on austerity and all the things that we, across this Chamber, his party included, week after week, call for here. There is so much more at stake in a general election. That's why we need a new Government, and think what that would do for Wales.
Thanks for your response to Mick Antoniw's question earlier, First Minister. I hear what you say—that you want the UK Parliament to rule out a 'no deal' Brexit. So, at least you've made your position clear. Obviously, over here, we're in a completely different position to that; we don't see a 'no deal' Brexit as being a bad solution; we actually see it as a World Trade Organization deal Brexit, rather than a 'no deal' Brexit.
Now, we did have a statement yesterday from your Brexit Minister, which I thought contained some useful elements, in that he was outlining many plans that the Welsh Government were formulating, advising businesses and so on about the eventuality of the UK leaving the EU on 29 March. Obviously, as you've stated, that's not your preferred option, but, if you're going along with your Brexit, Minister, that is an eventuality that you now have to consider. And I think you would do well to focus your efforts on making plans for the UK leaving the EU on 29 March and how that affects Wales, rather than doing what you've been doing as a Government for the last two and a half years and trying to thwart Brexit. Would you agree, First Minister, that that would be—[Interruption.] Would you agree that that would be a sensible approach?
Another question I do have is: I note from following Adam Price's social media, which we do fanatically in the UKIP group, that there were—[Interruption.] There were—[Interruption.] There were some—[Interruption.] There were some—[Interruption.] There were some cross-party talks, I believe, taking place, involving Adam and possibly Paul Davies. So, just out of interest, we were the only party that supported Brexit so I just wondered: why weren't we invited? Thank you.
Llywydd, let me respond to the first question first. As I've said time and again—and I've said it again now—leaving the European Union without a deal would have a catastrophic impact upon the economy here in Wales, on public services in Wales and in the lives of ordinary Welsh citizens. Does that mean that we do not prepare against that eventuality, especially as it looms larger? Well, of course, as a responsible Government, we prepare against that day, and our preparations have stepped up since September of last year, and been reported regularly to the Assembly. Those are the matters to which the Counsel General referred yesterday. We will report on them again on the floor of the Assembly next week, not because we are prepared to contemplate for a moment supporting such a course of action, but we have a responsibility to people in Wales to take action, should that turn out to be the case.
The Member is right that I met earlier today with the leaders of Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Conservatives. I'm grateful to them for finding the time to have those discussions, and I did so on the basis that three parties in this Assembly are dedicated to a form of Brexit that would mitigate the impact of that here in Wales, whereas the party that Mr Bennett represents has the position that he articulated here this afternoon. He believes there is no need to prepare for a 'no deal' Brexit, because he welcomes that prospect. Others here don't, and that's why I decided I would discuss matters with them.
Like yourself, First Minister—the defeat of the UK Government last night in the House of Commons was truly historic. I agree with your analysis, and had the Prime Minister any sense of obligation to the country, she would have resigned this morning as a consequence of that. I also hope that the House of Commons will pass a vote of no confidence in the United Kingdom Government this evening. I'm surprised that some of the signatories to that motion don't seem so committed to it. Is it the reality, First Minister, that whatever happens in the House of Commons tonight and whatever happens in the House of Commons next Monday, we are running out of time to reach a conclusion to these conversations? We are running out of time to find a solution. The extent and the size of the defeat of the United Kingdom Government's policy last night means that they can't simply return with a tweaked deal and hope that that will be passed. Is it now time for us not simply to look again at article 50, but to withdraw article 50, to enable us to have the time to have a real debate, in this country and across our Parliaments, about the sort of way forward, and that that way forward is then put to the people in a referendum, which will be an honest referendum, where people would be able to state their case and make their choice?
Well, I agree with what Alun Davies said about us running out of time, and that should be no surprise to anybody. We've been warned about that for many, many months, that the clock is ticking away. Now we're in the final part of leaving the European Union, and we need more time. We need more time to have the discussions that Alun Davies referred to. There's more than one way in which that could be brought about. I have called today for a suspension of the article 50 timetable, and I think there will be a willingness on the part of the European Union to agree to that, provided they know, in the way that Alun Davies said, that the discussions that are to be held over the next few days are not about tweaking Mrs May's deal at the margins. That will never satisfy 230 Members of the House of Commons. The Prime Minister has to abandon her failed and flawed policy of negotiating through a series of red lines, constantly telling everybody else what she will not agree to. She needs to find out what other people are prepared to agree to. She has to show the flexibility that genuine leadership would involve, and in that way, given the time that Alun Davies has pointed to, there is still an opportunity to do a deal that would be in line with the prospectus set out in 'Securing Wales' Future' and would allow us to leave the European Union in a way that protects our long-term interests.
First Minister, the size of the Tory defeat last night was such that it's now plain that the only choices left are a Brexit the two major parties support, the disaster of a 'no deal' or a people's vote. Given that any Brexit deal would leave Wales worse off, would deepen the poverty trap and entrench austerity, would you agree with me that the only serious option now for those who want to put the people of Wales first is a people's vote?
I don't agree with that, Llywydd. I think we will come to the point when that may very well be the case, and if we reach that point, then going back to the people, having a final say on this matter, may have to be the way through the impasse that the House of Commons would find itself in if it wasn't able to do what Lynne Neagle pointed to in the first part of her question, and that is to find a form of Brexit on which the House of Commons can agree. Now, we may well feel here that that is a remote possibility, but the Prime Minister said yesterday—she repeated it in a telephone conversation that I had with her late yesterday evening—that she is to reach out to other parties and other parliamentarians, that she's to involve devolved administrations in those discussions, with a view to finding a different way through this impasse. I think we—if she's in a position to do that after today—have to allow her the few days at her disposal to see if that can be brought about. If there is a deal that she can do that meets the tests set out by my party, that meets the tests set out in 'Securing Wales' Future', there may yet be a deal there to be done. If that is not the case, then I agree, in those circumstances, with what Lynne Neagle said—that the decision will have to go back to the people.
Thank you, First Minister. The next question is to be asked of the Minister for Economy and Transport, and the question is to be asked by Rhun ap Iorwerth.