The next item is the motion under Standing Order 26.91 seeking the Assembly's agreement to introduce a Member Bill on older people's rights. I call on Darren Millar to move the motion.

Motion NDM6940 Darren Millar

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 26.91:

Agrees that Darren Millar AM may introduce a Bill to give effect to the information included in the Explanatory Memorandum published on 14 December 2018 under Standing Order 26.91A.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion seeking the Assembly's agreement to allow me to introduce a Member Bill on older people's rights.

As a nation, we can be very proud that many of us are living longer and are healthier in our old age than ever before. And we can be proud of the excellent track record that we have in championing and supporting our older people here in Wales. We were the first nation in the world to appoint an older people's commissioner, the first UK nation to incorporate the UN conventions on the rights of the child and older people into domestic law, and the first to establish the public sector equality duty under the Equality Act 2010. Today, the National Assembly for Wales has the opportunity, once again, to lead the way by supporting proposals for an older people's rights Bill. 

We have the highest proportion of older people in the UK—one in four people living here in Wales is over the age of 60—and that demographic rise is set to continue. It's estimated by Age Alliance that, by 2030, the number of people aged over 65 living in Wales will increase by more than a third. And, when it comes to the over-85s, that's going to increase by a staggering 80 per cent. Now, some have complained that such an increase in older people is placing a burden on society, yet these people never mention the enormous contribution that older people make to our country. The Royal Voluntary Service has estimated that people aged over 65 make a contribution of over £1 billion annually to the Welsh economy, and that's net of pension, health and social care costs. Age Alliance have suggested that the value of childcare provided by grandparents in Wales is over £0.25 billion per year, and the value of their volunteering is estimated to be just shy of £0.5 billion. Yet, in spite of this huge contribution, it's true to say that some of our older people may need extra support or assistance, when compared to the rest of the population.

Many are frequent users of public services; they can be more dependent on the care of others and they may be—and often are—subject to age discrimination. Older people can be disproportionately impacted by the closure of facilities such as public conveniences, banks, libraries, post offices, hospitals or the withdrawal of public transport such as bus services. And at a time when more and more key services are only available online, more than half of adults, we must remember, over the age of 75, have never ever used the internet. All of this can make older people more vulnerable and more likely to lose their independence, and therefore they are at greater risk of their rights being violated.

Many older people are carers and compared to the rest of the UK, Wales has a higher number of older carers who are often in poorer health themselves. Living with a long-term illness or disability is challenging at the best of times, but all the more so when you have a caring responsibility. But many older people do not have anybody close by to support them. Loneliness and isolation are daily realities for many older people, and it's tragic that, according to Age Cymru, around 75,000 older people in Wales have reported—and I quote—'always or often feeling lonely'. Lonely people are more likely to suffer poor health, become vulnerable, and have their rights violated. 

Research has also indicated that Wales has the highest prevalence of elder abuse in the UK. Action on Elder Abuse have found that 12.5 per cent of those over 65 in Wales have been subject to abuse, representing almost 100,000 people a year, but the current system isn't sufficiently identifying abuse cases, and victims often don't feel empowered to tell people, and perhaps this is why fewer than 1 per cent of cases result in a successful criminal conviction. 

And then we have the problem of ageism. It's an issue that we rarely talk about, but its impact upon older people can be just as devastating as racism, sexism or homophobia. Negative stereotypes of older people are still common, as is the derogatory and disrespectful language that is often used to describe people once they reach a certain age.

It's for all of these reasons that I'm seeking permission from the Assembly today to introduce an older people's rights Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to build on Wales's excellent track record to date by embedding a rights-based approach in the development, planning and delivery of public services that affect older people in Wales. If given permission, I will seek to consult with stakeholders to develop a Bill that will further enshrine the rights of older people within Welsh law, by placing a duty on Welsh Ministers to have regard to the United Nations Principles for Older Persons when making decisions that may impact upon older people in Wales; that will provide for the ability to extend that due-regard duty to local authorities, health boards and other Welsh public authorities; that will place a duty on Welsh Ministers to promote knowledge of and understanding of the UN Principles for Older Persons; and that will require Welsh Ministers to publish annual reports on their compliance with their older people's rights schemes—something that doesn't happen at the moment.

Now, this approach might sound familiar to some people in this Chamber, and that's because the duties are very similar to those that have been set out in the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011. That legislation, of course, was very well received by stakeholders, and it's made a positive impact on children's experiences and in raising awareness of children's rights across the country. Now, I'm very confident that we can secure some similar results through legislation on older people's rights.

I first suggested a Bill of this kind during a short debate back in January of 2012, and since then a great deal has happened. Later that year, the First Minister established an advisory group—the then First Minister—to explore the development of a Welsh declaration of rights for older people. And then, in 2014, the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 finally embedded the UN Principles for Older Persons into Welsh law for the very first time. We then had the Welsh declaration of the rights of older people, which was finally published in 2014. In the following year, 2015, the older people's commissioner at the time, Sarah Rochira, called for better protection of older people's rights, and she went on, in January of 2016, to publish 'Making rights real in public services', which provided guidance to leaders in the public sector on how they could embed the human rights of older people into their public services. Now, all of this progress, of course, is very, very welcome. In January 2016 as well, this National Assembly voted for an amended motion that called on the Welsh Government to, and I quote,

'work with the Older People's Commissioner to bring forward legislation to protect and promote the rights of older people.'

And it was the then health Minister at the time—now the First Minister—who accepted that amended motion, and all political parties in the Senedd voted for it. I regret, though, that the outcome of that vote has never, ever been fully implemented, and that the progress that we have made has stalled. [Interruption.] I'll happily take an intervention, yes.

Thanks so much for giving way, and my apologies for coming in late. I was watching on the monitor—. Llywydd, my apologies; my timing went to pot there. But I've listened with interest, including on the monitor as I was watching, and I welcome the very temperate way that he's laid out his case there. One significant change that has actually taken place subsequent to the timeline he talked about was last June, when Sarah Rochira, the previous older people's commissioner, actually left the post, and she stood in the Senedd just above us and she welcomed the work that had gone on with my officials at the time, which had led to a very tangible, concrete set of actions—tangible actions—that are now being worked on, which went far beyond what had gone before in words and so on, and that is still being taken through. So, I simply ask him to acknowledge that, actually, not only did Sarah recognise that, but my subsequent meeting with the new older people's commissioner also recognised that the approach being taken within Welsh Government is very proactive now.

I very much welcome the progress that's been made, but it's not underpinned by legislation, which is the point of the Bill that I'm proposing, and we have an opportunity to further that cause—the cause that, I think, we all share in terms of wanting to promote older people's rights—by supporting this Bill today. And, of course, that's why the older people's commissioner—the current older people's commissioner—and the Equalities and Human Rights Commission are both backing my proposals for a Bill. I know a whole host of other organisations and stakeholders are backing this Bill, including Action on Elder Abuse Cymru, Age Alliance Wales, Age Connects Wales, Age Cymru, the Alzheimer's Society Cymru, Care and Repair Cymru, the Carers Trust Wales, Carers Wales, Cymru Older People's Alliance, Prime Cymru, the British Geriatric Society, the Centre for Ageing and Dementia Research—I could go on and on and on with more and more people on that list, but I think it shows the huge support that there is out there for a Bill of this kind. 

Just a very brief word on the potential financial implications of the Bill: the closest comparator in terms of legislation and associated costings is, of course, the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011. Now, the regulatory impact assessment for that Measure suggested that the costs over a three-year period of implementation were around £1.5 million. If we increase those by inflation, then it suggests that the costs for this sort of Bill might be around £1.75 million. However, the reality is that some of those costs are already being borne by Government because of the duties that are already contained, as I mentioned before, in the social services and well-being Act. So, it's likely to be much less than that. So, these costs, of course, will need further clarification in the future and more detailed consideration, but it suggests to me that this is an extremely affordable thing for us to be able to do.

In closing, then, Llywydd, I just want to remind people that we have a historic opportunity today. We embarked upon this journey a number of years ago and we can deliver and pioneer a new rights-based approach for older people's rights here in Wales. We've got an opportunity to develop legislation that will result in practical improvements in the decision making and delivery of public services, that will raise awareness of older people's rights and give them recognition and status, and that will empower those hundreds of thousands of older people across Wales to access those rights, and I urge Members to support the motion. 

I call on the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, Julie Morgan. 

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Everyone in Wales deserves to have their rights recognised and made real, and raising the awareness of older people about the rights they already have and making sure those rights are embedded in both the way public services are delivered, and, indeed, in society more broadly, is of the utmost importance, and I do believe it is this concern that has prompted Darren Millar to bring this Bill proposed today, and I certainly agree strongly with the sentiments that lie behind the proposed Bill.

Wales has a long history of working with and for older people, as Darren Millar has acknowledged, from the introduction of the first strategy for older people in Wales in 2003 to establishing the world's first older people's commissioner in 2008, and this work continues today with a renewed focus on older people's rights, as Huw Irranca-Davies has mentioned. Current work to embed older people's rights across the Welsh public services includes the following: producing practical guidance to demonstrate how public bodies can have due regard to the UN Principles for Older Persons, as required by the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014; updating the 2009 guidance on escalating concerns on the closure of care homes; planning for a social care awareness-raising campaign in spring 2019, which will include awareness raising about older people's rights under existing law; and working closely with older people, public bodies, third sector organisations and leading academics to co-produce a strategy for an ageing society—and early work on this is being overseen by the ministerial advisory forum on ageing. It will adopt a rights-based approach that is placing older people at the heart of policy making. That's not an exhaustive list, but I think it does demonstrate the Welsh Government's commitment to protect and uphold older persons' rights. 

In addition to this work on making rights real, Welsh Government has taken many actions to support older people on a wider basis. This includes free swimming, free bus passes, boosting advocacy services, engaging older people through a ministerial advisory forum, funding falls prevention initiatives, improving the quality of care homes, funding a dementia action plan, tackling loneliness and isolation, increasing the capital limit for residential care, and investing significantly in health and care, including through the integrated care fund. 

So, when we consider the merits of this proposed legislation, we must put it in context. Older people's rights are already enshrined in the UK Human Rights Act 1998, and age is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010. Specifically in Wales, the social services and well-being Act requires local authorities to have due regard to the UN Principles for Older People and gives older people a strong voice in the arrangements for any care they may need. [Interruption.] Yes, certainly.

Oh—

I think Suzy Davies was first. 

Sorry, I didn't see you, Suzy.

Sorry, Deputy Minister, perhaps you didn't see me. Thank you very much for taking the intervention. Before you conclude your speech, I wonder if you could explain what remedies are available to people who expect their rights to be observed, but actually are failed.

I will be going on to that in my speech. So, I will be covering that. 

Thank you, Suzy. Would—? Sorry, this is the first opportunity I've had to welcome you formally to your post, and I know you'll do a superb job, an absolutely superb job. Could I just ask you, though—? The acid test—whether it is legislation or whether it is the current Government's agenda of making these rights real—is when you walk into a group of older people and they tell you, 'I know what my rights are'. They tell you, in terms of the social services and well-being Act, 'I understand that the start of any conversation should be what matters to me', in the same way that you have when you walk into primary schools with children. Now, we haven't got there yet, and it's a moot point about whether a law is needed or not, I have to say. My personal preference is that we should continue embedding it in this way. But that's the acid test—when you walk into a group of older people and they say eloquently, articulately, 'I know my rights. I demand my rights.'

I absolutely agree with Huw Irranca-Davies and I'd like to thank him for all that he's done to further this agenda. But we do also know that there are other groups in society who suffer inequality and deserve to have their rights become the reality much more consistently.

We already know that there have been calls to enact the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination Against Women, CEDAW, and also to bring into Welsh law the UN convention on the rights of disabled people. But, acting upon the cases made for legislation put forward on behalf of different groups would risk a piecemeal approach to legislation, and I think an uneven approach would be confusing to the public bodies that have duties put on them, as it would be for the people of Wales.

As a Welsh Government, we are also concerned that, following Brexit, the UK Government may well seek to weaken or even repeal the UK Human Rights Act. Here today it's not possible to foresee whether these concerns will come to fruition, but as a Government we must take an approach that gives flexibility to respond to these potential circumstances. I see that all these arguments are arguments for taking a more ambitious, holistic approach to legislating for human rights that is proofed against potential circumstances. So, to develop our preferred approach, steps have already been taken towards commissioning independent research to examine how we can incorporate the seven UN rights treaties and the UN Principles for Older People into Welsh law, enact the socioeconomic duty and strengthen existing regulations or guidance.

Ministers will be meeting with a wide range of stakeholders, including the older people's commissioner and other commissioners and their representatives on 6 February, and I know the Member putting this Bill forward has also been invited to go to that seminar to discuss these issues. We intend to consult on the legislative models that emerge from the research and aim to come up with proposals by the end of this year. All this will be done with the involvement of older people and their representatives, amongst others. 

So, to conclude, while I strongly support the sentiments behind this Bill, the time is not right for this particular bit of legislation. When we do legislate, we should do that holistically for the whole of society and in a way that identifies the needs of all disadvantaged groups. In not being able to support this Bill today, I would aim to work closely with the Member in charge, the older person's commissioner and other important partners and stakeholders, whatever the outcomes of the vote later today, to make rights real for older people. I don't think there's any disagreement here at all about the principles, but rather the desire from the Government to see a more ambitious, holistic and strategic approach, which I don't think is the proposal in front of us today. 

It would be—[Interruption.] If I may proceed, if the Member would allow me, given that I'm standing at this particular point in this process to support the Member's proposal, and to recommend to the Assembly that we allow this legislation to proceed at this stage. I should say that in the Plaid Cymru group, we will be having a free vote on this, and Members will, as I feel is appropriate for backbench legislation, decide on the merits in their own views. 

I think there is merit in principle to what Darren Millar is proposing. We do have evidence of the effectiveness of the partial incorporation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and Members are aware, as the Minister has already alluded, of my proposal that we consider incorporating the convention on the rights of disabled people. As the Minister has said, I entirely concur with her, and the case that Darren Millar has set out, about the serious discrimination that older people suffer in many circumstances, though we must also acknowledge that older people are sometimes among the most privileged and the most financially successful, so this isn't universal. But I've been shocked, for example, to see the parlous state of some services for older people with mental health needs, and some of the care homes that I've visited have been profoundly shocking. I should also say that I've visited some settings that have been exceptional, and those settings have often not been the glossy ones, not the most expensive ones, but ones where the care is of the highest quality. 

So, I do recognise Darren Millar's description of some of the challenges that we face in ensuring that older people are able to access their rights. And the question for this Assembly will be: is this piece of legislation—or will this piece of legislation, because, of course, we haven't seen it yet—will this piece of legislation be the most effective and the most likely to succeed in addressing that wide range of challenges that Darren Millar rightly sets out?

I've been very grateful for the discussions that I've had with Welsh Ministers, with Julie James and with Jane Hutt, following my proposal with regard to the disabled people's convention, about the broader agenda to incorporate that the Minister has set out for us today, and I've been very interested to read the Counsel General's views on this. As the Minister has rightly said, we do not yet know, if and when Brexit happens, how that will affect the equality legislation, because the UK legislation, of course, is predicated on an ultimate appeal to European courts, and that would no longer be the case. So, there are many unknowns in this situation. And I would be very disappointed if the work that the Minister has outlined were to be hampered in any way by the progress of this proposed Bill. However, where I do not agree with the Minister at present is that I don't accept that allowing this Bill to progress to the next stage would necessarily need to derail that work. Indeed, I could imagine a situation where we might proceed with this legislation, and at a further stage, the Government might choose to take it on board and to build it in to further work that they were doing, as was done, for example, when, in a previous Assembly, I introduced a carers' rights Measure that was then taken on by the Government and put into a broader piece of work that they were doing to promote carers' rights. 

I want to make very clear today to the Government that I do not think that we can use the future generations and well-being Act, as it stands now, to move this agenda forward. There is no redress for the individual under the future generations and well-being Act, and the commissioner herself has made it very clear that she can do nothing other than name and shame. And I know that Ministers are looking at the inconsistency between the powers of our various commissioners, and also looking at the way in which those powers have or have not been used. And, again, I know that that will be built into the work that the Minister has outlined today. But, again, I do not see that that is a reason necessarily, at this stage, for this Assembly not to allow Darren Millar's proposal to proceed. 

I will be very interested to see the detail of the Bill. I am very interested in the issue that Suzy Davies raised around enforceability because we know—and I look to Jane Hutt, our Minister for equality, who knows very well that unless individuals have mechanisms that they can use, that do not depend on the Government, that do not depend on an independent commissioner, but that they can use themselves to enforce those rights, those rights at their very end may not be enforced. And we have experience trying to implement sex equality legislation that makes that clear.

We are, I think—we can see from this debate—all united in our wish, in this Chamber, to address the discrimination that older people undoubtedly face. I believe that we should wait and see the detail of this Bill before we come to a conclusion as to whether or not this is the right way to proceed. And on that basis, I commend Darren Millar's motion to the house.

It is a privilege today to participate in what really could be a historic moment for our older people in Wales, and indeed our future generations. Whilst Wales is home to less than 1 per cent of the world’s population, the Bill brought forward today by my colleague, Darren Millar AM, could really be a global game changer. It would set an important precedent for other nations to follow—the need to embed a rights-based approach in the development, planning and delivery of public services that affect our older people.

Whilst I must acknowledge that Wales has been a pioneering nation for the interests of older people in many ways, such as with the creation of the world’s first older people’s commissioner role, in 2006, more can and should be done. We should all ask ourselves why we would not want to help forge a nation where there is a legal duty on Ministers and Welsh public authorities to consider the 18 United Nations principles for older persons. Personally, I see no possible excuse for hindering these, as the principles have the best interest and respect of older people at heart.

Just consider this: if this Bill did receive Royal Assent, it could almost immediately set about transforming the lives of over 800,000 older people in Wales, as, for example, it would go a long way in empowering older people to take charge of decisions that affect their lives, including the quality of their care. Now, the need for this was highlighted in the ‘A Place to Call Home?’ report, where a worrying reality was outlined—that too many older people living in care homes have an unacceptable quality of life. For example, it was found that older people see their personal identity and individuality rapidly diminish, and lose choice and control over their lives, once in a care home. They are often not receiving the level of care they have a right to expect, and the culture of care homes is often built upon a dependency model, which often fails to prevent physical decline, and does not allow people to sustain or regain their independence. Now, in my opinion, the Bill would help individuals and authorities tackle such devastating inequalities. I'm not saying all this—the report said that.

Additionally, for rural constituencies like mine, Aberconwy, which forms part of the county council with the highest proportion of over-65s in Wales, it is true that this Bill would achieve a great deal, through helping to protect the interests of elderly residents when changes to local facilities are being made. For example, over the last few months, I have been involved in a campaign to save bus services, which provide key lifelines to communities, and especially elderly residents. If this legislation was in place, I am confident that there would be greater consideration of, and greater weight placed on, the impact of changes on the older person—in my constituency, and, indeed, all of our constituencies and regions. The need for this is apparent, as the closure of 189 public toilets, one in six libraries, and 29 GP practices in Wales coincide with an extremely high rate of isolation and loneliness. Indeed, according to Age Cymru, 75,000 older people in Wales have reported always or often feeling lonely—a problem that is exacerbated by the withdrawal of local services. And this is happening under a Welsh Labour Government.

Undoubtedly, when considering that it is the older generation who make up the majority of Wales's army of volunteers, and that grandparents alone save Welsh parents £259 million a year, it is clear to me that this Bill is the least that we could give them back in return. So I do hope, Deputy Minister, that you have a change of heart, and, indeed, your backbenchers and your Cabinet colleagues. Because, do you know what, it is the same Chamber, but different legislation, on a different week. This is all because, I'm afraid, it is a Conservative-led piece of legislation. What hope does it give to backbenchers like myself? What hope does it give to new and aspiring Assembly candidates and Members that they can be picked in a ballot and then it gets as far as the floor of this Senedd, only to be turned down from pure tribalism and party politics? 

Well, I feel obviously, given my age, I should declare an interest at this point. [Laughter.] While our rights should not change as we grow older, older people often face negative attitudes and age discrimination, in particular, in access to healthcare, employment, goods and services, information and education. Older people also face increasing barriers to their participation, become more dependent on others and lose some, or all, of their personal autonomy. These threats to their dignity can make them more susceptible to neglect, abuse and violation of their rights. 

It is my belief that this proposed Bill would ensure the rights of older people are strengthened. it would also safeguard the principle that, just as older people are at the centre of many of our families, they will also be at the forefront of our thinking when it comes to key issues, such as access to healthcare, financial inclusion and public services. 

We often hear news stories about how we have an ageing population. There are around 800,000 older people in Wales, and the number of people aged 65 and over is projected to increase by 232,000, that's 36 per cent, by 2041. Last week, we debated the cost of paying for social care, and it is, of course, important that we plan for the future. But we must do so in a way that promotes ageing well and with a dignified and respectful conversation.

Although social care is a major factor when it comes to discussing how we plan for the future, there are many other considerations. In my region, older people have told me how they are adversely affected by library and day care centre cuts or changes to post office services. There are heart-breaking cases, of course, of older people who have fallen victim to scams. I, like other Members, will have also heard from constituents who have difficulty in accessing GP services. I believe this Bill would go a long way in helping to promote the understanding of older people's rights and alleviating some of these very real difficulties. 

Ensuring that older people are not disadvantaged simply by reason of age is one of the greatest challenges of modern times. That challenge is to ensure that all of our older people are able to live fulfilling lives, and that they are not seen as a burden, but recognised for the contribution they have made throughout their lives to the economy and community as a whole, and also to acknowledge that many of them still contribute to the society in many ways, often being the backbone of many charities and social activities. 

It is therefore incumbent on statutory authorities to ensure that the core mainstream services are available to older residents in the same way that they are for other people. For that reason, we in UKIP will be supporting the Bill today, and we encourage all sides of the Chamber to do likewise. If children are protected in law, why not the other most vulnerable group, the old?  

I would like to thank Darren for bringing forward his proposal for an older people’s rights Bill. I fully support the intention behind Darren’s proposals, and will do all I can to help ensure this Bill becomes an Act of this Assembly. I'm passionate about tackling loneliness and isolation and I have spoken in this Chamber many times on the subject. Protecting the rights of older people will go a long way in addressing the core causes of isolation in our older population.

Unfortunately, ageism still exists in our society, and has become institutionalised in many aspects. I have received several calls from people over the age of 75 whose car insurance has doubled or even tripled simply because of their age, not because of them being unsafe to drive or having accidents, but just because of their age—and if this isn't ageism, nothing is—effectively pricing them out of the market, denying them their freedom and contributing to increased loneliness and isolation. It’s not just the insurance companies that display institutionalised ageism. Services from banks to utility companies are increasingly moving online, further isolating a generation for whom computers were the size of large buildings and only owned by Governments and universities.

Unfortunately, digital exclusion is highest in the over-65s and its effects are exacerbated by Governments moving services online, by banks closing and utility companies going paperless. It is a sad fact that in twenty-first century Wales, people are treated differently because they're older.

Ageism has been fuelled in recent years with discussion over the future of pensions and social care. This has sometimes been discussed insensitively and this has had the consequence of sometimes pitting generations against each other, blaming the over-65s for the tribulations of those born at the tail end of the twentieth century.

The older generations have paid tax and national insurance for over 50 years; they have more than paid for their care and welfare during their retirement. And it was up to successive Governments to plan and make provisions for social care and pensions.

It is clear to me that we need to enshrine in law the rights of older people in Wales, to underline the UN principles for older persons, which promote independence, participation, care, self-fulfilment and, importantly, dignity. These principles should underpin the delivery of services, both public and private, to older people in Wales. Placing a duty on Welsh Ministers to have due regard for the UN principles will have a dramatic impact on older people’s rights in Wales.

A rights-based approach to public services is the right approach. So, I welcome Darren’s proposals for this Bill and support him wholeheartedly, and I urge Members from across this Chamber to support this motion—a motion that has overwhelming support from the public and the third sector. So, let us all work together, across this Chamber, to enshrine, in law, the rights of older people in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Like Huw Irranca, I'd very much like to welcome Julie Morgan to the post of Deputy Minister because I'm sure that your huge experience will bring to bear excellence in this particular portfolio. 

I suppose I need to declare an interest as well: as a grandmother twice over, I have to probably be in the category of an older person, and we all face that music in due course. I think some of the statistics that Darren Millar has produced are, of course, very sobering. The fact that 75,000 people feel lonely most of the time is a wake-up call for all of us. But I really do wonder how this legislation would address that. It's something we all need to address, but I really don't see how legislation is going to do it.

I was concerned that you didn't mention the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 in your introduction. And that was even before Helen Mary had said she didn't see that it had anything to do with it. I am concerned—

Will you give way?

No. I think I'm in the middle of saying something at the moment. I'll take it in a second, yes. 

I'm concerned that we're in the process of potentially lopping off bits of this very holistic approach to the way we determine our priorities, which was a path-breaking piece of legislation and that, potentially, this could undermine that holistic approach.

So, I'm happy to take the intervention.

Just to clarify, Jenny Rathbone, for you benefit, I did not say that it had nothing to do with it. What I said was that the well-being of future generations Act did not give individuals enforceable rights and, therefore, it was not the appropriate vehicle to deal with all the issues that Darren Millar raised. That is not to say that it's not a valuable piece of legislation that can do other very useful jobs.

Thank you, Helen Mary, for reminding me of what you actually said, because what I was going to say in response to that is that older people already have access to complain to the older person's commissioner if they don't think that they're being treated fairly, as well as all the other ways in which we can all complain. I think I have some concerns that we're focusing on one particular group—one particular group that hasn't done as badly out of the austerity programme since 2010 as other people. The people who have most suffered from the austerity programme are children, who have no voice and very, very little power. So, I'm concerned about the balance of our approach, and as Darren Millar says, he thinks it would cost £1.75 million to implement, and I wonder if there aren't better ways of reshaping services to better meet people's needs than simply having new legislation. It's action we need, not words. If we need to put more money into older people's services, we're going to have to find ways of generating it. And I just wondered why the Holtham proposals are arguing that, if we're going to have social care free at the point of need, and free at the point of delivery, we are going to have to find another mechanism for putting more money into the system, because at the moment we simply don't pay people enough for doing the very important job they're doing.

Unlike Helen Mary Jones, I have seen very good practice in my constituency. I've also seen examples of poor practice, and these have been dealt with by CIW, and they've been closed down as a result. That's how it should be. But I think that it's a disgrace that we don't pay people more, but I think that we need to address why we aren't  putting more money into the system as a society to ensure that older people have an excellent old age. Some people will choose to go into a residential nursing home, or a residential home, but others will want to stay in their own home, and that is where I would like to see a great deal more focus.

So, in terms of what Caroline was saying about car insurance companies discriminating against older people—you know, these are private companies. They will endeavour to charge the maximum that they can get away with, and people need to challenge them and try and go elsewhere. Older people don't all come in the same shapes and sizes. Some older people are perfectly capable of arguing their case, just as some younger people are very inadequate at arguing their case. I'll take the intervention—

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Well, you're out of time, actually, so if you'd like to wind up your speech, then we'll move on.

I'd like to wind up and say that I'm concerned about this piecemeal approach to human rights, and I'd like to see a much broader approach being taken. We're probably going to have to legislate, if we leave the European Court of Human Rights, and that seems to me a much better approach.

Thank you. Can I now call Darren Millar to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I've listened very carefully to what people have been saying, and I'm very grateful for the support that I've had, certainly on the opposition benches, to the proposal that I want to take forward. I'm obviously very disappointed that the Government doesn't see eye to eye with me in this regard, about this being an appropriate way to take forward the rights-based agenda for older people. The Government, of course, has made reference to a piecemeal approach. Well, we have a piecemeal approach now, which was started by the Government in respect of children and young people's rights, and that is something that we all felt it was necessary to address. And as David Rowlands quite rightly said, young people have their rights protected in Welsh law and older people deserve to have theirs protected too.

Will the Member give way?

Yes, very briefly.

He says it's piecemeal and gives one example, but I think another example was inferred just now in that insurance companies—our older people will just rely on competition. You can't have an insurance company discriminate on the basis of gender. Why should they be able to do it on the basis of age?

It's absolutely right. Any discrimination on the grounds of age is something that shouldn't be tolerated, but, unfortunately, too many people are getting away with it. I think there will be a perception that there may be some political tribalism going on here. I can't guarantee that that's what the perception will be, but I think some people will perceive it as that. It's certainly been implied, I think, by the fact that one party is taking a different approach than the others. And I was very supportive of the need to do things on the wider rights agenda, which is why I've accepted the invitation to be with you at the meeting on 6 February, although we know that that was a very hastily arranged meeting. The older people's commissioner only received an invitation yesterday, as did I, in an attempt to thwart this particular proposal from making progress in this Chamber. We know that that is the case, so I am a little bit disappointed that there have been these last-minute attempts to nudge people in a direction against the Bill.

Jenny Rathbone, you made an interesting speech, but you didn't stick to the theme here. You were talking about the whole paying-for-care agenda and the Holtham agenda, but of course I'm focused here purely on rights: making sure that those rights are accessible to older people; that they can realise their rights; and that they can have some redress to make sure that their rights are protected, promoted and respected by everybody in Wales, particularly in our public services. That isn't the case at the moment. All too often, older people are not given the opportunity to be consulted, for example, on huge things going on in their local communities. Usually, it's purely via web portals that people have the opportunity to look at consultation documents and respond to them. So, I think that there is a concern in that regard.

As Huw Irranca-Davies quite rightly pointed out—he spent time holding the older people's brief, and I wish Julie Morgan all the very best in taking this on—he knows, as well as I do, that when you go around speaking to older people, they are not aware of what their rights are. Young people are because of the success of the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, but older people have no idea. So, it's all very well saying they've got an older people's commissioner who can help them and deal with their complaints, but if they don't know what their entitlements are, they can't realise those entitlements and make a complaint when they feel that they're being breached. I'll take the intervention from Huw Irranca.   

I thank you, Darren, for taking the intervention. You make a very good point, and I agree with that absolutely. We don't know how the vote is going to go today, but could I ask him: if the vote was going—. If his proposal for a Bill isn't taken forward—and based on the offer to take forward not only what is within the spirit and the intent and the detail of his proposal, but also the wider rights agenda—would he, I ask in all reasonableness, be willing then to work with the Minister, with the Government, in order to accomplish that? Because I do actually see the bigger prize as well here. Whether it's on disabled persons' rights, older people's rights, children's rights—there's a huge agenda here going forward. I think that the Government probably—and the Minister has signalled—would welcome your involvement in taking that forward: a different means to the same ends. 

I've already given a commitment to engage with the Government on that agenda. I'm a member of the cross-party group on human rights. I'm committed to human rights, and I want to further their cause all the way. I think that my concern about the approach being taken by the Government is that it's in its very early stages—it's embryonic. There's absolutely no hope whatsoever of us getting something onto the statute book by the end of this Assembly, whereas with my older people's Bill, there is. There's a lot of groundwork being done within Government, by the older people's commissioner and others on this agenda. We have the opportunity to get this through this Assembly by December 2020. That's the indication that I've had from the clerks supporting me with this Bill. Doing this does not preclude doing the other. There's still the opportunity to take a twin-track approach. We're always going to have unique arrangements for children and older people, by virtue of the fact that we have commissioners for those particular rights-based agendas. We don't for anything else in terms of human rights, but we do for children and older people. That's why I'm advocating this approach, and I very much hope that there will be some people on those Labour benches, on the Government benches, that will just think again before rejecting this proposal today.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.