Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

1. Questions to the Minister for Education – in the Senedd at 1:36 pm on 6 February 2019.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:36, 6 February 2019

(Translated)

And therefore we will move to questions from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Mohammad Asghar.

Photo of Mohammad Asghar Mohammad Asghar Conservative

Thank you, Madam Presiding Officer. Concerns have been expressed that, at present, investment in skills and adult education is too heavily focused on young adults, to the detriment of people aged 25 and over. By 2022, a third of the Welsh workforce will be aged over 50, so adult learning is much more important than ever in Wales. Minister, what are you doing to extend part-time and flexible modes of education, which provide an essential route for many adults who would otherwise be unable to access education in Wales?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:37, 6 February 2019

Well, firstly, I'm sure that the Member has inadvertently suggested that prioritising the needs of younger learners in further education over those of others is not something that he supports. I'm sure the Member would want us to continue to ensure that learners of post-compulsory age—17 onwards—continue to enjoy provision. But he makes a valuable point—that we need to ensure that learners, throughout their lifetime, have an opportunity to upskill, learn new skills or engage in education to improve their employment prospects. That's why you will be aware, I am sure, of my commitment with the new First Minister to explore the concept of ensuring that Wales becomes a second-chance nation and that every learner has an opportunity to engage in education at various points in their life. Of course, I am delighted that, as a result, for instance, of our changes to higher education support, we have seen a dramatic increase in the number of part-time learners registering with the Open University in Wales this year, which is in stark contrast to the numbers that continue to decline across the border in England.

Photo of Mohammad Asghar Mohammad Asghar Conservative 1:38, 6 February 2019

Thank you, Minister. But concerns have been raised about the lack of awareness of the financial support available for part-time students and greater debt aversion amongst mature students as contributing factors in any reduction in demand for part-time provision. Student Finance Wales focuses heavily on young people, resulting in a deficit of important information, advice and guidance for current and potential mature students. What are you doing, Minister, to ensure that part-time learners are treated fairly and on an equal basis so that part-time finance options are publicised as prominently as full-time ones in Wales?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:39, 6 February 2019

Well, Oscar, I would argue that the results speak for themselves. We have seen an increase of 35 per cent this year in the registrations for part-time degree courses with the Open University alone here in Wales. The Welsh Government engaged last year with a highly successful public information and advertising regime. In terms of reach and outputs, it's actually the most successful Welsh Government advertising programme ever undertaken—even more successful than the organ donation publicity campaign. What's important to me is that we look to support part-time learners in other areas, not just simply those who are studying at a degree level. We've made a big impact at degree level. We need to now make sure that those adults who want to study below degree level also have the opportunity. I'm currently considering the report that was commissioned by the previous Minister around Adult Learning Wales and we'll be looking to explore with our colleagues in FE what more we can do to ensure that part-time learning at all levels becomes a reality for many more Welsh citizens who wish to pursue it.

Photo of Mohammad Asghar Mohammad Asghar Conservative 1:40, 6 February 2019

Thank you, Minister. I've got no doubt that you're doing a wonderful job in your own post, but new data published by the Higher Education Statistics Agency show that a number of both EU and non-EU students attending British universities has risen nicely. In 2017 and 2018, over 458,000 students attended British universities—a rise of 16,000 over the previous years, and 20,000 since the year of the EU referendum. On a good note, Minister, will you join me in welcoming this news, which has been achieved, as the BBC would say, 'despite Brexit'?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:41, 6 February 2019

First of all, can I take this opportunity, Presiding Officer, to let people know that Wales's universities and FE colleges are open to business? We greatly appreciate the contributions that are made by European members of faculty and European and indeed non-European foreign students who come to study here in Wales. I hope many more of them will continue to do so.

But the Member does really need to listen to Universities Wales and to ColegauCymru about the real and present threats that Brexit poses to our FE and HE sector. The member, in ignoring those, actually is being reckless with the future of this very important sector. Undoubtedly—undoubtedly—Brexit, in whatever form it takes, will impact upon that sector and it will not do so positively.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:42, 6 February 2019

(Translated)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian. 

Photo of Siân Gwenllian Siân Gwenllian Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Thank you, Llywydd. I want to start where I left off the last time I had a conversation with you across this Chamber, namely with this very unfortunate sentence in your White Paper, published last week, about teaching English in nursery settings and nursery schools. I’m not going to rehearse the same issues again, and I’m very pleased that you have carried out a u-turn on this issue and that there will be no change of policy, as the Minister for the Welsh language suggested in answering my questions last Wednesday and as was confirmed in a brief statement that appeared on the Government’s website on Monday.

But there are further questions arising in my mind in the wake of this fiasco. It’s clear that the inclusion of the sentence was an error, but how on earth did that sentence, which would have meant a substantial and shocking change of policy, appear in the White Paper in the first place? Are important publications like White Papers not read and re-read time and time again in order to avoid fundamental mistakes such as this one? Isn’t there a process in place to ensure consistency with the Government’s core policies?

The other question arising is: why would anyone in the education department add such a sentence? How will you ensure that all your education officials are familiar with policies that have been recognised over decades as being the right ones for teaching Welsh to children under seven years of age? All I can say is that this mess has undermined your credibility as Minister and that of the civil servants of the education department and this Government. 

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:44, 6 February 2019

There was never any change in policy. I said that in questions last week. It was reiterated by the Welsh language Minister the following day, and I am very pleased that we have issued a detailed clarification in which I have made clear that immersion will continue in different schools and different settings. 

So, if I can, Presiding Officer, for the record here this afternoon: our proposals in the new curriculum will still enable schools and settings such as the meithrin to fully immerse children in the Welsh language and I'm very grateful to both officials at meithrin and UCAC for their support in this area.

Photo of Siân Gwenllian Siân Gwenllian Plaid Cymru 1:45, 6 February 2019

(Translated)

Thank you for providing that clarity, but you haven’t answered the question as to how on earth such a sentence appeared in the first place.

I’ll turn now to other aspects of your White Paper, if I may. It does note that primary legislation will be required for certain issues, including the six areas of learning and experience. One of those is the humanities, and you list the humanities as history, geography, religious education, business and social studies. I’ve heard you on a number of occasions discussing the importance of teaching Welsh history to our children, and I believe that we share the same vision in that area. Will you, therefore, consider adding the history of Wales to that list of subjects under the 'humanities' heading? The history of Wales would then appear on the face of the Bill and it would mean that it would be a statutory requirement for every school in Wales to introduce Welsh history as part of the new curriculum.

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:46, 6 February 2019

Let me be absolutely clear again: it is absolutely my expectation and my intention that all children should learn their own local history, the history of their nation, and the place of their nation in world history and the contribution of our country to world history and world events. The concept behind the curriculum, especially in the humanities, is a focus on the local at the very youngest age, and growing out from the local, which will give our children an understanding not only of their place in their community, but their community's place in our nation, and, indeed, the world. That is the focus. But I have to say I am concerned that this idea that the Welsh dimension can only ever be delivered through the history curriculum—it's truly worrying for me, because, actually, what I want out of this curriculum is not just children to learn about Welsh history. I want children to learn about Welsh literature, I want children to learn about Welsh musicians, I want people to learn about Welsh scientists. And the Member will know, from reading the White Paper, that, actually, a Welsh dimension will be a cross-cutting theme, not just in the humanities AOL—it is a cross-cutting theme for the entirety of our curriculum.

Photo of Siân Gwenllian Siân Gwenllian Plaid Cymru 1:47, 6 February 2019

(Translated)

Thank you very much. I agree entirely with you, but that’s not an argument for not including the history of Wales as a specific subject under that long list that you have under the heading of 'humanities'.

In turning to another aspect of the new curriculum—and I quote—the curriculum will provide

'freedom for practitioners to use their professionalism and creativity to meet the needs of all learners'.

That is at the heart of the Donaldson vision, if truth be told. The White Paper goes on to say that there will be less detail in legislation, in terms of the content of the curriculum, than is the case at the moment, and that the content of the areas of learning and experience will be set out in statutory guidance.

We know that the curriculum and the new assessment arrangements will be published in April for feedback. What many teachers are asking is: when will the supplementary guidance be available and how detailed will that guidance be? Many teachers argue that they need clear and detailed guidance, and they fear that that won’t be available.

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:48, 6 February 2019

The Member is absolutely right; the individual AOLE progression steps and 'what matters' statements will be published in Easter. We are doing that in a format that will allow practitioners and, indeed, any interested parties to feed back. I would accept that there is a balance to be struck between becoming so prescriptive in that guidance that we actually might as well stay where we are, because the nature of the curriculum won't have changed at all if we're to provide long lists of things we expect teachers to do.

You will be aware, from Graham Donaldson's original report, that the way in which our curriculum is currently structured robs teachers of their creativity to truly meet the needs of their individual students. Now, clearly, we will have to provide—in, perhaps, an inelegant way—some scaffolding for the teaching profession, but we cannot, and I will not, fall into the trap of giving to our teachers long lists of prescribed things that I expect them to teach, because to do so would be to fail the vision of what we're trying to do for our curriculum for our young people.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:49, 6 February 2019

(Translated)

UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Photo of Michelle Brown Michelle Brown UKIP

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Good afternoon, Minister. Minister, you've recently announced a new sex and relationships education regime, which is to be imposed on schools and that parents won't be able to opt their child out of. Will you make sure that the new SRE curriculum covers identifying what constitutes abuse, why it's wrong, how to prevent it, and what to do if it happens?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:50, 6 February 2019

First, the Member is wrong to say that I'm denying parents the right to withdraw. If the Member has read the White Paper, she will be aware that there are specific questions in the White Paper about how we tackle the issue of the right to withdraw from such lessons. But I can give the Member absolute reassurance that in ensuring that our children learn about relationships and sexuality, they will learn about issues such as consent, domestic violence, what constitutes a healthy relationship, and where to obtain help if they find themselves in a situation where they are concerned about their safety.

Photo of Michelle Brown Michelle Brown UKIP

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Recently, we've seen the first ever conviction involving a parent performing or allowing female genital mutilation to be performed on their child. Despite years of this abuse taking place and it having been made illegal a long time ago, the UK and Welsh Governments and the institutions under their control have been ineffective at preventing it and dealing with it when it does happen. Do you agree with me that the one way we may be able to help prevent FGM in Wales is by highlighting it as a specific issue when it comes to SRE? A vague message about making sure people respect your body will not be effective in this scenario. It needs highlighting as a specific issue in its own right, doesn't it?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:51, 6 February 2019

Obviously, female genital mutilation is a form of abuse, pure and simple, and it is illegal in our nation. As I said, the Member will have to wait for the individual AOLEs to be published, but we are not going to be in a position where we are listing long, long lists of individual specific subjects. But schools, crucially, have a role to play in supporting, protecting and preventing female genital mutilation, which is why, before summer recess every year, I write to all schools to remind them of their responsibilities and what they can do as summer holidays approach—which is often a danger time for many of our female students, when they may be at risk from this process and procedure—to actually remind them of their responsibilities, what to look out for, danger signs, and crucially what they should do about it if they are worried about any individual child in their school.

Photo of Michelle Brown Michelle Brown UKIP 1:52, 6 February 2019

I understand what you said about not wanting to impose on teachers a long list of items to teach—I understand where you're coming from there, Minister—but FGM is such a horrific abuse of a girl. It's now being undertaken on babies, because, and I quote,

'The girls are unable to report, the cut heals quicker and prosecution is much harder once evidence comes to light and the girl is older.'

That's the end of the quote. So, simply telling girls in school that they should report anyone trying to do it isn't going to work. Increasingly FGM is happening here in Wales, in the UK, so just keeping a note of those girls who are likely to go on holiday and have it done abroad—they might have had it done to them as babies. The whole point is, I would suggest, to educate the next generation of citizens in this country, every single one of them, in SRE, that female genital mutilation is horrific and it cannot be tolerated. Do it right at the word go. Get rid of that acceptance of it in a small part of our community. The charity Barnardo's says that community engagement is key to ending the crime of FGM. So, will you help solve this problem through educating future generations that FGM exists and can't be tolerated?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:54, 6 February 2019

It will not be tolerated, and education has an important part to play in that, but so do many other agencies. The Member raises the issue of FGM in baby girls. Clearly, that is an issue for midwives and the national health service to address. But let me be absolutely clear again: across the Government, across all departments, we recognise FGM as a terrible form of abuse and we will work collectively together to end it.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:55, 6 February 2019

(Translated)

Question 3, Hefin David. 

Photo of Hefin David Hefin David Labour

Diolch, Llywydd. I understand you've grouped questions 3 and 5. Is that correct?