Group 3: Investigation of a health related service: Costs recovery (Amendments 30, 6, 8, 9): 13 Mar 2019: Senedd debates

Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 4:14, 13 March 2019

(Translated)

Which brings us to group 3 of the amendments, and these relate to the investigation of a health-related service costs recovery. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 30. I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group.

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(Translated)

Amendment 30 (Llyr Gruffydd) moved.

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Llyr Gruffydd Plaid Cymru 4:15, 13 March 2019

Diolch, Llywydd. I move amendment 30 and I'll speak to all amendments in this group. Now, amendment 30 confirms that, where the ombudsman has recovered costs incurred as a result of obstruction caused by a provider of health-related services, the ombudsman can retain those recovered costs and does not have to pay them into the Welsh consolidated fund. This provision is similar to the provision that exists in the Bill enabling the ombudsman to retain any fees charged by the ombudsman for supplying copies of reports. So, it introduces greater consistency.

Amendment 6 amends the cross-referencing in section 16, clarifying precisely when a provider of health-related services is deemed to be a listed authority. The effect of this amendment will be that the provider of a health-related service will, for example, receive copies of reports when an investigation relates to the provider. Likewise, when a provider of health-related services is being investigated, the provider is given the same chance to comment on the investigation as a listed authority is given.

Amendments 8 and 9 insert two new sections, which clarify the procedure for recovering certain costs from providers of health-related services. These amendments will ensure that the ombudsman has a clear and efficient way of recovering certain costs from providers of health-related services. Amendment 8 relates to the ombudsman being able to recover costs where he has investigated a health-related service as part of an investigation into a listed authority. This covers where the provider of the health-related service has obstructed the ombudsman or has done something that would constitute contempt of court if the proceedings were in the High Court. Should this happen, the ombudsman may serve a costs recovery notice and amendment 9 makes provision regarding serving a costs recovery notice.

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Mark Isherwood Conservative 4:16, 13 March 2019

I just seek clarification on one point, if I may. Although more detail is given to cost recovery under these amendments and there's been some narrowing of the scope and circumstances in which a healthcare provider can avoid liability for obstruction and contempt under amendment 8, can the Member in charge provide any further clarification of the policy reasons behind the changes made under amendment 8?

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Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 4:17, 13 March 2019

(Translated)

Minister.

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Rebecca Evans Labour

Speaking first to amendments 8 and 9, these amendments do not change the intention of this section. They aim to ensure that the ombudsman is able to recover costs incurred when they have been obstructed by a private healthcare provider.

It is vital that there is a disincentive in the Bill to obstructing the ombudsman, and that private health companies enable the ombudsman to properly determine where fault lies in a public-private healthcare pathway. The need for a power to recover such costs was identified in the original draft of the Bill. However, the original provisions on cost recovery in the Bill would not have functioned as was intended, and the public purse would have to bear the costs of any additional work resulting from obstruction.

Whilst I hope these provisions will not need to be used, I’m grateful to the Member in charge for tabling these amendments and ensuring that the ombudsman will have an effective and enforceable power, should they need it, to prevent the Welsh taxpayer from covering the costs of obstructive behaviour from private providers.

Amendment 6 clarifies the cross-references in the Bill to ensure private health services are captured by the correct provisions in the Bill that refer to listed authorities.

Finally, amendment 30 allows the ombudsman to retain costs recovered rather than returning them to the Welsh consolidated fund. As these costs can only be recovered when they've already been incurred, this is a reasonable change to prevent the ombudsman from needing to absorb extra costs in-year and ensure their resources can be dedicated as agreed by the Finance Committee in that year’s statement.

I’m happy to support the Member in charge's amendments in this group and I would urge Members to do the same and ensure this Bill operates effectively.

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Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 4:19, 13 March 2019

(Translated)

Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

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Llyr Gruffydd Plaid Cymru

Thank you, Llywydd. Just in response to Mark Isherwood, I don't think that, actually, there is a policy change here. This is about a clear, more efficient and more certain procedure for recovering costs, which includes as well, I'd say, relying on magistrates' courts for appeals. So, I don't accept the assertion that there is a substantial policy change here. It's very much offering that clarity and efficiency in the way that the Bill is written. So, I would encourage Members to support the amendments that I've put forward and hope very much that they will do so.