Item 7 on our agenda this afternoon is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, and I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM6990 Andrew R.T. Davies, Bethan Sayed, Huw Irranca-Davies

Supported by: Dai Lloyd, David Rees, Hefin David, Janet Finch-Saunders, Jayne Bryant, Lynne Neagle, Llyr Gruffydd, Mike Hedges, Mohammad Asghar, Suzy Davies

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

 1. Notes:

a) the importance of rugby to the people of Wales, the economic benefits the game delivers, and its special place in the fabric of communities across our nation;

b) the financial and structural challenges currently facing rugby in Wales;

c) the potential ramifications of the Welsh Rugby Union’s ‘Project Reset’ on professional rugby and the regional structure in Wales, and on the additional community and grassroots services the regions currently provide; and

d) the strong concerns voiced by fans regarding a potential merger of the Ospreys and Scarlets’ regions.

2. Calls on the Welsh Government to work with the Welsh Rugby Union and regional/club partners to protect rugby in Wales and develop a sustainable long-term model for the game at a regional and grassroots level.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. And I formally move the motion this afternoon.

I'm sure I speak for many of my fellow contributors in today's debate that it is with some mixed feeling that we bring this motion forward, particularly in the aftermath of Wales's outstanding Grand Slam victory just some 10 days ago. I think the celebrations have just about died down across the nation, following a fantastic win against Ireland, a result that was capped off by an excellent tournament for Warren Gatland, his support staff, and of course the boys in red.

As Members will be aware, along with farming, rugby is one of my great passions—a love of the game that is shared by thousands upon thousands across Wales. And it is really with those supporters in mind—the real lifeblood and backbone of the sport in Wales—that we today debate the future of the professional structure, and the ramifications this will, of course, have for the grass-roots game, from the fields of Cowbridge Rugby Football Club to the RGC in north Wales, and indeed our very own rugby team here in the National Assembly for Wales, which I am always at pains to keep promoting and which goes from strength to strength.

Before exploring some of the detail, first and foremost it would be right to acknowledge the statement and clarification two weeks ago from the professional rugby board that there will be no merger of the Welsh rugby regions next season. Quite rightly, there has also been an apology from the Welsh Rugby Union to the team and the supporters for the disruption Project Reset caused during the six nations, which at one point risked distracting the team from doing the job in hand, and could have put the Grand Slam in jeopardy. Thankfully, their professionalism and the quality of both the rugby players and individuals shone through while the changes to the regional structures were imminent. One suspects that this has been put on the back burner, rather than just dismissed entirely.

Of course, the governance of the game in Wales is completely in the hands of the Welsh Rugby Union and its regional partners, and that is quite right and proper. But fans have been left punch drunk by the recent developments—the second time in just two decades that the professional game in Wales could have been subject to dramatic overhaul. From the grass roots, right up to international level, there has been widespread and grave concern over the proposals that were put forward by Project Reset. The fallout has been explosive. We've had resignations from regional club boards, and whilst the ceasefire might be in place for 2019-20, fans are braced for what comes next. The professional rugby board in Wales, which oversees the professional regional structure remains, and I quote,

'united in its pursuit of what is best', and has reaffirmed that it,

'will not be deterred from the pursuit of a solution to ensure the long-term sustainability of the professional game in Wales.'

For now, the four-region model seems to be in place. But with the desire to expand the professional game to north Wales, the threat to one of the regions currently involved in the Pro14 competition remains. From my personal perspective, both as a supporter and as an Assembly Member, I have no opposition to the potential of a north Wales team. Indeed, I believe promoting our national game to all four corners of the country should be encouraged. However, the handling of the potential restructuring has to be handled delicately and sensitively, with a wide appreciation of the potential ramifications.

Because there's far more at stake than just 15 players turning out on a Saturday for a respective region at Liberty Stadium, Parc y Scarlets, Arms Park, Rodney Parade, or indeed Colwyn Bay. Rugby is vitally important to so many people in Wales, and the benefits it delivers are not simply restricted to 80 minutes on the field of play. The game delivers numerous economic benefits that cannot be understated, particularly in a country where sustained economic prosperity and development have been difficult to achieve at times. And it is on this particular point that I would like to learn more from the Minister this afternoon as to what the Welsh Government has done regarding the benefits that the game, and the regional game, have had for the national economy, and what modelling, if any, has been undertaken to examine its true reach.

I am also intrigued to know how the Government plans to support the game moving forward, and how this sits in the economic strategy, perhaps even utilising our success on the international stage to promote our country overseas, and how the potential sits as part of the Government's newly created international relations department.

Undoubtedly, the game has a special place in the fabric of communities across our nation, and the potential ramifications of Project Reset will have a huge knock-on effect on the vast and wide-ranging communities and grass-roots services that regions provide around Wales. In this Chamber only a few weeks ago, both Dai Rees and Mike Hedges, and others, eloquently illustrated the reach and delivery of community services by the Ospreys in their respective regions and constituencies. And this is clearly something we discount at our peril. I'd be intrigued to hear from the Minister on this potential impact, particularly as the social fabric of Wales is often linked to the well-being and strength of the national game. These regions are built on the long history of successful club rugby in their respective communities and on one of these, the great impact of simply just a few games played in south-west Wales and the loss of those games is far greater.

The financial structure and challenges currently facing rugby in Wales are there for all to see—sadly, only too harshly reflected in the failure of Welsh regions to make it through to this season's knock-out stages of premier European competition, the Champions Cup. At present, we simply do not have the resources to compete with some of our counterparts in England and France. We have to be clever, nimble and creative with what we've got to play with.

We're doing that very well on the international stage. Some might say that we're punching above our weight. But we know now what we need to do to translate that into success on a regional footing. Delivering success and other preparatory elements at the regional level is vital for the long-term health of the game in Wales, but there must also be an acceptance and acknowledgment from the powers that be that this needs to be, and much more emotive indeed, far more difficult than simply arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic or pressing a button and sending a quick press release out.

For any more monumental changes to be accepted in the Welsh rugby fraternity, the WRU, regions, clubs and partners involved will need to ensure that they take the fans with them. The strength of the game in Wales is built upon the hard work of volunteers at amateur clubs up and down the country—from players to groundsmen to bar staff. They are the grass roots; they will be the first port of call for the next generation of Alun Wyn Joneses or Dan Biggars coming through the ranks. We really can't afford to alienate those individuals by delivering another ham-fisted reorganisation of the game in Wales. For me, that’s where the Welsh Government and indeed Assembly Members can play a part.

I'm always slightly reticent to see politicians getting involved in sport, but I really do think that we can't underestimate the importance that rugby plays here in Wales to our economy, and our communities and our people. The Welsh Government plays an active role in supporting the community game and it is vital that there is a coherent and strong message from them moving forward, to see what they can do to help the professional game develop in the years to come. And that is why the Welsh Government should work with the Welsh Rugby Union and regional club partners to protect rugby in Wales and develop a sustainable long-term model for the game at a regional and grass-roots level.

Whilst respecting the governing body’s role to be the guardian of the great game, it is vital that the Welsh Government appreciates its own role in protecting our national sport and this is ever such a gentle reminder that their actions do have national implications. It simply isn't good enough for any of us to shrug our shoulders and watch from the side lines. Communities and people across the country depend on us and, indeed, the game of rugby, and engagement with those communities is going to be vital. We can't be naive and put our heads in the sand. Change is coming, but we need to ensure that this change is well thought out and communicated properly to the thousands of rugby fans across the country.

On the international stage, we're going from strength to strength, and I'm sure that everyone in this Chamber would wish the team well in the up-and-coming Rugby World Cup, but the long-term health and future of the game in Wales is very much on the line. We are at a significant crossroads in Welsh rugby and the next course of action will set in train a series of events that will determine the success of the game at all levels, from international to grass roots. Undoubtedly, tough decisions will be needed, but it is imperative that lessons are learned from the recent handling of Project Reset.

Future proposals and changes must be communicated properly and allow for proper engagement, both with clubs and supporters. However unpopular they might be with some, and let’s be honest, in life, you can't always please everyone, if they are communicated properly, we might ensure that we negate any devastating long-term damage to the fabric of our communities. Without the fans, the game is nothing. As Assembly Members, we must be their voice when appropriate. As a rugby community in Wales, we must ensure that fans are taken on this journey, otherwise we risk the heartbeat of the game being ripped out for good.

Can I declare an interest, first of all, as an Ospreys season-ticket holder and can I commend Andrew R.T. for his opening pronouncements? And I'm also a member of Dunvant RFC as well. 

Now, back in the day, I played rugby for many years, though bafflingly overlooked by selectors. I've never understood why. [Laughter.] And my sons have played for Waunarlwydd and Dunvant through all the year groups, from under 11, under 12, under 13, under 14—so it goes up to youth. And the village rugby club plays the role of youth club. Dozens of children, girls and boys, playing regularly, twice, three times a week, as well as training. And, obviously, this doesn't just apply to rugby. It also applies—certainly in the Swansea area—to football, cricket, athletics and swimming. So much more. There's an army out there of volunteers who sustain all this activity. So, yes, it really is in the soil, is rugby.

Now, there was a surreal point at one stage a week last Saturday when Wales had just won the rugby Grand Slam—again, as Andrew mentioned—then Scotland had recovered miraculously from 31-nil, down, to England to lead 38-31, and, also, at the same time, Swansea City were leading Premier League Champions, Manchester City, two-nil in the FA Cup, and I thought, 'Duw, the capacity of sport to inspire, to turn things on their head, to reach a higher level, never ceases to amaze.' Yes, at that point, it really was surreal, almost a religious experience, really, until I realised that Jesus was playing up-front for Man City—Gabriel Jesus, that is—and normal service was restored, unfairly in the Swans' case. 

Now, in strongly supporting this motion, I shall make a few points as an unashamed Ospreys fan, and, as we would say as Ospreys fans, the only true region. We went through the pain of uniting Swansea and Neath rugby clubs—the most ferocious and bitter of local rivals—over 16 years ago. Some still bear the scars of that. And Ospreylia corresponds to my electoral region of South Wales West, so I would be a fan. And, plainly, the Ospreys have been the most successful rugby region, having won the Pro12 and Pro14 on four occasions. That's the best record of all regions, including the Irish ones, and supplying, notably, obviously, 13 out of the 15 Welsh players for Wales as they beat England at Twickenham in 2008 in Warren Gatland's first game in charge. And as fans down the years, we have thrilled to the talents of Shane Williams, Dan Biggar, Tommy Bowe, Mike Phillips, James Hook, Alun Wyn Jones, Adam Jones,  Duncan Jones, Justin Tipuric, Adam Beard, George North, Owen Watkin—I could go on, but I see the clock is ticking. And Alun Wyn Jones, as a true legend, is about to be given the freedom of Swansea—totally deservedly so.

Now, clearly, the issue is money, and the financial challenges mean that the Ospreys cannot afford to have two international level 15s in their squad. So, let's talk about a bit of reorganisation and a bit of marketing, I would say. Obviously, Saracens and the top English clubs can have two international-level 15s so that when the internationals are on, they're not weakened at all. But when the internationals are on, our regions are weakened. So, let's reorganise the Pro14 season so that games do not clash with the internationals. Let's market the Pro14 properly. There's very swish marketing of the premiership in England. We deserve that in Wales. It is the game of the people. It is our national game—New Zealand and Wales share that accolade. Attracting more money to the game in Wales, obviously, is the huge challenge, but we are in a strong position. We are, after all—. Wales are the Grand Slam champions—I may have mentioned that already—potential world champions, and so the challenge for the WRU, Welsh Government, and all partners is to make sure that we can get the marketing and the financial structures sustainably in place. I'm pleased that the merger is off because ditching your best region was never a clever idea and was met with absolute astonishment and bewilderment in Swansea. Support the motion. Diolch yn fawr.

It's always difficult when you come third to speak on one of these debates. Can I just say I agree with everything Andrew R.T. Davies and Dai Lloyd have said? That's a good place to start.

Can I talk about three positives of Welsh rugby? We've got a very successful national team and a very well-supported national team. The Millennium Stadium can sell out for all internationals, even if the autumn international tickets sometimes need to be bundled in order to sell them all. There's huge enthusiasm and participation in mini and junior rugby. My local club, Morriston, has junior teams at under 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and mini rugby teams at 10, nine, eight, seven and rugby tots. You'd think that there'll be 11 teams in 11 years' time. I tell you now, they'll be struggling to get two.

The final success is women's rugby that has grown both in international attendance—4,113 for Wales versus England—and in the number of women’s teams playing. Another team in my constituency, Bonymaen, have an outstanding women's rugby team.

Now, looking at the first problem facing Welsh rugby, using publicly available figures, the Dragons' average crowd was 5,083 in 2015-16 and fell to 4,700 in 2017-18. The Blues' went from 5,942 to a slight increase of 6,193. The Ospreys' fell from 8,486 to 6,849, but still more than the other two. And Scarlets' have gone from 7,290 to 9,256. The average attendance at two regions is going down; not one region has an average attendance above 10,000. The English rugby premiership is averaging over 12,000. Bordeaux averages over 23,900, Leinster averages over 15,500. Seventy-four and a half thousand turned up at the Millennium, and over a million watched Wales beat Ireland—as David Lloyd I think might've mentioned once—for Wales to win the Grand Slam. And then, only just over 8,000 turned up the following week to watch the Ospreys versus the Dragons.

I asked someone who said they were a rugby fan who they supported, they replied, 'Wales'. When I asked them who else they supported, the question they found absolutely bemusing and said, 'Well, just Wales, of course.' I was trying to get across the point that if you had that conversation with a football fan—if I asked a football fan in Swansea, 'Who do you support?', they'd name the team—hopefully Swansea City—and then they'd say, 'Wales'. They seem to associate with both their club and the country. Far too many people who describe themselves as rugby fans solely associate themselves with the country.

Again, according to published sources, the top 14 clubs in France have a tv deal worth £76 million per season. English rugby has a deal worth £38 million per season, and Welsh rugby is part of a £14 million per year contract. It's easy to see where the problems lie. So, regional rugby suffers from low attendance, relatively poor tv income and is trying to compete with France and England for the best Welsh players. Are the regions in the right places? The Blues, Ospreys and Dragons are in the three largest population centres, whilst the Scarlets cover mid and west Wales and, theoretically, north Wales. Where else could you put them?

Scotland has reduced to two teams. We could have a west Wales team and an east Wales team. What regional rugby has taught us is that merging two teams does not produce an attendance anywhere near the sum of the teams being merged. It's considered a takeover by the fans of one of the teams and they find something else to do on a weekend rather than watch live rugby.

What traditionally would have been done would have been to build a new stadium, a new playing surface, and everything would be wonderful—'We'll get more people there.' Well, the Ospreys and Scarlets have relatively new stadiums and they have good playing surfaces. The only way at the moment to generate more income in Welsh rugby currently is to play more internationals. That's why we played the fourth autumn international when everybody else only plays three. We need the money.

The second problem with Welsh rugby is, firstly, how few teams below the first division have second a team. Does any club below the first division run a third team? And the number of players who stop playing between the ages of 16 and 19—. What the Welsh Government can do is limited. What we can do is to go out and support our local teams. Last Saturday, I saw Glais versus Penlan alongside 52 other people—possibly the two worst teams playing in Welsh rugby. Glais started the match with -9 points; they're now up to -5. And Penlan started with -1. But we need to get people out there watching rugby. The Welsh Rugby Union and others, including ourselves, need to get across the point that rugby is not internationals, it's not winning the Grand Slam, it's not the autumn internationals—it's those games that are played every Saturday. Football's got it across to people. People turn out to watch football every Saturday; people don't with rugby. And Dai Lloyd is, unusually, an Ospreys season-ticket holder—Swansea City has very many more season-ticket holders.

Can I just finish on this point? We have to declare what we are: I'm a season-ticket holder at both Morriston Town and at Bonymaen.

Thank you. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you very much. I’m going to speak about rugby as the game of the whole of Wales. And as everyone else has done, I will declare a series of interests. As one who is going to speak of rugby as a pan-Wales game, I will declare that I was born in the south Wales Valleys and brought up in Merionethshire and on Anglesey. I will also declare that I am a youth coach and a volunteer at Llangefni Rugby Club. I will also declare that I am a flanker for the Assembly rugby team, fresh from our victories over the House of Commons and the House of Lords and the Scottish Parliament.

Yes, rugby is a game that permeates every community in Wales, including this community, our parliamentary community. And I’ll take a swipe at Dai Lloyd here, I think—on occasion, we can be guilty of putting up false walls in Welsh sport. I am not one who likes to question which is our national sport; I happen to be a great rugby supporter as well as being a great supporter of football. I was excited just as much by seeing Wales beat Slovakia last Sunday at the beginning of our European campaign as I was seeing Wales winning the Grand Slam this year.

I also believe that we are guilty of perpetuating this perception, somehow, that rugby, although it is seen as a national game on one level, is also seen as a game that isn’t perhaps as relevant to north Wales. Well, I can tell you that I have had a very fulfilling life in rugby as a north Walian. We have stars that we’re very proud of in George North, who is playing for Wales at the moment, and Robin McBryde, who is a key part of the coaching team. I remember Stuart Roy from my own school winning his international cap, and Iwan Jones too. And I was excited to see Rhun Williams playing superbly as a fullback. As a child, I played for Menai Bridge and for Bangor. I reached the final of the Gwynedd Cup with Ysgol David Hughes. Unlike Dai, I know why the selectors didn’t choose me,  because I wasn’t particularly good—[Laughter.] But I did enjoy playing rugby.

At our club in Llangefni, we have teams and a six, seven, eight, nine and 10, all the way through to under-15s, and a youth team and a first team and a second team. We play across north Wales, from Pwllheli, Blaenau Ffestiniog, Caernarfon, Bangor, Bethesda, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno, Rhyl, Denbigh, Mold, Shotton, Wrexham—that is, it is a game that permeates the whole of north Wales.

Let us bear in mind that part of this plan that caused such discord and so many arguments a few weeks ago was to bring professional rugby to north Wales. I’m not going to be drawn into argument as to whether there should be a merger of the Scarlets and the Ospreys, or any other teams. In my own area, there are many people—. I would say that there are more Ospreys shirts then there are Scarlets shirts, as it happens in my own area, but what Mike Hedges said says it all, doesn't i?

‘Theoretically, the Scarlets is the region covering the north’.

So, it isn’t good enough. And whilst I realise that there are financial limitations on our game in Wales, particularly compared with England and France, for example, if we are serious about making the game a national game, then we must ensure that it’s a professional game at a national level too. And the response of north Wales to the Wales under-20 games in Colwyn Bay is proof of the appetite that there is to see rugby at the highest level in north Wales. Llyr.

Thank you for allowing me to make a short comment. I think it’s worth reminding people also that rugby has always been a national game, because for those who perhaps don’t know, Bangor rugby club was one of the founding members of what is the Wales Rugby Union back in 1881—one of the 11 clubs. So, north Wales has always had a prominent role in national rugby.

Yes, that’s entirely true, and the plaque is still on the wall in Bangor rugby club marking that.

A little over 10 years ago, the WRU made a mistake in relation to rugby in north Wales. I know because I was a great supporter of Llangefni Rugby Club at that time, which won promotion to the second division of the national league. And the WRU’s decision was not to promote them, but to demote them to the new division four in north Wales, and that had a huge impact on rugby, certainly in Llangefni, where many people decided to stop playing and lost some of their love for the game. We’ve moved a long way from that point. The WRU did respond positively to the backlash at that point, and Rygbi Gogledd Cymru was established, and now we are in a position where we are looking forward to take the next step.

I delight in seeing the young boys that I train being selected for youth teams in north Wales. There were a dozen of them, almost, playing in games earlier this week. Getting a professional team, creating those idols for them in their own region, would be a major step forward, and I look forward to seeing this conversation continue, and I hope that the end point will be to bring professional rugby to north Wales, taking nothing away from the excellent professional teams we already have in the south.

Thank you. Can I now call on the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, Dafydd Elis-Thomas?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. This has been a debate that is beneficial for the Assembly as a whole, because it demonstrates that we can discuss a motion that has been signed by Members of all parties, and there will also be a free vote on the motion, with the exception, of course, that members of the Government will abstain—not because we disagree necessarily with anything that is contained within the motion as tabled, but because we don't feel that it's appropriate to call for the Government to work with the WRU in relation to the development of clubs and partnerships at a regional level without being clear in our understanding of what that wording means. Because, as I sought to explain clearly a fortnight ago, when I sought to respond to questions when they were first posed by Andrew R.T. Davies, Dai Lloyd, Mike Hedges—and I’m also grateful to Rhun ap Iorwerth for his contribution today, and to all of you for your contributions to this debate—I don't believe that a Government can instruct a body that is independent in its constitution, that is voluntary in nature and that is culturally crucial, in terms of how that body should behave.

I want to make a comparison, which might be unexpected to some of you. I remember being on the other side of the discussion in terms of the relationship between the National Eisteddfod and the Welsh Government, many years ago. Although I did see that it was important that the Government was able to invest in developments, particularly infrastructure development, to support culture, I don’t believe that it’s the role of Government to invest directly or to seek to collaborate directly with the national rugby team, any local rugby team, or indeed with cultural festivals such as those that we have the length and breadth of Wales.

There’s been a strong emphasis on rugby as a national sport here in Wales, but the changes that we have seen in the game emanate from its growth as a global sport, and an important part of that, in my view, was that seven-a-side rugby became part of the Olympic Games and it created an interest in nations that traditionally hadn't played the game in the past, and the fact that we are reaching a position where there are 20 nations competing in the world cup demonstrates how international rugby has grown. And that, of course, is a challenge to societies and communities that have followed rugby traditionally, but also to the professional administration of rugby and to the decisions that have to be taken as a result of these changes.

The successes of Wales in the five nations championship, in the six nations championship from the 2000s onwards, winning five championships, four grand slams and the seven-a-side rugby cup, all of these successes, and our ability to attract coaches of global renown such as Warren Gatland—this all demonstrates the success of the game, as does the development of the women’s team and the success that they had in the six nations with an excellent win against Ireland.

This all demonstrates how rugby is central to our culture. But that’s not the argument. We demonstrated our stance as an Assembly and as a Senedd and as a Government very clearly in this building last week, where we can celebrate the success of our national team. And our support and our assistance to rugby permeates through all provision. We are supportive of the development of all sorts of rugby at local levels. For example, last week, I was at the very special competition arranged by the WRU with schools and pupils with learning difficulties. There were 300 young people, led by Sport Caerphilly, who were participating in that festival of rugby. And I had an opportunity too to be at the recent launch—within the last week in fact—of the seven-a-side rugby competition where the WRU is working with the Urdd.

The funding that we provide through Sport Wales, in partnership with them, of over £850,000 per annum to the WRU is a sign of the support that we are providing. And this is getting a response. I was very pleased with the clear description that we heard from Rhun ap Iorwerth of rugby as a national sport and a game that is played on all levels within our communities. The figures do demonstrate that: 41 per cent, according to the schools sports survey, have played rugby at least once in any given location over the past year, and that’s an increase of 8 per cent over the last three years since the last survey was conducted. The Hub schools rugby programme of the WRU is growing, and 89 schools are participating in that scheme, and hundreds of boys and girls are playing regularly. Therefore, in that context we see the efforts by the WRU to re-establish our regions.

Now, I’m not going to make any comment on those events. Any comments I have made have been made in private and I don’t intend to make them as a Minister any more than I did a fortnight ago. But the Welsh Government has taken a professional interest, as we should do as a Government, through our officials and through our informal discussions, in what the WRU has been seeking to do. But we are not going to come to a position where we inform the WRU, any more than we would inform any other body, how to organise their own activities. Therefore, I do hope that those comments demonstrate clearly that we do have an understanding of the role of Government in relation to the development of rugby, but that this does not mean that we are seeking to instruct any of our sporting bodies, any more than our cultural bodies, that we are trying to intervene in the way that they conduct their business.

If I may make one appeal in conclusion, I think it is important that the discussion on the future of the Welsh rugby teams and the regional rugby system happens in a spirit that is similar to the discussion that we have had today. I don’t want—and I think Rhun and Andrew R.T. emphasised this, as did Mike Hedges, in their various contributions—. We don’t want to see parochialism and regional negativism, or an area-against-area approach emerging in this discussion. What we want to see is to demonstrate the same kind of spirit that was so apparent in Cardiff in our success at the end of this year’s six nations, and that that spirit too can enlighten people’s views across all levels of rugby in Wales.

Diolch. I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm delighted to sum up with a few comments here on the debate we've just heard and first of all to welcome the fact that this debate has been called and we've had so many contributions. I, like many Assembly Members, have been in many touchline discussions with mums and dads, players, coaches and others over the last few weeks and months about the future of regional rugby, and I think it's a good opportunity, I have to say, for some of those views to be aired now in the Senedd. And that's what we've heard here today. I thought at one point, Dirprwy Lywydd, it was going to be entirely an Ospreys-led debate, but thank goodness we then had interventions from north Wales and other areas as well, otherwise it would indeed have been parochial, as the Minister said.

But I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for opening this debate. He used those words there about having a clever, nimble and creative solution for regional rugby. That does actually reflect some discussions I've been having today with some very good clubs at grass-roots level who've come through difficult times but have put themselves on a good footing: a very good structure at national level with the WRU, but a real fragility and issues around sustainability at the regional level. I think the Minister's closing remarks there about not being parochial in this are the ones we need to listen to, which is: can we look at what is good for the game for supporting that regional basis in Wales, right across Wales? But also, as many Members have rightly pointed out, that regional basis, if we get it right, also sustains huge impact within community outreach, support for clubs within that region and so on. So, we do need to get this right.

I think most Members remarked in their comments that they were glad to see that Project Reset has been temporarily shelved. This gives us an opportunity—this gives the WRU, professional players, associations, the players themselves, but also the fans, I think—to get involved now in looking at what the structure going forward could be. Ultimately, these are commercial and business decisions, of course, at a regional level, but, as was remarked there by Andrew R.T. Davies in his opening remarks, the importance of this, which has come through consistently here, is about taking the fans with them. That of course includes my own region, with the Ospreys, but all the regions, and of course it includes those regions where there is great potential as well, including in north Wales. I think this opportunity now of taking a temporary pause and having a really good look at what is in the best interests of all of Wales in terms of regional rugby, but taking the fans with you, is critical. And I think that's the thing that caused some consternation for supporters, whether they were lifetime debenture holders of Bonymaen or Bethesda or, as I am, president of Maesteg Rugby Football Club, and so on—all of us concerned about the speed and in some ways the chaotic nature of day after day announcements around Project Reset. At least now things can be calm and go forward with some consideration.

Dai Lloyd—again an Ospreys season ticket holder, and a Dunvant club regular as well—mentioned very much the role, that the club does act very much as a youth club, in effect, as well, as so many of our grass-roots rugby clubs do, indeed. He remarked on the fact, in terms of the Ospreys-Scarlets merger—in his words, ditching your best region was never a clever idea. Mike absolutely turned to the successes that are currently there, and we do have many—as others have remarked, it is our women's rugby that is going from strength to strength, and we need to make sure that that is not only at a national and regional level, but also at that club level as well—and junior rugby success as well in participation, but also in the success on the field as well. But he did point out the challenge that we have—those low crowds in regional rugby, particularly in Wales, compared to what is happening in France and England and Ireland and elsewhere. Something is going wrong in terms of the audience's willingness to attend and stand on the touchline and support these clubs. That is different from being on tv. Mike, I'll happily give way.

Of the 20 best-supported rugby teams in Europe, Wales has got none.

Well, absolutely, and there's something quite chilling within that as well. What has happened to that—and in comparison with football, where they've clearly got it right, as Mike said earlier on? What have we got wrong in our regional rugby set-up that people are not going to watch it there, to stand alongside the pitch, in good stadia with good facilities—but they're not going to watch it, they're not taking their families? So, that is something that the regional clubs now and the WRU need to look at.

Rhun rightly reminded us, with some great history of his own, that rugby is an all-Wales game and that it permeates north Wales, and I think everybody who's been involved in this debate recognises that, actually, one of the areas of great potential now is indeed in north Wales. And not simply in north-west Wales, but north-east Wales as well, right across that whole area. So, I think this opportunity of pause and reflection is how can we do that without actually ripping up the successes elsewhere the region, and build sustainability into the game there and bring forward a whole new raft of star players for our national team as well. But he stressed as well, again, as many have, that grass roots are important. But building on the success of Rygbi Gogledd Cymru, I think we can see the platform there that there is to take things forward.

I can see I've exhausted my time. I simply want to put one other remark to the Minister, understanding that the Welsh Government—it's not their job to step in here and organise this and come up with some master plan, but I think, actually, taking that professional interest and having those discussions about the importance domestically, but also globally of the game of rugby, to brand Wales—.

And my final comment, if I can abuse my position of closing up is: Minister, please, will the Welsh Government take a keen interest in six nations being on free-to-air? There are things that we know the value of, the price of, and then things that we know the cost of. And if you look at the tragic tale of the England cricket board selling the rights to Sky in 2004, at big money that they reinvested in their game, and over 10 years the number of adults players in cricket dropped by 20 per cent when it went behind the paywall. There were 6.6 million people who watched live coverage of the six nations Wales against England match—6,580,000 of those were watching it on tv. So, let's not put it behind a paywall. Let's keep the excitement going on in Welsh rugby and let's give the sustainability to regional rugby that it needs.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] You object. Therefore we'll have this vote in voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.