Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:42 pm on 2 April 2019.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:42, 2 April 2019

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. The Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch Llywydd. Last night, the House of Commons rejected the idea of a confirmatory referendum as a means of unbreaking the parliamentary logjam by just 12 votes. Does the First Minister join with me in regretting the fact that 24 Labour MPs voted against? Had they voted in line, of course, with Labour Party policy and indeed the Labour whip last night, it would have given a clear majority in favour of a people's vote. In particular, do you regret, as leader of the Labour Party in Wales, that your deputy, Carolyn Harris MP, failed to back party policy? And is it your view that her position is now untenable as deputy leader of the Labour Party in Wales? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:43, 2 April 2019

Well, Llywydd, let me say that I regret the fact that the House of Commons was unable to find a majority for any of the propositions put in front of it last night. I was very glad that Plaid Cymru and the Labour Party—that our positions in the House of Commons was to support both common market 2.0 and the proposition that Adam Price has referred to, because that is entirely consistent with the position that the Welsh Government has advocated over recent weeks and months. 

The message I want to give to Members of Parliament of all parties is this: we face the most serious moment in this whole Brexit journey, where the risk of crashing out of the European Union without a deal, with all the catastrophic impacts that we know that Sir Mark Sedwill has warned the UK Cabinet about this morning, that those risks would become realities for people in Wales. And faced with those realities, what I urge Members of Parliament to do is not to go on simply being willing to support the one option that is the closest one to their preference, but to be willing to vote in favour of a range of possible possibilities that mitigate that risk and that lead us to a form of Brexit, or a second referendum, that would be able to protect the interests of people not just in Wales, but across the United Kingdom. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:45, 2 April 2019

I note the First Minister didn't respond to my specific question, and I know that it's become normal, of late, for leaders and deputy leaders in the Labour Party to have diametrically opposed views, but I wasn't aware up until now that that malaise now seems to be infecting the Labour Party in Wales. I interpret the fact that he didn't answer that he doesn't have full confidence in the deputy leader of the Labour Party in Wales.

He referred to the Cabinet Secretary's letter outlining the consequences of a 'no deal' Brexit. Indeed, you have yourself previously described this scenario as catastrophic. In the light of that, can you say why you and, indeed, your frontbench colleagues at Westminster—in contrast, it has to be said, to a very substantial number of backbench Labour MPs—decided not to support a revocation amendment, which would, at the very least, provide us with an emergency break to prevent the catastrophe that you describe?

The Prime Minister this morning has reportedly briefed the Cabinet that if her deal is once more rejected, then the choice will be between no deal and revocation, and in that scenario she prefers no deal. If that is the choice we are facing, possibly in a matter of days, will you and your party continue to oppose revocation when it may be the only lifeline left?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:46, 2 April 2019

Well, Llywydd, I think the Members of the Assembly will want to consider the deep seriousness of a revocation decision, because the ruling of the European Court of Justice was very clear on what revocation would mean. Revocation cannot be used as a tactic. Revocation cannot be used to buy time for further discussions. The ECJ's ruling said that any member state that used revocation could only do it on the basis that it was—and here's what the court said—'unequivocal and unconditional'. In other words, revocation would overturn the referendum. It would reverse the referendum without the possibility of going back to ask people in this country what they thought of that decision. It would have to be unequivocal and unconditional. You are removing the intention to leave the European Union in a way that you could not go on to reverse. So, it's really important that people grasp the seriousness of that course of action.

Now, Adam Price puts it to me as to what my view, at least, would be if we were in that very final moment where the only choice was between a crash-out Brexit or revocation. Because of the serious impact that a crash-out Brexit would have on people here in Wales, at that point, if I were casting a vote, I would cast it for revocation, because the consequences are so catastrophic for families in Wales. But for me, it would absolutely have to be that we knew we were in that final moment, because the constitutional and political consequences of using that course of action are really very, very profound.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:48, 2 April 2019

I welcome what the First Minister has just said, and I urge him now to carry that message on revocation as a final means of avoiding catastrophe, and also to urge the deputy leader of the party in Wales here to vote for the second referendum, because, as we both accept, the consequences of inaction at this stage of abstention are really too horrendous for us to contemplate. 

Can I turn to another matter? Last week, the High Court found that the Welsh Government acted unlawfully and breached the promise of independence in relation to the inquiry by Paul Bowen QC, made in a press statement of November 10 last year. Can you confirm that the Government accepts the ruling of the court in full, and whether you have issued an apology to the Sargeant family or plan to do so? Do you intend to waive your right to appeal? Are you able to tell the Senedd how you propose to respond substantively to the judgment in the case in relation to the arrangements governing the inquiry? In particular, do you intend to accept the suggestion made in the judgment that the Presiding Officer nominates a person to make final decisions on the operating protocol of the inquiry, or, as suggested by Mr Bowen, that the inquiry be converted into an inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005?

Can you say when you personally first became aware that a prior remit of the operating protocol for the inquiry was given to the Permanent Secretary on 9 November, and that the former First Minister continued to have direct influence over the protocol, breaching the promise of independence? Finally, in view of the damage done to the reputation of the Welsh Government for transparency, openness and honesty, will you now publish a redacted version of the leak inquiry report as previously requested by the Senedd and recently requested by backbench Members of your own party?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:50, 2 April 2019

Llywydd, I'm able to answer a number of those questions. First of all, I can confirm that the Welsh Government of course accepts the judgment of the High Court in full. I can confirm that I first became aware of the terms of the judicial review and the issues at stake on it when I was briefed on that matter on becoming First Minister. I can also confirm that I am in the process of receiving substantive advice on what the judgment says and the courses of action available to me. As soon as I'm able to resolve those issues, I will issue a statement to the Assembly setting out my decisions.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:51, 2 April 2019

(Translated)

Leader of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. Why has your Government failed to support GPs at a time they are describing as a crisis for the profession?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Llywydd, this Government has always supported GPs. It's why we have in successive years negotiated successfully new terms and conditions and new contracts with GPs year after year. It's why we provided a significant uplift to the contract last year, and why we wanted to provide a further significant uplift in the contract for next year as well—a 5.4 per cent uplift in 2019-20, well beyond what was available to their counterparts in other parts of the United Kingdom. Our discussions with General Practitioners Committee Wales will resume, we hope, very shortly, and we look forward to agreeing with them further significant investment in GP services in Wales.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:52, 2 April 2019

Come on, First Minister, you can't ignore what you're being told by GPs. The British Medical Association in Wales spoke out at the weekend with what they called sadness over how recent contract negotiations with your Government had gone. Chairwoman of the general practitioners committee, Charlotte Jones, said that your overall approach to discussions had been disappointing and that the result—I quote—fell well short of a deal where the committee could actually look doctors in the eye and say it was good for the profession. Now, your Minister issued a statement yesterday about the launch of the scheme for general medical practice indemnity, despite it being so loudly rejected by the committee. This same voice says the Welsh Government has failed to support it at a time of crisis.

But it's not just GPs, First Minister. We've asked you to act to tackle the drop in the number of midwives in Wales, and now we see recent figures that, despite increasing strains on the NHS, there is a decrease in nursing and health visiting staff numbers, too. Why, First Minister, are people being driven from the healthcare profession here in Wales? What does this mean for the people of the country and what are you doing about it?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:53, 2 April 2019

Llywydd, let me put on the record for Members something of the discussions that we have had with GPC Wales over the last month, and indeed with Dr Jones, with whom I've worked, and I know the current health Minister has worked, very closely and very constructively over the many years that she has provided leadership to the GP community in Wales. So, the Welsh Government first provided a set of proposals to the GPC in Wales at the beginning of March. Initial comments were received from GPC Wales on 11 March and again on 13 March. Further discussions went on and by 25 March, GPC wished to explore an alternative set of ideas with us. We remain ready to do that. We look forward to a further meeting with them. The leader of the opposition is quite wrong when he suggests that GPC Wales have rejected the state-backed indemnity scheme that we have proposed. It's as a result of their coming to us to talk about the pressures that indemnity insurance places on GPs that we have developed such a scheme, and done it in very close negotiation with his Government in England, who have proposed a very similar scheme for GPs there. We look forward to those discussions continuing and them coming to a successful conclusion. 

In relation to the second point that the Member raised, Llywydd, last week there were figures published for staffing in the Welsh NHS. In 2017, for the first time, the number of people employed in the Welsh NHS went above the 90,000 mark. The figures published most recently show that that's 92,500 people, and a further significant increase in the number of doctors, in the number of consultants, in the number of therapists, in the number of scientific and technical staff who work in the NHS, in the number of ambulance staff. I notice the Member doesn't mention any of these. He doesn't mention any of those groups where we have had significant rises in the number of staff in the NHS. The figures show a very small reduction in the number of nurses and midwives, and we are very confident that the training programmes we have in place, which have very significantly increased the numbers of nurses and midwives in training, will reverse that trend and that there will be increases in those staffing numbers as well in the coming 12 months. 

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:56, 2 April 2019

Well, let me give you some figures, First Minister. Recent figures from the national survey show that nearly half of people in Wales admitted to having trouble seeing their GP last year. This number has increased over the years. And your own Minister has actually quoted these figures in a recent statement that he actually issued to this Chamber. Now, despite being warned of this by professional bodies like the British Medical Association and Royal College of General Practitioners Wales, as well as being challenged by us on these benches on several occasions, your party has looked the other way and failed to address this problem. We even saw 15 GP practices close across the country last year. Patient satisfaction figures have slipped over the years, and community doctors are leaving the profession with an almost 20 per cent drop since 2017, forcing practices to close. Now, your Minister may well have put out a recent statement acknowledging that people's expectations are not being met, but it's not good enough, First Minister. How will you here today reassure the people of Wales that your Government supports the continuation of local healthcare in all communities across the country?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:57, 2 April 2019

Well, Llywydd, it is absolutely the policy of this Government to strengthen local provision of services and to bring services closer to people. It is no surprise to anybody, nearly a decade into austerity, that public services feel the stresses and strains. And, of course, confidence levels in the Welsh NHS are significantly above where his party is in charge of the health service, in England. And those figures are particularly true when it comes to primary care. So he's quite wrong to suggest that the services that GPs provide are not appreciated by their patients; we know that they are every day.

But, we also know that our GP community has to do more to match the expectations of patient populations as far as access is concerned. And we also know that the way in which individual GP practices organise access varies very considerably and that there are some practices that are a good deal more successful in finding systems that allow them to meet that demand than others. That's the standards work that the health Minister published only a week or so ago. It says to our GP community that, in exchange for the very substantial investment we make in primary care and want to go on making in primary care, we expect, and patients have a right to expect, that there will be a set of common standards—that if you rely on the telephone to contact your GP practice, that telephone will be answered in a timely fashion, that if you expect to have a service through the medium of Welsh as well as in English, that you have a proper expectation that that service will be provided bilingually, and a set of other measures that were set out in Vaughan Gething's statement. We want to work with the GP community to secure those standards, because in that way, the very high levels of satisfaction that patients have in Wales with those services will go on being secured. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:59, 2 April 2019

(Translated)

Leader of the UKIP group, Gareth Bennett. 

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 2:00, 2 April 2019

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, April is the month where we often experience a rise in grass fires. The vast majority of grass fires in Wales are, unfortunately, started deliberately. Can you outline what the Welsh Government is doing to educate people about the dangers of starting grass fires?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

I thank the Member for that question. It's timely in the sense that, as we go into the Easter period, we know that that is often a moment when grass fire numbers go up. There has been very significant success by our fire service in Wales in this aspect of what they do, as well as in many other aspects, to take preventative measures to find ways of better protecting those areas so that fires don't get started in the first place. We have employed some experimental work, using behavioural science methods to find a way of communicating with those people whom we know are most likely to be involved in setting fires in these circumstances, and to expose them to some of the risks that that poses to others and to try to influence their behaviour in that way. So, our primary method is by working closely with the fire service and using the success that they have had, but also to find other ways in which we can have access to and influence those groups that are most likely to be involved in activity of this sort.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 2:01, 2 April 2019

I thank you for that answer. I think that that is a good approach, and I look forward to more information on that from the Government as and when you have it. Now, most of these fires, by their nature, tend to occur in rural areas or above Valleys communities. Most of the firefighters involved are, therefore, retained fire officers, meaning that they are people who have other jobs as well. Two years ago, we did have a crisis of a sort with the number of retained firefighters in Wales at an all-time low. What more can the Welsh Government do to support retained firefighters and the companies that employ them?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:02, 2 April 2019

First of all, Llywydd, can I pay tribute to the work of retained firefighters in all parts of Wales? They provide an essential service. They do so in the way that Gareth Bennett has said, often as part of other work that they do. We want to emphasise to those employers the public service that those people provide, and to try to persuade them to make their contribution as well by making it easy for people employed in those circumstances to be released in those emergencies when their services are needed, and to think of that as a contribution that they, as employers, make, and that's both public sector employers and private employers as well, to regard that as part of their corporate social responsibility, as it's usually described.

More generally, as the Member will know, the fact that there are fewer fires in Wales, and that the fire service has succeeded to the extent that it has in preventing problems from arising, inevitably produces some challenges to retaining the workforce that has been there in the past when their primary task is in decline. What we have wanted to do in Wales is to find other ways in which we can deploy the talents and the skills of those people, particularly looking for ways in which they can assist other emergency services, and the health service in particular.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 2:03, 2 April 2019

Again, yes, there's much in that answer that I would welcome. Grass fires, obviously, are a menace. They can destroy habitats, they kill livestock and they even threaten properties and businesses. First Minister, you did mention the educational side in an earlier answer, which I welcome, as I say. Is there a need for a cross-cutting strategy, going across the various ministerial portfolios, in order to deal with this problem?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:04, 2 April 2019

Well, I'm perfectly happy to think about that, but I think, actually, this is one of the areas where the success that we have seen suggests that that work is already being successfully undertaken. I know that the way that local authorities, as well as education interests, work with the fire service and other emergency services has been at the heart of the way in which we have approached trying to deal with grass fires and other examples of anti-social behaviour involving arson conducted in Wales. I think, Llywydd, it is a testament to the way in which authorities already work across boundaries and with the Welsh Government that we've seen the success that we have.