3. What discussions has the First Minister had to strengthen the accountability of universities? OAQ53719

I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. Universities are autonomous bodies whose accountability lies with their governing councils. The Higher Education Funding Council for Wales regulates the sector on behalf of Welsh Ministers, and discussions are under way to identify ways in which its guidance to governing bodies can be strengthened.

I'm grateful to the First Minister for his answer, and I will be interested to see the strengthened guidance. However, the First Minister will be aware that there are issues in the sector now that need addressing. I refer particularly, of course, to the situation in Swansea, of which I know he is well aware, and I entirely accept the First Minister's point that universities are autonomous and, of course, we would all wish them to remain so. But they are, nevertheless, in receipt of very substantial amounts of public funding and they perform an economic function and importance, particularly in poorer communities, that outweigh that.

The First Minister will be aware that HEFCW has in the past raised concerns about the robustness of governance arrangements at Swansea University, and I seek the First Minister's assurance today that the education Minister will be working with HEFCW to address any of those weaknesses. In particular, the outstanding situation, where we have senior staff who've been suspended for months on end with no due process, is surely evidence of an organisation that needs more support than it appears to be getting at the moment. I appreciate the First Minister may not feel that he's able to give a public answer today, but I do hope that, through HEFCW, he and the education Minister are ensuring that those ongoing processes can be brought to an end as quickly as possible, for the sake of both the institution and the individuals involved. 

I want to thank the Member for the question. I want to respond to the important general points that she makes, and I understand both her strength of feeling and the knowledge that she has of the specific matter that she has raised. But in relation to the general point, the Welsh Government funds higher education provision and HEFCW monitors institutions. And that split of responsibilities is there in order to ensure that the autonomy of those institutions is respected for the reasons that Helen Mary Jones recognised in her supplementary question. 

But it is because of concerns about the quality of provision and academic integrity that the Minister in her remit letter to HEFCW for 2019-20 sought new assurances from them that institutions are taking these matters seriously, and that there are strengthened measures being put in place. Officials of the Welsh Government are in discussions with HEFCW about how to make sure that there are strengthened risk-review measures in place, and that we can strengthen the guidance that HEFCW provides to those governing bodies. They do, as the Member said, spend very significant sums of public money. They do so in a way that has a direct impact on local economies and the prospects of local populations, and it is absolutely right and proper that the standards to which those governing bodies respond are the ones that we would expect to see, and that we can have confidence that they are doing so in a way that would stand up to examination.  

First Minister, it would be rude of me to ask here what your current pay rate is, but I think it's fair to say that if you were a vice-chancellor you'd be the poorest paid in Wales, and I do think this is something of a measure. When the pay of senior officers at universities is considerably above what you get, then they need clear justification for that, and they do need to be held accountable. They are challenging jobs, and sometimes this can be appropriate, but they certainly need to be aware of the ratio of top pay to median pay in their organisations.  

Llywydd, I entirely agree with what David Melding has said. I, myself, am very convinced that a standard ratio of top to median pay is a way of demonstrating to everybody who works in that organisation the value that those organisations place upon the contribution that they make. And when you have people at the very top of an organisation doing, I agree, demanding and challenging jobs, but when those people are in a position to see their own pay pull away from the remuneration that is available to everybody else who makes a contribution to that organisation, whatever part they play in it, then I think that does not send a helpful message to everybody else that their work is valued and that their contribution is just as important in its own way as the contribution made by any other person working for the organisation.