7. Debate on the Finance Committee Report: The Implementation of Fiscal Devolution in Wales

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:50 pm on 3 April 2019.

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Photo of Mike Hedges Mike Hedges Labour 4:50, 3 April 2019

It's interesting to come to a report that could be best summed up as, 'Everything's gone well.' You can tell that by the number of people who are taking part in the debate and the number of people in here. If the statement had been that everything had gone badly, it would be a very lengthy debate, we'd be struggling to make it within the hour, and people would be queueing up for it.

If I can just answer Nick Ramsay's last point, we were told that the border was being sorted out by the land registry and they were going to actually work out exactly which properties were which side of the border, and we were then told it had been done. It might have been a meeting or part of a meeting you missed, but we have actually been told that it's now been done by the land registry. So, you can put somewhere in, and they can work out not only which country it's in, or nation it's in, but they can also say how much of it is in each, which solves what I always thought was a problem, and Steffan Lewis always said would be very easy to resolve—and he proved to be right.

We've had council tax and non-domestic rates devolved for some time. The Wales Act 2014 devolved certain taxes and borrowing powers to Wales, and enabled the Welsh Government to legislate in respect of stamp duty land tax and landfill tax. That also legislates for the partial devolution of income tax, the Welsh rate of income tax. Land transaction tax and landfill tax went live, as Llyr Gruffydd said, on 1 April 2018, and are administered by the Welsh Revenue Authority. We have now reached the end of the first year of devolved land transaction and landfill disposals taxes. I look forward to seeing the end-of-year outturns for these taxes, and ask that, at the very least, a written statement is provided to this Assembly saying exactly what they are.

The evidence provided to this committee suggests that the implementation of fiscal devolution to Wales has, so far, been largely successful. The committee recognises that it's still early days in the process, but believes the positive work that has been undertaken so far should be acknowledged. Landfill disposals tax raises very little money, and the amount raised is reducing year on year. The aim of the tax when it was first brought in was to affect behaviour rather than to raise money. It was brought in to increase the cost of landfill disposals, compared to recycling, and thus make it not cost-effective to continue to use landfill, and that's actually worked, because Wales is one of the best recycling nations in the world. But the aim—while it's nice to raise money, success for the landfill tax would be to raise no money at all, because nothing was being put into landfill. I think most people in this room would see that as a huge success.

Land transaction tax has the ability to vary enormously between years. Between 2007-08 and 2010-11, it was estimated to have dropped by half. It's the second most volatile tax. Capital gains tax is the most volatile tax, but it is second in terms of volatility. So, it's nice to have it; it's going to be great, year on year, when we either do very well, and the Government gets up and says, 'Look how well we've done with land transaction tax,' or it does very badly and the opposition get up and say, 'See, your land transaction tax hasn't worked.' The reality is that it's going to vary year on year. Outside of recession, it's remarkably stable, and slow, steady growth has been predicted by the OBR, but the OBR has always predicted slow, steady growth for everything. They don't believe we're ever going to have a recession I think they could well be wrong. There will be a recession at some time, and we'll have a substantial drop in this income.

We're going to enter the first year of partially devolved income tax. The Welsh Government can vary the rate of income tax, but has made a commitment not to increase it before the 2011 election. The Scotland Act 1998 transferred the power to legislate—[Interruption.] It's 2021, sorry. I was elected in 2011. Thank you. [Interruption.] It is—2021, sorry. The Scotland Act 1998 transferred the power to legislate for local taxation and also the power to vary income tax by plus or minus 3p in the pound. This was not used by Labour or the SNP-led Governments in Scotland, and I cannot foresee the income tax basic rate being varied in Wales. Increase it, and there will be voter backlash to paying more than England; decrease it, and there'll be even greater cuts in public services. You really are stuck with what it is. You have a power that is very difficult, if not impossible, to use.

One of the things I believe all of us in the Assembly should do, and I believe have a duty to do, is to explain, as Nick Ramsay did earlier, that it's not an additional tax. It's not another 10p; it is actually just a movement of part of the tax coming to the Welsh Government directly, rather than indirectly. Whilst it'll be reallocated to Wales, the tax collection will be exactly the same as it is now.

Finally, there's an opportunity to bring in new taxes. There is a proposal for a land value tax. Some other taxes have also been considered, including one on disposal of plastics. Will the finance Minister provide an update on progress made on bringing forward a land value tax? And will the finance Minister provide an update on progress made on bringing forward other new taxes? Because there are great opportunities in the taxation system to make it fairer.