Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:44 pm on 14 May 2019.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:44, 14 May 2019

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. The Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, a month ago you told the BBC that in the event of a crash-out Brexit, there would be food products that would not be available to the public in supermarkets. You said you didn't believe that this would lead to food shortages to individuals, but that the economic impact would be devastating to the food sector, particularly to businesses relying on fresh produce. Can you confirm that every frozen and chilled storage warehouse in Wales is already full to capacity, even with the current Brexit delay?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:45, 14 May 2019

Well, the Member makes the important point, Llywydd. I repeat what I said a while ago, that as far as the shops are concerned, people will not have the range and the choice of products that they have come to enjoy during our membership of the European Union if we leave the European Union without a deal. And those in Wales who rely on producing food that is exported to the European Union will equally find their businesses put at risk if they suddenly face new barriers—not of tariffs but of the non-tariff variety—that will mean that there will be a very significant threat to large parts of Welsh food producers. I don't want to give the Member a definitive answer without being certain that I have it properly in front of me, but my understanding is probably close to what he was suggesting—that the food sector is already using whatever capacity it has to prepare against the day when we leave the European Union without a deal.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:46, 14 May 2019

I can confirm that the cold storage sector in Wales is full to capacity—it has been, I believe, for some months, and, First Minister, you should be aware of this yourself because your own Government, prompted by concerns within the sector, commissioned a study before Christmas into cold storage capacity in Wales that was completed in January. Now, why have you refused to publish that study, and given the understandable public concern, will you commit to doing so now?

In a response to a written question from me, asking what representations you had received as a Government about a potential lack of capacity for cold food storage facilities in Wales, the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs rather pointedly replied that you had only received a representation from one business within the sector. Can you confirm, First Minister, that there are only two companies in the sector in Wales and the one you received representation from—Wild Water Group—operates two of the three cold storage facilities for food in Wales? Can you confirm specifically that they have asked you to urgently invest in the development of a new storage facility because of the pressure Brexit has already put on the food sector and supply chain in Wales? You've done precisely this for medical supplies. Given the lack of warehouse capacity in that area, why not do the same for food, given the devastating impact you yourself claim the pressure on supply chains Brexit will cause?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:48, 14 May 2019

Well, Llywydd, just to say that I'm not aware of any request that has come directly to me to release a report. I'm very happy to look to see the status of that report and if it was intended for wider circulation.

My colleague Lesley Griffiths has met the retail consortium this morning and received assurances from them about the steps that they are taking in relation to making sure that there are supplies of food available here in Wales. The Member is of course right to say that in the field of medical supplies we have found storage space to ensure that there is continuity of supply, but for the Government, we always have to balance spending money, which is in short supply, on things that we are certain we will need, should we find ourselves leaving the European Union without a deal, against those many other calls on our EU transition fund that is about preparing Welsh businesses and Welsh public services for the long-term future the other side of Brexit.

I can sure the Member that we keep all possibilities under regular review, and if we were convinced that it was necessary to secure further storage facilities for the purposes that he's outlined, then we would give that absolutely serious consideration. We've not been convinced of the case so far, but that doesn't mean to say that we wouldn't continue to consider it if further and better information became available.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:50, 14 May 2019

Can I say, then, First Minister, I asked the Minister that is responsible to publish this study. You, as First Minister, are responsible for the Government as a whole, but I'm asking you again now: will you publish that study, because I think the public have a right to know? I can also tell you, First Minister, I'm in possession of a number of letters from companies within the food sector all claiming that the failure to invest in cold storage facilities will have serious adverse consequences now. The managing director of one leading Welsh food company expresses, and I quote, their concern with regard to a serious shortage of both chilled and frozen storage facilities within Wales. The supply chain director of another says it is imperative that we have more cold storage options in the local area to be able to continue to compete. Kepak, which employs 700 people at the St Merryn meat plant in Merthyr says this:

If there is no increase in storage capacity in Wales, we may have to consider transferring some production from Merthyr to a site in Cornwall, which could have a negative impact on employee numbers in Merthyr.

And, furthermore, the National Sheep Association has said that without long-term cold storage facilities for lamb, the effects of a 'no deal' Brexit could be catastrophic.

So, can I ask you, First Minister, given that you yourself have said that a 'no deal' Brexit could have a devastating impact on the food sector, given that hundreds of jobs are at stake now, the future of Welsh farming is at risk and the security of food supply in Wales may itself be jeopardised, why on earth won't the Welsh Government invest the £3 million to £4 million it's estimated that's needed to plug the gap in cold chain supply? And why are you putting your faith in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and companies over the border, rather than coming up with a Welsh solution to a Welsh problem that you have exacerbated through the usual dose of complacency, denial and inaction?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:52, 14 May 2019

It's hard to know, Llywydd, where to begin, where you have to try and pick the bones of a sensible question out of the normal hyperbole that the leader of Plaid Cymru cannot deny himself. So, there was a sensible question in the middle of everything that he wrapped it up in and here's a sensible answer for him: I've said to him already that I'm happy to review the report to see if it was intended for publication, and if it is, then I'm very happy to think of doing that. 

As far as cold storage is concerned, it is one of—it is one of—a whole range of things that we discuss with the industry, and which the industry says they would need in order to be able to survive the catastrophic impact of a 'no deal' Brexit. If this is the top priority for the industry, in the way that the Member attempts to suggest, then I'd be happy to hear it directly from the industry. And if that's what they say to us, then we will of course discuss that with them as part of the way that we go about the sober business of Government, which is to work alongside those people in Wales who would be affected by a 'no deal' Brexit, to hear from them about where they think the investment that we can make alongside them would best be put to use, and if cold storage turns out—from them, rather from him—to be their top priority, then we will certainly work with them on it.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:53, 14 May 2019

(Translated)

Leader of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, can you tell us how well your Government carries out due diligence in relation to supporting businesses?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Well, Llywydd, the Welsh Government supports hundreds of businesses across Wales every day. We carry out due diligence, of course, on applications for funds that come to us, and we continue to remain in close contact with those companies during the period that we offer support to them. Does that mean that nothing ever goes wrong? Well, of course it doesn't.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:54, 14 May 2019

Well, let me tell you how your Government undertakes due diligence. Since 2010, the Welsh Government has wasted millions and millions of pounds on bad loans and poor business decisions. Canolfan Cywain received £3.4 million, and what happened? It closed. Main Port Engineering received £650,000 and went into administration. First Minister, I'd like to look closer at one company in particular, 'ku-kd dot com'—or kukd.com. Now, the investigation into the awarding of a £1 million grant to kukd.com from the Welsh Government was announced in September 2016, yet almost three years later, we are still waiting for the report to be published into this issue. This isn't the first time we've questioned your Government's accountability and for being less transparent with us, First Minister. A long line of poorly managed projects have fallen far short of expectations and have dented the confidence of taxpayers. Let's not forget the further misjudgements by the Welsh Government: Pinewood studios, the Circuit of Wales project, the underselling of land connected with the regeneration investment fund for Wales, risky business investment in Kancoat, and irresponsible selling of Welsh timber by Natural Resources Wales. Now, given you claim that you undertake due diligence as a Government, and in the interests of transparency, will you now commit today to publishing the report into kukd.com as soon as possible, so that we in this Chamber can properly scrutinise the actions of your Government?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:56, 14 May 2019

Llywydd, unlike the Member and, presumably, his party, we on these benches believe in investing in businesses here in Wales. I certainly don't apologise, for a single moment, for the fact that successive Welsh Governments have seen it as their duty to assist Welsh firms, to help them to grow to create work here in Wales, and if you're going to do that on an entirely risk-averse basis, where you're never willing to take a chance on a company that might turn out to be a really important part of our economic future here in Wales, then, of course, you can eliminate every possibility of something going wrong by never doing anything. If that's the policy of his party, he should tell us here. If he doesn't believe that we should ever be prepared to invest in a business that may, in the end, not turn out to do everything that both it says to us, our expert panels who review every single one of these cases and the decisions that Ministers make, then people in the future will know that were his party ever to find itself in a position to make decisions here in Wales, then they wouldn't be a Government prepared to do those things that allow businesses here in Wales to prosper.

The Member said to me that there was a lack of transparency and then proceeded to reel off a list of things that he could only possibly know as a result of information that the Welsh Government itself had placed in the public domain. My colleague Ken Skates says that he has no difficulty in publishing the report to which the Member referred, so there will be another report that he will be able to read, and we look forward to his views on transparency when another piece of information that is only available because this Government is prepared to make it available falls into his hands.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:58, 14 May 2019

Well, this is about transparency and accountability, First Minister. We have waited three years for this report. Why on earth hasn't this report been published until now? So, I take it from the answer you've just given me that he will be publishing this report in due course, but that wasn't clear from your answer. Now, there are still—[Interruption.] There are still serious questions about the relationship between the Welsh Labour Party, former Welsh Government Ministers and kukd.com. Now, in an article by WalesOnline published on 4 November 2015, the then economy Minister wrote that, and I quote,

'Welsh Government support for this project has ensured another business founded by Mr Hussein will be headquartered in Wales.'

However, on 17 November 2015, Welsh Government officials met with kukd.com to discuss their ongoing business difficulties and falling job creation. Then, 10 days after this meeting, kukd.com were a principal sponsor of a Welsh Labour gala dinner at which senior management of kukd.com and senior Government Ministers were present. I put it to you, First Minister: transparency and accountability and openness should be at the heart of politics and decision making in Wales. Given that the report into kukd.com has not yet been published—but I welcome the fact that I think you said in your answer perhaps you will be publishing it—can you confirm that the investigation into this company will be looking at whether or not due diligence was thoroughly undertaken and what will you and your Government be learning so that taxpayers' money is spent wisely in the future?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:00, 14 May 2019

Well, I've—. I said in my last answer, Llywydd, that, once the report is cleared for publication, it will be published and the Member will be able to read it and see everything that is covered in it. I sat in a meeting of the UK Cabinet in which the £30 million that has had to be paid to Eurotunnel in compensation for decisions that his party has made in Westminster, in addition to the contracts that have now been cancelled by his Government—£80 million; £80 million thrown away on that one issue. I don't need to listen to holier-than-thou speeches from the leader of the opposition, because if I wanted to look for where money is thrown away by public authorities, I need look no further than his party and its handling of that one single matter. There is a record number, Llywydd, of businesses now headquartered in Wales, and that wouldn't be the case if it were not for the policies that this Government pursues of assisting Welsh businesses, in investing in them where there is a strong case for doing so. And, where those investments don't turn out to deliver what we had all hoped and had been advised was most likely to be received from them, then of course—of course—we are committed to learning the lessons from those experiences, and that's why the Member was able to identify those instances that he started talking about this afternoon.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 2:01, 14 May 2019

(Translated)

Leader of the UKIP group, Gareth Bennett.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP

Diolch, Llywydd—[Interruption.] 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Gareth Bennett, continue and ignore the rest of the Chamber.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 2:02, 14 May 2019

First Minister, sometimes I return to subjects here in the Chamber that I have enquired about in the past, because it appears that nothing is happening. We seem to have reached this stage with Cardiff Central railway station. This is a major transport hub, of course, not just for people in Cardiff but for people throughout Wales, and users will know that there is a lack of room at the station, particularly when there are major events in Cardiff, when people tend to get crammed together in the station like tinned sardines. The Welsh public have been promised an upgrade of the central train station for some time. When do you think we are likely to get it?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Well, Llywydd, the Member is right to point to the fact that Cardiff railway station is a very busy transport location; 40 per cent of all rail journeys in Wales begin or end at Cardiff station. That gives you an idea of just how important it is to people in Cardiff but also the across the whole of Wales. Now, investment in Cardiff station is a matter not for the Welsh Government but for the UK Government. We've referred already this afternoon to Mr Grayling and his outstanding success as a Minister. On the long list of things that he has failed to attend to is the case for upgrading Cardiff Central railway station. Now, we have made the case time and again to him to persuade the UK Government to give Wales a fair share of the investment in the railways that we would get if you simply gave us the share that our railway network represents of the UK network as a whole. We get nothing like a fair share. We don't have the voice that we need in London speaking up for Wales to guarantee that we would get it, and so we have to work even harder to persuade the transport Minister in the UK Government not to add this to his lengthy list of failings.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 2:04, 14 May 2019

Thank you for your engagement with the question and thank you for your engagement with many of the questions that I've asked you. Now, unfortunately, I'm not here to scrutinise Chris Grayling and the UK Government; I'm here to scrutinise you and your Government. You have made this case before of the lack of investment, which—I appreciate the point that you're making. Unfortunately, it doesn't help users of the railway station, who are still waiting for some kind of development work to begin. Now, a wider reflection on how your Welsh Government operates might take in the fact that every week you or your fellow Ministers tell us that they're in some kind of funding dispute with the UK Government. We had the absurdity recently of Welsh residents not being let in for treatment at a hospital just across the border in Chester because of this. The whole point of having a Welsh Government here at the Assembly is supposed to be that things work better for the people of Wales. To the neutral observer, it might appear that all that happens in reality is that you and your Ministers run an operation that does not benefit the people of Wales at all, because all that you do is waste time blaming your lack of action on funding decisions taken at Westminster and Whitehall. First Minister, don’t the people of Wales deserve something a bit better from you?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:05, 14 May 2019

Well, Llywydd, I don’t see how the Member makes any claim at all to be what he refers to as a 'neutral observer'. I hope that his remarks on Cardiff railway station are an indication that he will join us in calling for the devolution of those responsibilities, so that we could discharge them directly here in Wales. I’m not sure if that is his party’s policy, but, if it were, I’d be very glad to know it.

And, where we are able to act, as in the bus station alongside the railway station in Cardiff, then it is the Welsh Government that has acted to ensure that the funding is available and the plan is in place and that the bus station will be developed in a way that, provided we get the investment from the UK Government, that will turn into the transport hub that we have always wanted to see, with an interchange between different forms of public transport right here in the centre of our city.

As far as the point that he ended with, about the Countess of Chester, let’s be clear: that was a decision of the Countess of Chester—a unilateral decision by that provider, which we have now had to spend weeks unravelling and putting back together again the plan that they had shoved off the wall. Now, you will have seen the statement that the health Minister has put out, explaining how, by taking the actions we have taken, we now have an agreement through the Department of Health that will make sure that the Countess of Chester goes on treating Welsh patients. But the decision not to treat Welsh patients was unilaterally and, as I would say, irresponsibly made by them, and certainly not by us.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 2:07, 14 May 2019

(Translated)

Question 3 [OAQ53866] is withdrawn. Question 4—Mandy Jones.