We now move to the debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee report on 'The Future Development of Transport for Wales' and I call on the Chair of the committee to move that motion. Russell George.

Motion NDM7108 Russell George

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the report of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee on its Inquiry: The Future Development of Transport for Wales - which was laid in the Table Office on 2 May 2019.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I would like to associate my own comments with the comments of the Deputy Minister. I think we're all saddened by the tragic incident involving rail workers this morning, but I'm sure that all Members here would want to pass on our thoughts and condolences to the families who are involved.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I move the motion in my name. After reporting on the rail franchise and south Wales metro in June 2017, it was a natural next step for the committee to take a closer look at Transport for Wales’s governance arrangements. Back in 2017, we had at that time said that while arrangements were appropriate at that time, they would need to change in the future. So, in this inquiry, we looked at how other transport delivery bodies worked and listened to the concerns of Welsh stakeholders. Our report highlights the unusual way that Transport for Wales was set up—as a wholly owned subsidiary of Welsh Government—and that this decision has created some confusion for stakeholders.

I'll give you an example of this. Shortly after we started our inquiry, the Welsh Government launched a consultation on legislative proposals for public transport. But it was Transport for Wales that engaged directly with stakeholders on developing the White Paper, not the Welsh Government. So the lines of responsibility for policy development and for operational delivery have seemed blurred, and after the confusion, I think there is some confusion there, and I don't think that that is at all surprising. The Welsh Government tells us that Transport for Wales is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Welsh Ministers, but at the same time that there is a distinct separation between the Welsh Government and TfW, allowing TfW to make independent operational decisions. It is notable that in front of us today, we have a response from the Welsh Government to some of our recommendations, and a separate response from TfW to others.

This particular report focused on the governance of Transport for Wales itself, not the performance of TfW rail services. Despite some difficulties and some teething problems with autumn rail disruption, which the committee has reported on separately, many transport stakeholders have seemed encouraged by Transport for Wales's initial engagement with them on a one-to-one basis, which I think is positive. However, the need for much better transparency and engagement, and clearer lines of accountability, were key recommendations. While transport stakeholders were developing a better understanding of Transport for Wales through direct contact with them, it was not being communicated clearly enough to the public.

There is, I think, much to welcome in Transport for Wales's response to the report, such as the commitment to creating an advisory panel to give customers, stakeholders and interested groups the opportunity to advise TfW on its activities. TfW also says it will publish a high-level summary of its communications plan for 2019-20, but it would be helpful to know when we could expect to see that plan.

We also made a number of recommendations to the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales about publishing an organisational chart; being clearer about the role played by consultants; ensuring its board is representative and diverse; publishing a complete register of interests of its board members and directors; and demonstrating a strong and open partnership approach to engagement with trade unions. The committee was concerned by evidence from two trade unions about a lack of partnership working. TfW’s chief executive made a commitment to listen to the unions' concerns, and the response to recommendation 11 describes TfW’s

'keenness to work with all partners and formalise any agreements as soon as possible.' 

This is not, of course, the same as saying that agreements are in place. So, I think further progress is needed in that regard.

Transport for Wales's response to recommendation 3, unfortunately I think, misses the point. The committee asked to see an organisational chart published for the whole organisation, not just the board. Transport for Wales says publishing details of its senior team is in line with practice elsewhere, including Transport for London. But Transport for London's transparency strategy extends far beyond publishing board members' biographies. It also publishes a much more substantial organisational chart with details of staff roles and salary bands for senior staff, as well as Transport for London's board members. Transport for Wales's proposals to publish details of contracts of over £25,000 on a quarterly basis may help a bit, I think, to understand the role of consultants, but in light of concerns about the significant use of consultants, the response I don't think goes far enough.

We do welcome the gender balance on TfW’s board and the Minister’s commitment to ensuring that the next chair of TfW will be subject to a pre-appointment hearing with the committee. The recommendation is, of course, no reflection on the suitability of the current chair, but it does recognise the committee’s important scrutiny role.

I very much look forward to hearing the views of colleagues this afternoon, and also, of course, the Deputy Minister's response. And, of course, I commend our report to the Assembly.

I welcome this debate, because I think that there was very little opportunity given to stakeholders to have any input into the process at the time of the procurement, and that was for good commercial reasons, but it did prevent local stakeholders, who are obviously mainly people who travel by public transport, from giving their views on exactly what was needed. And so I'm hopeful that we will hear from the Minister about how there is going to be now much more public engagement in what people who are affected by the current state of transport—what they want from this process. In particular, obviously, the people I represent in Cardiff Central are particularly keen to see a joined-up transport system that marries up the rail system with the bus system, with integrated ticketing systems that will enable it to be possible to transfer from one mode of transport to another; obviously, good bicycle racks and good walking routes to get to railway stations, which obviously are not going to be at the end of every street, and therefore people need a mode of transport to actually get to the railway station. So, I think it's very useful to see the report from the committee, but I think there's a lot more that we need to do to ensure that ordinary passengers can have their say on the type of transport system that they want to see. 

Thank you to the Chair for leading on this agenda. I found this piece of work very interesting, for us to try and shape the future of Transport for Wales, considering it's such a youthful organisation. And while we did find that there had been some teething problems—notably in our other report with regard to the autumn dysfunction—we know that time will tell how engaged and how positive a relationship Transport for Wales can develop, not only with us but with the wider public. So, I think that's all to be seen for the future. 

I think what's integral to us as politicians is to understand exactly what Transport for Wales and its role will be. There was some—I don't want to use the words 'dispute' or 'confusion' about who was ultimately responsible. When I asked Ken Skates, 'Is it you?', he said 'Yes'; in previous sessions, it may not have been as clear, when we were probing Transport for Wales as to who was ultimately responsible for any failings or for any misgivings in the system. So, whatever happens in terms of the structure, we have to know that the Government will be ultimately responsible for what happens, or if it's not, that those delineations of power and abdication of power is clear for all to see, so that we know and the public knows, more importantly, that if something goes wrong, if they want to complain, if they want to get compensation, they know exactly where to go. And, as yet, I'm not sure that we know what the answer is. 

For example, we've got the joint transport authorities. Are we going to have a regional system, or are we going to have a national system, or are we going to have both? In my gut, and I'm not speaking on behalf of everybody yet, because we've yet to discuss it as a party, I would say that, actually, do we need to have two different systems? Can we not have one system that people will be able to go to and that's clear? The White Paper may be able to give us some more answers on that. 

I did find it a bit ironic and a bit sad to see that the trade unions had to raise with us the fact that some of the trade unions were not being engaged at all by Transport for Wales, and that we had to raise it with them in these committee sessions to say to them, 'Look, if you are going to be TUPE-ing staff over, if you are going to be transferring people to Transport for Wales from other bodies, then they need to be clear about what's happening and they also have to have a role on that board.' I'm glad to see, following on from those public concerns, that Transport for Wales has now engaged with all the trade unions. I think it was PCS that had the biggest concern at the time, but they are now part of that conversation. But it shouldn't be an afterthought; they should be there from the start as part of the social partnership, and we shouldn't be seeing that happening again here in Wales. 

Ultimately, I think any governance system has to be robust enough to be assured that what's being delivered for the public is sufficient and strong. And I think that's where, potentially, things need to improve. In our report, we talk about Transport for Wales being more reactive rather than proactive: people didn't know about what was happening, they didn't know who was running the service anymore, they couldn't find information on the website and they didn't know about plans for integrated ticketing. So, what I would say is that Transport for Wales needs to have a wide-scale Wales campaign to engage with the public about what they want to see happening and how. If Transport for Wales is going to go into buses and to other modes of transport, then how can the public be used as part of that conversation, and not just be told what is going to happen? That's now what they want to see happening in all of this.

One other comment I think we did pick up on in this inquiry, which, perhaps, the Deputy Minister will respond to, was the lack of expertise from those in the rail industry on the board. I appreciate you can't just have rail geeks and rail anoraks on the board—it can't just be those people, as passionate as they are—it has to be inclusive of all society. But if you don't have any of them with those skills, then there is a bit of a problem, is there not? I appreciate that specialism because I'm not a rail specialist—I wouldn't be able to do that work—so please can we see how they can be involved, and how we can use the agenda of climate change that we're all talking about at the moment to focus Transport for Wales's work on looking at how they can integrate different modes of transport into their work, but also encourage people out of their cars. 

I'd like to thank the committee team for all the hard work they've done in supporting this work, but I think this is the beginning of our scrutiny of Transport for Wales, and certainly not the end. 

I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak this afternoon on the future development of Transport for Wales. The purpose of this report is to make sure Transport for Wales is fit for purpose. To that end, the committee makes 13 recommendations. It is pleasing to note that the Welsh Government has accepted all 13 recommendations, and Transport for Wales itself has welcomed the report. 

I would like to confine my remarks today to some of the important key principles highlighted by the committee. The first concerns are: transparency and clarity in operations, role and governance. This emerged as a key issue during the inquiry, with a variety of views being expressed. Concerns were expressed that, at present, there is no clarity over where the functions of Transport for Wales end and those of Welsh Government begin. Welsh Government must clearly define the remit of TfW to the satisfaction of shareholders and customers. I look forward to hearing from the Minister how he intends to achieve this in his reply.

As the report says,

'transport is first and foremost about the needs of the user…TfW must demonstrate a stronger commitment to meeting customer needs and improving passenger experience'.

Although the committee recognised that TfW expressed willingness to be open, concerns were raised that the availability of information for the public had been slow to appear and incomplete. The impression given was that TfW had been providing information and engaging with stakeholders on a reactive rather than proactive basis, which I think Bethan has already mentioned. As a relatively new organisation, these problems are not surprising. TfW must move quickly to set up a formal advisory group to engage with stakeholder bodies and improve public awareness about its responsibilities and functions. A wide range of mechanisms to consult with stakeholders and passengers would demonstrate a stronger commitment to meeting customers' needs and improving passengers' experience.    

Will you take an intervention? 

Yes, go on. 

Can I just ask: has the Conservative Party got a position now on joint transport authorities? 

Let me finish my speech and I'll give you the answer in a minute. 

A strategic transport executive body would co-ordinate the provision of a seamless travel experience for users. This would provide a back-office function for integrated ticketing across all modes of transport, and by all preferred payment methods. Integrated ticketing and a smart travel option will make a huge difference to passengers in Wales, and greatly improve their experience. This is even more important when the passengers are elderly, disabled or need to use wheelchairs.

As my party's shadow Minister for skills, I am particularly interested—now, this is my answer to Hefin David—in opportunities offered by the development of TfW to build and retain skill and capacity in transport expertise in Wales. This includes generating apprenticeships. It was noted that both Transport for Greater Manchester and the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority had a strong focus on local procurement and creating a legacy for jobs and training. The committee welcomed the Minister's aim of creating a specialist organisation that can help and develop transport-related skills across the Welsh public sector. The development of TfW must lead to a tangible increase in transport-related skills and the generation of apprenticeships. We must also follow the lead of Manchester and Liverpool and align procurement practice to supporting a legacy of skills and training in Wales.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I believe that the recommendations in this report will ensure that Transport for Wales continues its development as an organisation that is fit for purpose and that serves well the people of Wales. Thank you.

I'd like to thank all the staff on the committee for their support in what has been a really useful inquiry. In rising to speak today, I'd like to begin by noting the important centenaries being celebrated this year around the development of transport policy in the UK. When I was a teacher, I always used to tell my students that history had relevance in the modern world, and I think these examples bear fruit with that.

In 1819, we saw the opening of the Mansfield and Pinxton railway. Currently celebrating its two-hundredth anniversary, this is the UK’s oldest continuously running commercial railway. And, importantly, in light of remarks that I'll make later and that other Members have already made, that line was linked to economic development, and it was part of a radical attempt to integrate transport infrastructure, in that case rail and canal.

Stepping forward in time 100 years, May 1919 saw the appointment of the first ever Minister of transport in Westminster. Eric Geddes was appointed by Lloyd George to oversee the new department, where a key responsibility was rail, and the future shape of the network was a key debate, again something that will strike a chord with us today. So, it's interesting to note that the kind of priorities that we were looking at as a nation 100 years ago, 200 years ago, still resonate with us today.

Step forward another 100 years, and here we have the report from the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee that we're considering today. And it may be a stretch, I'm afraid, Chair, to think that policy makers will be noting its centenary in 100 years' time, but, despite that, I think that there are key messages in all these areas—the economy, integration and the network shape, which I will take some time to explore.

I'd like to start with recommendation 13. I think that kind of focus on procurement, skills and training could provide a really important economic boost. It’s a real opportunity for people living in areas like mine to get good-quality work. It’s a real opportunity for small and medium-sized enterprises to get good-quality contracts. And as the evidence that we took from Manchester and Liverpool told us, supporting employment and apprenticeships must be at the heart of any regional or national model of working. With that in mind, it’s good to see the range of approaches outlined in the response from Transport for Wales to this recommendation.

Turning briefly to recommendation 11, for Transport for Wales to demonstrate its commitment to its workforce and their welfare, it is important that it enters into a social partnership agreement with relevant trade unions. I know that the TfW website contains a commitment to getting a union rep on its board. So, it would be good to see progress on this point.

For the bulk of my contribution, I'd like to focus on recommendations 5 to 8. All of them relate to the broader points of integration and network that I mentioned in my opening remarks. All have an important role in ensuring that TfW delivers on the transformative shift that we wish to see from it. That being the case, it's good that all of those recommendations have been accepted by the Welsh Government and to read the positive reply from TfW, where appropriate.

To achieve these aims, in my opinion, though, bus services are absolutely crucial, and to realise truly the vision of the south Wales metro as a truly integrated transport system, we must ensure healthy arterial routes—arterial routes that, via bus services or perhaps active travel links, link what are often the poorest, most isolated communities to the main transport thoroughfares.

From my constituency postbag, particularly in relation to those bus services, we still have a long, long way to go to fulfil this and to realise the fullest ambition of the south Wales metro. To do that would accord with the well-being goals and offer a real intervention around promoting social justice, and, of course, a joined-up service would require joined-up, integrated ticketing, and I'd like to see it being one that doesn’t penalise the infrequent traveller. One of my local branches of Active Wales have, in a similar vein, made a plea that concessionary bus travel be extended to rail services and I would like to see some further work around this.

During our inquiry, several of our witnesses gave compelling evidence also around a possible role for TfW in terms of the highway network, and I believe this would be a really positive opportunity to replace what I personally feel is a less than responsive trunk road agency. My constituency was badly affected by flooding on part of the A465 near Rhigos earlier this year, and the actions of the South Wales Trunk Road Agency were problematic. They used inaccurate signage, unable to find pumping equipment that the local authority could rapidly source. Their bungling caused frustration to commuters and local residents, making a bad situation worse. I've had also recurring problems around this with SWTRA for the past three years in terms of signage around road closures, failure to repair potholes, traffic light timings, and dangerously poor visibility on key junctions due to a lack of grass cutting. In all cases, these issues, which have caused delays and impacts on road user safety, have eventually been sorted, but only after personal lobbying from myself or other Assembly Members. So, moving forward, a greater role for Transport for Wales, with clear lines of accountability, could only be an improvement.

First, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I also extend my and my party's deepest sympathy to the families and friends of the two workmen killed on the Cardiff to Swansea line this morning?

In its 'Prosperity for All' economic plan, the Welsh Government stressed the importance of connectivity in Wales as essential to economic success. Transport for Wales will have a key role to play in the delivery of the infrastructure and transport schedule side of this connectivity. I wish to acknowledge the considerable amount of work the committee undertook to produce this report. It is noticeable that all the recommendations contained in the report have been accepted by the Welsh Government. I believe this indicates the maturity of the committee, which now must be viewed as a critical friend, not just a committee of scrutiny.

I know from my time on the committee that there was cross-party consensus to improve the economic and social performance of Wales. One matter of concern is in recommendation 5. This says that:

'It is difficult to recommend what form the transport body should take until there is clarity about its functions.'

I simply make the note that perhaps it should have been the other way around, whereby you decide its functions and then create the model you need to fulfil those functions. It certainly appears that there is consensus between the Welsh Government, Transport for Wales, and the EIS committee to ensure that Transport for Wales will be competent to fulfil the role of an overarching body that will be able to co-ordinate all the transport network and give direction, which may have been lacking in the past.

There is no doubt that the Welsh Government is fully committed to creating the very best transport infrastructure for Wales, but I say delivery, delivery, and, again, delivery will be the ultimate arbiter as to whether the Government's goals are achieved. So, we must not allow Transport for Wales little leeway on this aspect.

It is noteworthy that Transport for Wales are in the process of using passenger time lost, PTL, as its new performance tool—the first to use it in the UK. Whilst this will enhance data feedback, it is the implementation of corrective actions that will be the true test of Transport for Wales's ability to improve on passenger expectations. To summarise, Llywydd: 600 new jobs, 30 apprenticeships each year, new trains on order, planning and detailed design going ahead for the metro project, and work already in progress on improving stations—the future certainly looks bright for the travelling public in Wales, and I feel confident that continued scrutiny will ensure that all promises and obligations are met, and, hopefully, in keeping with our trains, on time.

I'd like to associate myself with the remarks about the tragedy at Margam that the Minister mentioned and has been mentioned by others.

According to the Welsh Government's response to the recommendations, the long-term aim of Transport for Wales is

'to deliver a public transport system that aims to give everyone easier access to bus, train and active travel for everyday journeys.'

The Chamber will know that I've made much complaint about the Government's—probably not the Government, actually, the approach to house building that has taken place in my constituency, and particularly in the south end, leaving the Government often with no choice but to allow that building to go ahead because of demand. But those houses are being built in areas in which the transport connections are very poor. And—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

Surely it's the role of the local authority to decide whether or not a particular housing development is sustainable or not.

Yes, and the local authority turns it down on those very grounds, it goes to appeal and the Planning Inspectorate overturn it on appeal, and then the Minister approves the appeal because the Minister is concerned that, if she doesn't approve it on appeal, it will be subject to judicial review and the planning inspector's view will hold sway in those circumstances. That's the difficulty that—. And I can give the precise example of Hendredenny. The problem with Hendredenny, where Redrow are going to build houses, is that it just does not connect very well, and the transport estimates suggest that more cars—that just six cars will be on the road a day as a result of the building of that estate. It's absurd, because the transport system does not provide for the volumes of traffic that will actually be created. Therefore, the future of Transport for Wales is massively important to reduce the need for that kind of housing estate and to connect better, and use the transport system to connect better transport across the Caerphilly constituency, particularly when building in areas of need.

It's encouraging that the Minister accepts recommendation 7, and recommendation 7 says that Transport for Wales

'should provide clear evidence of how it is complying with the principles of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.'

That's exactly what we are talking about when we talk about connectivity and new-build estates.

Recommendation 6 touches on something that is of great interest to the committee, which was, as I raised with Mohammad Asghar, the creation of joint transport authorities. I think there's a lack of clarity there as to whether we need a national joint transport authority, whether we need regional joint transport authorities, and the Government needs to be clear about this and what roles they will play. Will the joint transport authorities simply be repeating what the Transport for Wales body does? And we look forward to clarity on that in particular.

One thing I'd say in response to Bethan Jenkins, who raised concerns about responsibility for aspects of what Transport for Wales does: in my experience, James Price, as chief executive officer of Transport for Wales, has been very open in both answering questions in committee very honestly, and sometimes to possibly his reputational detriment in the fact that there's a lot of things he cannot do, but also then is more than happy to invite Assembly Members with an interest to see what they're doing, particularly in the Canton depot, and see what they're doing to bring new trains to the line.

We've now, on the Rhymney to Cardiff line, got loco-hauled services and additional carriages precisely as a result of Transport for Wales. The existence of Transport for Wales has led to additional carriages on the line that runs through my constituency, and that's really very, very important. That's a stop-gap measure while the new trains are being built, and that is something that I think is hugely relevant to the fact that we've got this franchise now, Wales owned and Wales run. And the changes in the future will be directly as a result of the franchise being overseen by Ministers in this Parliament.

Finally, with regard to ticketing, we need this seamless ticketing—Vikki Howells mentioned it—and the tracking of ticketing. I had an experience on the weekend: I took my children on a return journey from Hengoed to Aber. I went to Ffiliffest in Caerphilly castle and then went to Morgan Jones Park and the splash pad there—everyone is recommended to visit that, it's amazing—but I bought my ticket using my Transport for Wales app on my phone. So, I bought my ticket before I left the house. Nobody checked my ticket on the train. There must be technology that would enable the conductor on the train to know whether tickets have been purchased or not, making life easier for the conductor. The carriage was full, so the conductor simply wasn't able to get from one carriage to the other to check my ticket, but I had bought the ticket. But it would be very tempting—and probably my constituents won't thank me for this—to not buy a ticket; human nature. I think we need to have the technology that enables, without being intrusive, the conductor to know that tickets have been bought. I think that's an important consideration for the future.

The first thing I want to do also is to send my condolences to the families of those two men who just were killed today, and to concur with everything that was said earlier in terms of the way that we feel here today—that people going to work expect to come home from work.

I want to say that—and to carry on from where my colleague left off—I do welcome the Transport for Wales initiative, because it does mean, quite clearly, that there will be a focus on transport in its entirety in Wales, and that can only be a positive thing, and we're seeing positive things that have already arisen from that. But I want to focus firstly on going forward, particularly when we're looking at the climate emergency that's been declared. We're talking about cleaner air and we're also talking about decarbonisation in the transport system. So, there's a logic—and it's been accepted—that we must align the transport policies with all aspects of planning, and, again, Hefin just talked about that for his region. But we must talk about it for all areas—[Interruption.] Yes, okay, he hasn't got a region; I've got a region. But we must talk about it in the round, because transport—. If we're going to build—and I hope we are—many, many more houses for people, and if we're going to talk particularly about affordable housing within that, we must allow those individuals, whoever they are and wherever they live, an opportunity to travel by either public transport or to walk or to cycle.

Too often in the past—we've all seen it, and the now Deputy Minister has spoken about it previously as a backbencher—we've seen estates being built and there is absolutely no access or no consideration about the way that people are going to travel around those houses. The same can be said when we're building schools, hospitals, or anything else for that matter. Because, if we're going to get serious, we have to get serious at the start, in the pre-planning phase. I have every confidence that the Deputy Minister will have his eye very firmly on that agenda, and that's a good thing, but we need to be sure that it's happening on the ground. Do we need—when we're looking at a national plan, and a regional plan and a local plan, and, you know, are we having conversations with local authorities who'll be drawing up those plans locally, ensuring that the members who are on the planning committees fully understand what it is that they should be looking at, when they're deciding an application, in the round? Because, whilst we're here engaged in this, and we've done a committee inquiry into it, it doesn't necessarily mean that the people who will be asked to implement it on the ground will be as clear in their understanding as we might be. So, I suppose that's my real question to you. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport, Lee Waters?

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank the committee for the considered way that they undertook their inquiry and for their report? The role of Transport for Wales is evolving, and it's useful for the committee to do this work at this point in the cycle. I was keen, as a member of this committee when it was drafting its work programme, that the committee put its nose into this debate at a formative stage, and I am equally keen now, as a Minister, to receive the advice and thoughts of the committee about how that should be shaped. I think it's an important example of a committee performing its scrutiny and policy influencing role. That is one of the reasons why the Government has accepted all the recommendations, and has made clear in them the action we intend to take and the action we intend Transport for Wales to take. Our vision is for a world-class integrated low-carbon transport system in Wales to drive forward our economies and our communities to greater prosperity. TfW was established to support us in achieving that vision. The company has an important role in driving integration across the entire transport network, putting the passenger at the centre of everything it does.

As we begin our journey with TfW to change Wales's network, the complexity and volatility of the drivers for change that the Welsh Government needs to respond to are unprecedented. The advent of new and emerging technologies in the transport sector will transform how people use transport in their everyday lives over the next decade. I was launching this morning, Dirprwy Llywydd, a new fleet of buses for TrawsCymru and reflecting on my own experience, as a student in Aberystwyth making the hideous journey by bus through the winding lanes of mid Wales, with drivers going way too fast, and myself feeling very queasy after a night out the night before—of what the experience of using public transport was. And then, fast forward 25 years in the future, and the experience of using public transport will be dramatically different. The idea of an Uber for buses is now something that we are actively piloting through the Valleys and in Wrexham, which was simply unimaginable when I was a student. So, these new technologies, if managed correctly, are opportunities for Wales's economy to benefit from new, highly skilled jobs and for the passenger experience to change too, and to attract more people to shift modes of transport to help us respond to the climate change emergency.

The existing model, whereby Welsh Government has responsibility for strategy all the way through to project delivery and operations, leads to fragmentation of effort and of focus, inevitably shifting from the development of effective policy to dealing with the here and now of delivery. We've set out in the economic action plan our aspiration for TfW to exploit the opportunity it has as our transport integrator—to allow the company to take on a wider range of transport functions. In doing so, we will increase TfW's staffing capacity, capability and expertise to deliver the Welsh Government's policy goals, including some immediate steps towards transport integration: empowering TfW to deliver a public transport system that gives everyone easier access to bus, train and active travel for everyday journeys; creating a transport planning model for Wales, enabling improved decision making for transport and land-use planning; implementation of smart ticketing technology to create interoperability and use across modes; and co-ordinating information across transport modes to help inform route planning.

In the medium term, we have instructed officials to plan for the migration of the remaining transport delivery functions, such as highway improvements and operations, from the Welsh Government into TfW. Doing this will leave the Welsh Government free to focus on the policy challenges posed by decarbonisation, air quality, autonomous and electric vehicles and so on to develop a multiterm legislative programme and policy framework that will help us realise the ambitions we have for TfW. As part of the bus reform work, we are proposing the joint transport authority approach, whereby local authorities in the regions of Wales work together to provide local and regional transport outcomes. I'd like to respond to Hefin David's challenge—not the bit where he revealed his penchant for fare dodging, but the other bit—where he said there was a lack of clarity on whether TfW should be a national transport planning body or a regional one. This is the debate that we want to have, and I'd invite Members to input this into local authorities too.

Our current thinking—and this is a genuine invitation to help us shape it—working closely with local authorities, and the work that the Minister for Local Government and Housing is doing on creating a regional footprint for collaboration, is that transport should be very much part of that, not as a stand-alone development, but completely integrated into the regional collaboration bodies that the Minister is creating. Just as, at the moment, the Welsh Government can commission Transport for Wales to do a piece of work for us, it's entirely possible, in keeping with what we want to see, that local authorities could equally commission them to do a piece of work for them, because there simply isn't the capacity and the expertise in every local authority, as there once was, to be able to do this. So, there's no reason why different layers of government can't exercise that executive and democratic decision making, and TfW can sit alongside them as partners to deliver the expertise. That way, as a small, smart nation, we can make the most of our expertise, and do that in a collaborative way.

That's our plan. That's what we're working towards, and we'd welcome some challenge on that if Members think that a different direction would be better. So, I do hope there is some clarity, to answer Hefin David's point on our direction of travel. As an organisation solely focused on the delivery of transport solutions, TfW can build a highly skilled transport delivery workforce with emphasis on technical, management and leadership skills that will create better value and outcomes for people, places and for Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Can I now call Russell George to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Transport for Wales and the Minister stated their commitment to openness and transparency, but I would just say that their record on this is imperfect. There have been gaps in time frames covered by Transport for Wales's remit letter, and we've still not seen the long-awaited business case for its future governance.

Now, Hefin David spoke at some length about JTAs. As a committee, we recognise that there is an ongoing consultation with local government and others about the proposed joint transport authorities, which of course may have a bearing on how Transport for Wales operates in the future. So, the Minister's commitment to publish Transport for Wales's business case and the future remit during the consultation on JTA proposals was welcome, I should say. It is very important, I think, that the Minister soon makes his intention clear so that everyone can understand how JTAs will fit into the future Welsh Government's vision for an integrated transport network.

Am I right in thinking that the evidence we received said that a national JTA and regional JTAs would be a step too far, and would be duplicating themselves?

I think you are. I was just going to come on to talk perhaps a little bit about that as well following your contribution.

From the evidence that was gathered—. I'll come back to JTAs. From the evidence we gathered, I don't think we're able to conclude that one specific governance model would be a perfect fit for Wales, but I think a pick and mix of best practice should be applied. We heard evidence from transport expert Professor Iain Docherty, who told us that the number of transport bodies should be kept to the minimum necessary and no more.

Local government representatives have told us that they want to see tight co-ordination mechanisms for making important transport decisions in Wales. Although they welcome the regional collaboration, they question the need for a national JTA. Some stakeholders also see Transport for Wales as having that national co-ordination role, although of course it's a limited company owned by the Government, not a transport authority with statutory powers. So the committee therefore looks forward to seeing the detail of proposals for JTAs and Transport for Wales's future role to understand how they're going to fit together.

Jenny Rathbone and Vikki Howells and Hefin also commented on integrated ticketing in their contributions. Now, the remit given to Transport for Wales for land use planning and active travel will be important for developing an integrated network, because our inquiry showed the importance of a governance model that works across policy areas, like health, education and planning. Passenger journeys don't recognise, of course, those borders, and the needs of passengers, I think, must always come first.

We want to see evidence as well that Transport for Wales's work on integrated ticketing and communications and engagement with passengers is bearing fruit. We want to see that happening. I do just note the response to recommendation 8 to our inquiry, which points to its website for details on its obligations on integrated ticketing, but I think much more detail needs to come forward in that regard. I also thank Vikki as well for her contribution—Vikki Howells—who gave us a bit of a history lesson. I learnt some things today that I hadn't previously. I wouldn't expect anything different from a former teacher. 

Thank you to Bethan Sayed, who joined our committee just as we were starting this piece of work. I'd echo Bethan's final comments that as a committee we're going to continue to hold scrutiny on Transport for Wales. I also echo Hefin's comments, in that I think that Transport for Wales appreciate our scrutiny and challenge and they've always been very open to coming to committee and engaging with us as Members as well. 

I thank Oscar Asghar, who wasn't on the committee but is a new member of committee after joining our committee more recently. I'm grateful for his comments as well. And I thank Joyce Watson for her contribution, and David Rowlands for his contribution. David was a member of the committee at the time, but is no longer a member of the committee, so as I said in the committee—he wasn't there to hear this—but I thanked David for his contribution on the committee during his time with us. 

We're always grateful for those who give evidence to our inquiry and certainly appreciate the input from our transport stakeholders. We thank also—I think Vikki Howells mentioned it—our staff on the committee and the integrated team for their support as well. Our overriding message is that passengers deserve the best and they must come at the centre of everything that Transport for Wales does from now on. 

Thank you very much. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.