Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:42 pm on 9 July 2019.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:42, 9 July 2019

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the opposition, Paul Davies. 

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, will you provide an update on the delivery of the Wales and borders rail franchise? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

The Wales and borders franchise continues to be delivered in line with the plans that were already agreed—a most ambitious plan for improving rail services here in Wales. Members will be aware of actions that have already been taken to improve those services. There are many more that will follow over the lifetime of the franchise. 

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

First Minister, I received an e-mail last week, and I'm sure that sounds familiar from a leader of the opposition. I received an e-mail from Gill and Antosh, who run a bed-and-breakfast in my own constituency. They have received correspondence from two of their guests about their train journey from Newport to Haverfordwest. Now, the guests had a fantastic time walking our coastal path and thoroughly enjoyed our famous Pembrokeshire hospitality. However, despite booking seats, they described their train journey as being 'squeezed' and 'packed to the gunwales' with one of the guests, recently recovering from shingles, being wedged between the catering trolley, other passengers and the door. This was incredibly painful for her, so much so that she felt like cancelling the holiday as she felt she couldn't go on. 

Now, 75 per cent of the guests to this B&B are from overseas, and more than 60 per cent rely on public transport to get to Pembrokeshire. Is this the welcome to Wales that people should be receiving at a time when we should be boosting our tourist numbers? And is it right that guests to our country should be treated so badly? And what is your message—[Interruption.] I know the Labour Members don't want to hear the realities of our train services, but what is your message to Gill and Antosh? What is your message to Gill and Antosh and to the other tourist operators and businesses who rely on visitors coming to Wales?    

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:44, 9 July 2019

Well, Llywydd, I'm well used now to the irony-free way in which questions in this Assembly are put to me—questions from the leader of the opposition here about rail travel west of Cardiff from a party that cancelled rail electrification to west Wales. Has he no sense of shame at all in the questions that he asked me, when his party have been responsible for one of the greatest setbacks to rail travel in that part of Wales that we have experienced during the whole of this Assembly?  

What I say to the people who have e-mailed him is this: that this Government has a plan to expand capacity on that line and on other lines in Wales. That is the result of the neglect that was caused by the franchise that his Government signed with the previous operator. That's not going to happen in six months; it's going to happen over the lifetime of the franchise. There are ambitious plans in place so that there will be extra capacity west of Cardiff down to other parts of Wales. We wish we could bring it on faster, but there are constraints in terms of how quickly you can get trains delivered. There are funding constraints as a result of his Government's decisions as well. But, we will use the power of that franchise to bring about those improvements. When will his Government honour their promises to Wales? I don't see a single one, Llywydd. I don't see a single one of the announcements that the Secretary of State made when he was cancelling electrification and set out a string of business cases. I don't see a single one of them coming to fruition. When will we see that for people in the west of Wales?

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:46, 9 July 2019

The First Minister needs to calm down, I think. And just in case you don't understand, First Minister, I'm not here to defend the UK Government; I'm here to hold your Government to account and make sure you are delivering—[Interruption.]

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Too much excitement. We can't hear what the leader of the opposition is saying. In particular, the First Minister can't hear what he's saying.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

I'm here to hold your Government to account, to make sure you are delivering for the people of Wales. However, too often in this Chamber, we keep highlighting your Government's failures. Now, with the disruption of last autumn and the ongoing failures, public confidence in the ability of the new franchise to deliver is low. Only 72 per cent of commuters were satisfied when asked about the overall journey satisfaction in the latest national rail survey.

This is not good, First Minister, given that we now see the reintroduction of a train on the Rhymney valley line that was last used in Wales in 2005, having previously been in service since the 1960s. Transport for Wales decided to promote this by claiming that a popular train was back with smiles. First Minister, this is not a smiling or laughing matter. Commuters are frustrated and fed up with a lack of action and waiting for the new improved service to come along. What is your Government doing to ensure that the bodies responsible for the delivery of the new franchise have the technical, managerial and financial support necessary to ensure that they are able to help deliver a new world-class rail service here in Wales?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:48, 9 July 2019

Well, Llywydd, it's good to know that the leader of the opposition has given up trying to defend the indefensible. That will save us some time on the floor of the Assembly, no doubt.

The Welsh Government works with the powers that we have and the funding that we have. We wish we had more powers, we wish we had more funding to go with it, because then we would be able to make a better job of public transport here in Wales. Good to know when his Government finally decides to transfer the Valleys lines is going to be agreed, after months of prevarication on that issue too. We use everything; all the powers we have, Llywydd, we use to improve services for passengers, to build up capacity, to deliver the franchise that we have agreed—one of the most ambitious franchises agreed anywhere in the United Kingdom. When the leader of the opposition reports to me that public satisfaction in his performance is 72 per cent, I will be inclined to listen to his criticisms of others who are in the same position.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:49, 9 July 2019

(Translated)

Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, earlier this year, Machynlleth town council, seat of the first Welsh Parliament, of course, became the first council in Wales to declare a climate emergency, and a few months later, this Parliament and your Government followed suit. Two months ago, Machynlleth town council became the first council in Wales to declare its support for independence. I think you can see where I'm going with this one. After your comments last week berating colonialism and your statement yesterday that your support for the union was not unconditional, are you now officially indy-curious?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Llywydd, let me make clear to people in Wales what the choice in this Chamber is. On the one hand, you have a party that is a barely reformed party that is scarcely reconciled to devolution, and that's what I meant when I described the Prime Minister's speech in Edinburgh as 'colonial' in nature. If she believes that the way in which to improve the union is to strengthen the offices of Secretaries of State and to fly the union jack more vigorously in Wales, then I'm afraid that's not what I see the United Kingdom being in future.

Here, in this party, we are a devolutionist party. We firmly believe that decisions that are made on the future of services that are pertinent to Wales should be made only by people who live in Wales. But we believe in a successful United Kingdom as well. Plaid Cymru stand unambiguously for independence. That's what they will be offering the people of Wales in any election, an ambition and a determination to take Wales out of the United Kingdom, and everything they do and everything they say, as we saw yesterday, is seen through that lens. I'm very happy that that is the case, because I do not think for a moment that the people of Wales are in that position, and I certainly am not.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:51, 9 July 2019

So, if I can summarise your answer, we're unambiguously in favour of independence, you're ambiguously in favour of it. It's a definite maybe from the First Minister.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

How would you summarise what I said in that way?

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

But one policy area—[Interruption.] One policy area in which there has been some—[Interruption.]

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Okay. Allow the leader of Plaid Cymru to be heard, please. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

I think I've touched a nerve here maybe. One policy area in which there has been evolution is Brexit. Today, the Labour Party's put out a statement confirming it would campaign for remain in the event of a referendum called by a Tory Prime Minister, but it leaves open the question as to whether it would do the same if Labour were in Government. Do you support that position, or are you able to confirm today that if a Labour Government put a renegotiated deal to the people, you, the Labour Party in Wales and your Government, would still campaign for remain whatever the UK Labour Party decided? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:52, 9 July 2019

Llywydd, the Welsh Labour Party is in favour of Wales remaining in the United Kingdom—there's no ambiguity about that—and we are in favour of Wales remaining in the European Union. I have said before, I say it again: if there is an opportunity for people in Wales to vote again on whether or not we should remain or leave the European Union, we will be campaigning to remain. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

I think that's the second question I haven't had a clear answer for, but it does beg the question if you are claiming to be an out-and-out remain party why you are the only one that hasn't stood down to maximise the chances of defeating a pro-Brexit party in Brecon and Radnor. [Interruption.] 

Could I finally turn to some news that has broken in the last few hours, which is the interim administration order against the company involved in the Afan Valley Adventure Resort? The judge in that case has today said of the company, Northern Powerhouse Developments, that theirs was

'a thoroughly dishonest business model and a shameful abuse of the privileges of limited liability trading.'

I will be writing to the Serious Fraud Office today to ask them to initiate an immediate inquiry. But in the meantime, can the First Minister say, given what we've heard from the judge, why the Welsh Government expressed enthusiastic support for the company and its project on several occasions, including the economy Minister appearing in its promotional videos?  

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:54, 9 July 2019

Llywydd, I'm keen to assist the leader of Plaid Cymru, so I'll tell him again what I've said to him twice now in the hope that he has a chance to catch up. First of all, the Labour Party in Wales unambiguously believes that the future of Wales is best secured through continued membership of the United Kingdom. We are unambiguously in that position, just as you are unambiguously in favour of taking Wales out of the United Kingdom. We are unambiguously in favour of Wales remaining in the European Union, and we will campaign to do that if we ever have the opportunity, just as we say so in Brecon and Radnor, where we put up a candidate because there are Labour voters and Labour members in Brecon and Radnor who deserve the opportunity to vote for a candidate who represents those views. I understand that he has taken a different course of action and that those people who would otherwise have voted Plaid Cymru will now not have an opportunity to vote for the Party of Wales—an astonishing decision, it seems to me, for the so-called Party of Wales not to allow people who might wish to support it that opportunity in a Welsh election. There we are. Labour Party supporters and members will have that opportunity, and I'm very glad that they do too.

As to the company that he mentioned, let me give Members this assurance: not a single penny of Welsh money from this Government has gone to that company, and I'd be grateful if the Member would make that clear in any letter he intends to write.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:55, 9 July 2019

(Translated)

Leader of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

Photo of Mark Reckless Mark Reckless Conservative

The leading contender to be the UK's next Prime Minister said on Saturday that the decision to cancel the M4 relief road needed to be reversed. He also said, as you said earlier, First Minister, that there should be a strong Conservative influence on how the shared prosperity fund is spent. First Minister, you said that lack of money stopped you proceeding with the M4 relief road. Would you therefore welcome an offer from the UK Government to fund it through the shared prosperity fund? [Laughter.]

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:56, 9 July 2019

Well, first of all, Llywydd, let me just set the record straight. When the detailed statement that I made on the floor of this Assembly said that there were two reasons why I had decided not to proceed with the M4 relief road, one was because of the impact it would have on our ability to fund other essential projects here in Wales and, secondly and separately, because I was not convinced that the damage done to the ecology and the environment in that part of Wales was sufficiently outweighed by economic gain to allow it to go ahead. So, extra money by itself would certainly not solve the second of those reasons.

My message to the leading contender, as you put it, for the Conservative Party is that he needs to win an election in Wales and then he will be entitled to instruct us on what we should do here. His party has never won an election in Wales in the whole of the era of universal suffrage, and for him to come here and instruct us as to the responsibilities that we have and how we should discharge them, and then to announce that he intends to repatriate responsibilities that have been established here, not to the UK Government you'll recall, if you read what he said, but to the Conservative Party, well I think there are real issues of democratic legitimacy in the way that those points were expressed.

Photo of Mark Reckless Mark Reckless Conservative 1:57, 9 July 2019

Perhaps, First Minister, he could run on a manifesto, promising to deliver a relief road for the M4 and then do the opposite, as you are. You strongly oppose any UK Government role, yet you never objected to the EU role in how these amounts were spent. Last week, you told us that unionists were imperilling the union, after the Foreign Office denied you the use of a car in Brussels. Isn't the real threat—[Interruption.] Isn't the real threat to the union the 20 years we have had of Labour appeasing Plaid Cymru? Today, they are crowing because, yesterday, you told them that your support—Labour support for the union—was subject to review; now, you criticise them, not for their support for independence, but for the fact that it's unambiguous. First Minister, since Wales supports the UK and voted to leave the European Union, why are you as First Minister acting as one with nationalists and Nicola Sturgeon?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:59, 9 July 2019

Llywydd, I do not see for a moment how it undermines the union when people in Wales in successive elections have been able to choose the administrations that they wish to see in charge of devolved responsibilities here in Wales. That is simply the operation of democracy, and people have made their decisions, and we arrive here as a result of them. There is nothing in that at all that has the effect of undermining the union. In fact, it's always been my belief that strong devolved institutions, democratically elected by people who are affected by the decisions they make, strengthen the union and do not undermine it. I think that has been the history of devolution here in Wales.

On the issue of the European Union, the Member knows our position clearly. We have reviewed and reviewed the evidence that tells us that if Wales is to leave the European Union, and particularly if it's ripped out of the European Union in the way that his party and he would like to see, the economy in Wales would be 8 per cent to 10 per cent smaller than it is today with all the damage that will do. We've seen figures in Northern Ireland yesterday that suggest that Northern Ireland may already be in a recession. There are figures that show that if we leave the European Union without a deal on 31 October the rest of the United Kingdom could be in a recession before the end of this calendar year. Think of the damage that that will do to families, to communities and to futures here in Wales. We will not stand by and not provide people in Wales with the advice and the facts that we believe demonstrate to them that their futures are better secured through continued membership of the European Union. That's what we believe to be the case and that's why we will not shrink from expressing that whenever we have the opportunity.