Item 8 on the agenda is a motion to agree the financial resolution in respect of the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill, and I call on the Counsel General and the Brexit Minister to move the motion—Jeremy Miles.

Motion NDM7147 Rebecca Evans

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, for the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order 26.69, arising in consequence of the Bill.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the financial resolution for the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill, which is a significant step in our constitutional journey. As the debate is not taking place immediately after the debate of the general principles, it's worth quickly reminding ourselves what the Bill intends to achieve, which is extending the right to vote, of ending the law on disqualification, and providing for the funding and oversight of the work of the Electoral Commission, principally.

Last week I gave evidence to the Finance Committee about the amendment, which I have now tabled to the Bill, which would make the Electoral Commission accountable to, and financed by, this Assembly. I'm grateful to the committee for their consideration of the issues, and to the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee for leading the Stage 1 scrutiny of the Bill.

I have written to the Finance Committee to set out the cost estimates relating to my Electoral Commission amendments, and I have made these available to all Members ahead of the debate today. The Llywydd, who, as the Member in charge of the Bill, and the Assembly Commission, have a different view from the Government about the way in which the funding relationship between the Assembly and the Electoral Commission should be established, but we will return to that matter during Stage 2. The question for today is whether, for the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill, the Assembly agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order 26.69, arising in consequence of the Bill.

We've been able to make available the necessary costs estimates to enable Members to consider the question more fully. I hope that Members will join the Welsh Government in supporting the motion so that we can proceed to consider the Bill in more detail during the amending stages, and in doing so to move ahead with these important constitutional changes.

Thank you. I call on the Llywydd to speak.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate on the financial resolution in respect of the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill, as the Member in charge of this Bill.

The financial implications of the legislation were outlined in the regulatory impact assessment that was published alongside the Bill when it was introduced, but, in accordance with Standing Orders, updated costs in the amended assessment will be laid after Stage 2 to include any amendments made to the Bill.

At the Finance Committee’s request, this update will also include an estimate of the Welsh Government's costs for raising awareness of votes at 16 and 17 years of age, which were referred to in the original impact assessment as currently unknown figures. The explanatory memorandum will also be updated to reflect any amendments agreed with regard to the Electoral Commission and its accountability and scrutiny arrangements.

I wish to thank the Finance Committee for its recent consideration of the Counsel General's proposed amendments on this matter, and for the relevant report by the committee, which was compiled in just two days. Now, without a shadow of a doubt, this will be of assistance to Members as they consider today's financial resolution and the amendments tabled that are to be considered next week under the Stage 2 process.

With regard to the costs of the amendments in respect of the Electoral Commission, the Counsel General has written to the Finance Committee to outline the financial implications of the amendments he intends to table. I am content as well that these are our best estimate of the costs for the Assembly Commission. Of course, a wide range of other amendments have been tabled, and some of these have significant cost implications. But bearing in mind all of these implications with regard to cost, I continue to be of the opinion that the benefits of the policy position enshrined in the Bill to the people of Wales represents value for money, and I urge the Assembly this afternoon to approve this resolution.

Thank you. Can I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Llyr Gruffydd?

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywyd. I’m pleased to contribute to this debate. As this Chamber will recall, of course, we discussed the general principles of the Bill on 10 July, and the Counsel General agreed to the request from the Finance Committee not to seek the Assembly’s approval of the financial resolution until the Finance Committee had had an opportunity to consider the draft amendments and their cost implications in relation to the Electoral Commission’s arrangements.

On 25 September, we took evidence from the Counsel General and the Llywydd, as Member in charge of the Bill, of course, to discuss the draft amendments in relation to funding and accountability of the Electoral Commission.

The fact that the the draft amendments were not accompanied by detailed financial information was a source of disappointment to us, specifically relating to the cost impact of the amendments. And it was earlier this afternoon, of course, that I received a letter from the Counsel General providing further information on the amendments. Whilst I thank the Counsel General for his letter, it is unfortunate that it was not made available a little bit earlier to allow for fuller consideration before this debate.

Now, during evidence, the Counsel General confirmed that the majority of costs in relation to the amendments to fund and hold the Electoral Commission to account would fall to the Assembly Commission, and that that would be approximately £39,000 over five years for scrutiny. The Counsel General’s letter now confirms this and, as a result, the committee is broadly content with the financial implications of the Bill.

We also heard from the Counsel General that discussions were ongoing with Her Majesty's Treasury regarding the transfer of funding for the Electoral Commission in relation to devolved Welsh elections and referenda. The committee is concerned that Wales may lose out on funding and this will need to be met by existing Welsh resources. So, we recommend that the Counsel General gives a commitment to ensuring the mechanism for determining the value of transfer to be made into the Welsh consolidated fund to cover these costs will not lead to insufficient funds being transferred to Wales. I note the Counsel General’s response to this recommendation that the funding transfer is dependent, of course, on inter-governmental negotiations that are not within the Welsh Government’s control. However, I am pleased that he has given a commitment that the Welsh Government will pursue this as its policy aim. It is extremely important that Wales does not lose out on funding.

The committee has some concerns about the Counsel General’s preferred approach to fund the Electoral Commission’s budget via the Assembly Commission’s budget, in relation to timing and practical issues in particular. In your response, you say, of course, that we can overcome this—well, the evidence that we have received suggests that that may not be easily done. We are also concerned that, under this option, the chief executive of the Assembly Commission would become the accounting officer for the proportion of the Electoral Commission’s budget relating to Wales. The committee considers that this approach does not provide for clear lines of accountability. As I said, the Counsel General says that these issues can be addressed through procedural and process changes outside of the legislative provisions, and I’m sure that Members will be looking at this in greater detail during the Stage 2 proceedings next week.

As the committee would have preferred the Counsel General to present a joint proposal agreed with the Llywydd, I am pleased that he has given his assurance to continue discussions with the Llywydd on whether such an agreement can be reached. Indeed, I very much hope that that’s possible. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Can I ask the Counsel General and Brexit Minister to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I thank the Llywydd and the committee Chair for their comments, and may I give you an assurance that the Welsh Government is committed to ensuring that information is available so that Members can scrutinise the legislation in an appropriate manner? The Government will, of course, look at some of the cost implications of this Bill within the 2020-21 budgetary process.

In terms of the comments made on the details of the amendments, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to respond to those in this debate, but I do look forward to doing so when we turn to our Stage 2 proceedings. So, today I ask the Assembly to agree on the expenditure as a result of this Bill. Thank you.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, thank you. Therefore, I defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.