Which brings us now to the debate on the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee report on supporting and promoting the Welsh language, and I call on the committee Chair to move the motion. Bethan Sayed.

Motion NDM7151 Bethan Sayed

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the report of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee: Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language laid in the Table Office on 9 July.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. It’s important for us in Wales that we have the ability to use the language of our choice in our everyday interactions with public services. Not only is it a basic right, but it’s crucial to building our sense of self and community.

The Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 was an important milestone in the history of our language. The Measure, for the first time, declared the official status of the Welsh language here in Wales. It also clarified the expectations for the provision of Welsh language services for speakers and service providers.

So, our inquiry looked at the perceived successes and limitations of the Measure, and we asked whether it supports Welsh language promotion, which is an issue that we felt has not received the attention it deserves. We heard, as a committee, that the Measure is an improvement on the previous system of publishing language schemes. And we were told that moving from schemes to a standards regime has provided clarity and has established rights for Welsh speakers. The majority of witnesses told us this is a positive step for both the public and the bodies that serve them.

However, there was some frustration about the complexity of the standards. In assessing whether to continue with the current system or to simplify aspects of the legislation, we recognised as a committee that the majority of the organisations currently implementing the standards have only been doing so for a year or two. The committee therefore agreed with the Welsh Language Commissioner in post at the time who told us, and I quote, that

'it's much too early to decide that the legislation needs to be amended wholesale' on this point. She said that there has already been a positive change on the ground in a number of county councils that had changed people’s lives. So, as a committee, we want to see that being rooted and embedded in our communities before there is great change.

Now, clearly the Welsh Government heard the weight of evidence being presented to the committee and responded by withdrawing their proposed Welsh language Bill in February.

In terms of streamlining the standards, there are, however, a few issues that still need to be addressed in the absence of new legislation. We recommended that the current standards are streamlined, by combining ones with similar aims. The Welsh Government have accepted this recommendation and I would like to see more detail on the Minister’s plans to consider how this can be done.

I'm pleased that the Government has accepted our recommendation to speed up the introduction of standards for those sectors that are not already subject to the Measure. Again, I would like to ask the Minister to publish details and a timetable for this work.

We want to see the next set of regulations for water companies and health regulators being introduced urgently. I am disappointed that the Government can't say more on this other than noting that the standards are being developed. They have already been delayed for far too long in our opinion as a committee. We need a firm date for their introduction.

We also recommended revising the complaints procedure as the current process does not allow for complaints to be resolved without a full investigation. Amending the complaints framework was one of the proposals in the Welsh Government’s withdrawn Bill, of course. So, in the absence of a new Bill, we are pleased to see that the commissioner has taken steps to alter the investigation procedure along the lines of our recommendation as a committee. But when the commissioner came to committee recently, there was a lack of detail about how that was going to be done, and I think that the public in Wales, who are perhaps going to put forward a complaint, need to know with certainty what is going to happen and who they are complaining to. So, I would urge the commissioner and the Government to collaborate on that.

One issue that I believe hasn't received the attention it deserves is the promotion of the Welsh language. That hasn't received much attention: how we promote the language. When the Welsh Language Board was abolished, the responsibility for promoting the language was transferred to the Welsh Government, and a great deal has been done. We have to acknowledge that. But many people have said to us that we need to establish a new arm's-length body to promote the language. But, bearing in mind the consideration we gave to it as a committee and certainly in terms of the resources available, we felt that perhaps it would be better to see how we can use what we already have, and how we can use those processes that we already have to do this.

I understand that work on a memorandum of understanding between the Welsh Government and the commissioner has been started, and I would like to have more information about how that is going to work. For example, is the commissioner going to receive additional resources to do that promotion work, which might perhaps add to their remit? Or will they be expected to do the same thing with the same amount of budget? I would be interested in knowing what your opinion is on that.

I would also like to know a little bit more about the status of the Welsh language unit in the Government. The Government announced a new delivery unit called Project 2050, and even though we welcome that, it is crucial for it to have the necessary resources and expertise to succeed. If it's going to look at the Welsh language across everything that happens in Government, it's very important that that unit is supported.

So, I certainly believe that this work has been very useful for us to look back at the Measure, which was put forward in 2014. A great deal has changed since then, and a lot of opportunities have been given to organisations to change what they are doing, and there's been a great deal of culture change. That was what I was pleased to hear. Even in those areas perhaps that we would believe would be traditionally English-speaking areas, they have made more of an effort to change what happens in terms of their processes.

What perhaps we need to improve still is the use of the language and how people can develop their confidence to think that that is part of their everyday lives. It's not just a challenge for the Measure, but a challenge for us all in terms of strategies and how we do our everyday work, and how we promote the language as Assembly Members. So, I would urge people to get involved in this debate and to realise how important this element of our work is as Members. 

May I also thank the committee for their work? The publication of the 2050 strategy was ambitious and its success will depend on a number of things, including promotion, so I was pleased to see this report.

I wasn't here when the Welsh language Measure was passed. It’s been in statute for a long period of time, now, and therefore it’s entirely appropriate that we review it and consider its impact. Certainly, it is appropriate that we review the legislation because of the relationship between the Welsh Government and the commissioner. Certainly, Members know that we as Welsh Conservatives would prefer to see the commissioner accountable to this Assembly rather than to the Welsh Government, and there is good reason for that.

Many of us here will recall that the commissioner was relieved of some of her promotion duties by a previous Welsh language Minister, without the consent of the Assembly that provided those powers. More recently, we have seen the current Minister trying to abolish the role entirely and create a commission, which was very similar, to all intents and purposes, but felt less independent to my eyes. I'm very pleased that the Government has realised that its White Paper didn't have the support of this Assembly.

In turning to the recommendations, there are some very good ideas here. Changing the complaints procedures: yes. There are a number of degrees of gravity in terms of complaints and the current system doesn't allow a commensurate response. Recommendation 4 suggests that there should be simplification and, yes, we agree with that. A review of the efficiency of standards and duties: yes. Although standards are framed specifically in terms of creating and safeguarding the rights of Welsh speakers, I would want to judge their efficacy by evidence of growth in the use of the Welsh language and development in usage by Welsh learners or those who are shy in using the Welsh language.

I have said already that some rights are appreciated more by Welsh speakers than others in terms of their daily lives, and some are more useful in promoting the value of bilingualism than others. Before extending standards to new organisations and bodies, I think we need to understand which standards deliver those aims. And that’s why recommendations 4 to 7 are interesting. I recognise the committee’s comment that the Government could hasten the process of implementing the current standards, but it’s one thing to simplify standards for the future to make them more palatable for new organisations, yet it’s another thing to dilute them for new organisations. The core principle with the current menu of standards is that they should be applied reasonably and proportionately. Therefore, diluting standards could create a dilemma. Perhaps smaller organisations and more private organisations would be willing to accept them, but Welsh speakers would have fewer rights. The current system, we know, is confusing already, so we need to be guarded in interpreting these recommendations for any draft standards in the future.

The other recommendations relate to promotion. When you’re trying to persuade someone to do something, it doesn’t help to have a huge 'Welsh Government' badge on it. According to recommendation 11, the Welsh language unit is the place to collect and analyse data, to commission research, to provide resources, to take responsibility for implementing the 2050 strategy across Government, and to create high-level strategies and to plan with expert assistance. But I don’t think that this is the best place to promote the Welsh language, although it does have a key role in monitoring and evaluating the promotional activity undertaken by others. I’m not sure that the Government’s response to recommendation 11 is clear as to where the boundary lies between strategy and promotional activity.

I would say that the best way of providing advice on behavioural change is for someone entirely independent outwith Government, who has responsibility for working in a co-productive manner and with target audiences, to promote meaningful acquisition of Welsh language skills. There’s no purpose for a civil servant to tell mentrau iaith to attract people to an event unless there is an improvement in the usage of the Welsh language as a result of that. This responsibility could be given to a commissioner or a separate body—I don’t care much where the responsibility lies—but that body must have the freedom to design the activities of mentrau so that those on the front line are teaching adults or training council officers. And some of those have been less than clear in terms of their responsibilities in promoting the Welsh language. Thank you.

As we’ve already heard, the context of this inquiry by the committee was the Welsh Government’s intention in the summer of 2017 to legislate anew with regard to the Welsh language, and to do so barely 18 months after the 2011 Welsh language Measure had started to embed. So, Plaid Cymru was very pleased that common sense had prevailed, and ultimately the proposals were set aside. The evidence that the committee heard, the consensus of opinion that had been reported by language organisations, academics and perhaps most importantly by those organisations that implement legislation, all confirms that now is not the time to make far-reaching changes to a relatively new system. Even though that system isn’t perfect, as the committee says, it continues to drive significant progress with regard to the status of the Welsh language and its usage.

Even though I welcome the decision made by the Minister to set those proposals aside, recommendation 3 in the report, which suggests that any future proposals to amend or replace the Welsh language Measure should be supported by evidence, causes some concern and is a sign that the Welsh Government’s proposals for the language Bill weren't based on evidence in the first instance. And clearly, that isn't how a responsible Government should operate, and we need to learn lessons from these weaknesses that led to a loss of focus on the implementation of the strategy for creating 1 million Welsh speakers. So, I’d like to thank the committee for stepping into the breach and gathering the evidence that was missing in the discussion with regard to the Bill—to do the Government’s work for it, some would say, and to point to the priorities in moving forward.

It’s a matter, now, for the Government to look at these priorities, to take the reins and to implement them. And I want to focus the rest of my contribution on three important priorities, as far as I can see, and I would appreciate it if the Minister would take the opportunity to give a progress report on these points.

The report confirms that it’s in the Welsh Government’s hands that the responsibility for promoting the Welsh language lies and we need to improve the status of the Welsh language unit in the Government. Clearly, we need a powerful unit within Government, not a unit that’s buried in the civil service. I was at the Eisteddfod, where the Minister announced that there’s one new post—one new post—within the current division that will be created. And we also heard in the case of the fair work agenda, which is entirely appropriately a priority across Government—we heard in that particular case that there will be a directorate set up in the First Minister’s department to look at it. So, why doesn’t the Welsh language have the same status within Government?

The report recommends that the commissioner should review the complaints procedures regularly in terms of their effectiveness and their impact on service users. Everyone, as far as I can see it, wants to see effective procedures that give a voice to the citizen and the Welsh language. But putting additional pressure on the commissioner not to investigate complaints as a matter of course would be tantamount to weakening the standards regime. So, could you explain, Minister, why you have put pressure on the commissioner to undertake less investigation into complaints? And will you confirm today the independence of the commissioner?

My final point: Plaid Cymru—I have called many times for a timetable for introducing the standards across the whole range of areas that remain, where the commissioner has done that initial work. So, perhaps today you could share the latest timetable for introducing the timetables for the water companies and the health regulators, in addition to the remaining sectors in the Measure that haven’t been touched by you yet. Will you also confirm that you want to see the commissioner starting to do preparatory work in the telecommunications sector?

Thank you to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee for their report on supporting and promoting the Welsh language. Although I won’t make my entire contribution through the medium of Welsh, I am passionate about the value of the Welsh language; it's worth keeping alive.

I welcome the measured approach taken by the committee and the fact that the Welsh Government have accepted in full or in principle all 14 recommendations. I believe the position taken by the committee and Welsh Ministers is an acceptance that the carrot is far more effective than the stick. The Welsh language is a vital part of our shared heritage and culture. The fact that less than one in five of the population is able to speak Welsh points to past policy failings. Given that for the last 20 years it has been compulsory for all students to study Welsh, more than 19 per cent of the population should be able to speak the language. I certainly hear more of the language spoken in supermarkets and little ones engaging with their parents, and I therefore welcome the shift in focus to encouraging more people to learn rather than us forcing them to. And we must take people along with us on this journey—it’s exciting.

We have seen major progress in the use of the Welsh language recently, particularly in terms of technology.

We have seen big strides in the use of the language in the wider world in recent times, particularly in technology, and we have Welsh language versions of many software platforms, open-source projects seeking to bring the language to voice assistance, and learning platforms such as Duolingo allowing us to learn on the go. Utilising this technological change will enable us to encourage far more people to learn. I am however concerned that cutbacks to local authority budgets will hamper the Welsh Government's ambition for 1 million Welsh speakers. Adult learning opportunities are suffering as a result of cutbacks, and this will hamper efforts to encourage more people to take up learning Welsh. So, I would therefore urge the Minister to go further than recommendation 12 and ensure adequate funding for more than just promotion—they must ensure adequate funding for adult Welsh language classes. This approach is the best way of achieving more people to be able to speak the language of our forebearers. Thank you.

The Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language to contribute to the debate—Eluned Morgan.

Thank you very much. First of all, may I thank the committee for their work during this inquiry and for their careful consideration of the evidence presented? As I've already noted in the Government's written response to the committee, we accept or accept in principle all of the recommendations contained within the report—noting, of course, that not all of the recommendations are recommendations for the Government. Some of them are for your own committee, so I won't go through each and every one of them today.

Members will be aware that I made a statement in August about the next steps in terms of the structures for implementing the Cymraeg 2050 strategy. Our role as a Government is to lead, to plan, to set the context and to create the right conditions for collaboration in working towards that 1 million Welsh speakers. It's wonderful to see that Caroline Jones is one of those 1 million that we will have by 2050. Thank you very much for making your contribution in Welsh.

Part of the leadership role, of course, is to take strategic decisions. In our view as a Government, the emphasis in terms of language policy has tended too far towards regulation, at the expense of other policy interventions over the past few years. And that was what underpinned the White Paper of 2017. And although we are no longer expecting to legislate, I have made a decision that is aimed at seeing a better balance between creating rights to access Welsh services on the one hand, and practical work, which is policy work, on the other hand. Of course, this will lead to increasing the number of Welsh speakers as we strive to the 1 million by 2050, doubling the daily use of the Welsh language and maintaining our Welsh-speaking communities.

To succeed in this work, I agree with the evidence presented to the committee on the need to ensure that there is greater focus and emphasis placed on language planning and behavioural change within Government and outwith Government. That is why we will invest in language planning expertise in establishing this 2050 project, which is a new multidisciplinary unit within the Welsh Government that will be responsible for driving the Cymraeg 2050 strategy. Of course, the aim is that we mainstream the Welsh language across Government. That's the ambition. So, we don't want this department to be a small part of Government. The purpose of the department is to mainstream. As I announced in August, the funds will be used to fund a civil service post to lead this project and to commission a panel of up to four expert advisers on language planning. My officials are currently working on this.

Will you take an intervention?

Of course.

Why is the Government creating a directorate for the fair work agenda, but isn't doing that for the Welsh language, which also has a cross-governmental focus?

Well, of course, we already have a department. What we’re trying to do with this new project is to ensure that this is something that is cross-governmental. Therefore, it is a different approach, yes, but we are seeking to achieve the same aims as that process.

So, the task of the 2050 project will be to co-ordinate the work of planning on our journey towards 1 million Welsh speakers, from the early years, through Welsh-medium education in the statutory sector, through to post-16, and Welsh for adults. We will also double the use of the Welsh language by creating new projects and evaluating current projects. And, thirdly, we will be supporting Welsh-speaking communities by supporting policy departments across Government to ensure that our policies in all departments do contribute to that, where relevant. That is the purpose of the new project. The project will report to me, as Minister, and will work closely with the Welsh language partnership council, which advises me on the Welsh language. I am confident that through working together, the experience and expertise of the 2050 project, the partnership council, the commissioner and grant partners will all put us on the right path in reaching that target.

Developing a better partnership of working with the Welsh Language Commissioner has been a priority for us this year. I’m pleased that we’ve agreed a memorandum of understanding, between myself and Aled Roberts, in August. Both of us are entirely clear that we must collaborate on a number of issues whilst we respect—and I want to highlight this—the independence of the commissioner in issues related to imposing and enforcing standards.

Let me be clear that the Welsh Government is fully committed to developing standards in order to enhance the rights of people to access services through the medium of Welsh. Rights are an important role of the policy interventions for delivering Cymraeg 2050. New regulations are being drafted at the moment in order to provide standards for those two sectors—the water companies and healthcare regulators. And it is difficult to give a specific date, because Brexit does limit our ability and our legal capacity internally, but I can tell you that there are a number of processes to go through in terms of consultation. Of course, the committee themselves have said that they want us to consult with them at an early stage, and we will endeavour to do that. There are a number of steps, and I have discussed this with the commissioner this week. But I do hope that, next year, this will happen.

The committee’s report has made a number of recommendations on how we should approach simplifying standards by reviewing or merging multiple standards that have the same aim or outcome. And I agree with this. I want to reassure you that the policy objectives have not changed. I am clear that any changes made to the process of developing standards should not have a negative impact on services for Welsh speakers. I am just as firm in the view that the organisations need to be clear on what they need to deliver. But I want to underline that reducing the number of standards is not akin to simplification. I want to avoid a situation where we create fewer standards in order to create standards that are longer and more complex. And neither do I want to create simpler standards that will mean that the compliance notices that the commissioner prepares will become more complex and more onerous.

The committee also said that it’s only after considering the need to review the standards that the next set of regulations should be imposed or should be brought forward for the water companies and health regulators. It’s important that we take our time to ensure that the regulations that we provide from here on in do reflect the lessons learned from the consultation on the White Paper and from the evidence received by the committee.

We as a nation have an innovative and exciting target to reach 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050 and to double the use of the Welsh language. As a Government, we are entirely committed to both those targets, and I have been hugely encouraged that there is support across the nation for this ambition. It is an ambition that has captured the imagination of the nation, and I’m sure, together, we will reach that target.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Thank you. I call on Bethan Sayed to reply to the debate. Bethan. 

Thank you very much to those Assembly Members who contributed today, and well done to Caroline Jones, again, for practising her Welsh here today. It’s very important that we try to do so when we have the opportunity to do so.

I have time, perhaps, just to explain some of the things that some Members had concerns about. I’d like to start, therefore, with this idea that Suzy put forward about dumbing down standards if we’re going to simplify them. And I think that Siân Gwenllian felt similarly in that regard. What we were trying to say as a committee, as the Minister said, was that, if there were multiple or similar standards, then we could simplify and streamline the process so that there were too many of them, and organisations had to comply with them. It wasn’t to weaken or to dilute the process. If we thought for a second that it was going to dilute the process, we would not have recommended it as a committee. So, of course, we need to see how this develops.

We’re hearing that there are operational concerns from the Minister. So, down the line, we’ll need to understand what those concerns are. But I urge upon those people who are watching this debate—the public who are going to be bringing forward complaints, perhaps—that that wasn’t the intention. What we were hearing from councils or other organisations was that they genuinely wanted to respond to the complaints, but sometimes the standards were so complex it was difficult for them to understand what exactly the path forward was. So, we want to help to improve them, and we want to help them, so please do understand that we’re not trying to dilute the standards. Time will tell how that plays out.

Now, some in this Chamber—Siân Gwenllian and Suzy Davies—clearly agree with regard to what happened with the commission and so on. And, clearly, the Government had listened and had seen what the evidence had shown when people came to committee; they weren’t supportive. A few of the organisations, perhaps, were supportive, but at present we're still seeing how the Measure is working on the ground. I think it would be very odd to change such a new system at the moment, and so that’s why we came down on the side of giving time for the regime to embed, and then assessing again in future.

I would disagree, unfortunately, with the Minister about saying that there was too much focus, perhaps, or too much had happened on regulations to this point. If we want to establish a new system, then we need to have those regulations in place and we need to ensure that they work. And now, I think, we have reached a point where we can look at the promotion, because those systems are in place. And I think that’s why people perhaps didn’t want to see a new Bill coming forward with a focus, perhaps, on regulations, when being on the ground and speaking the language in our communities is what we all want to prioritise.

Certainly, we are content that the Minister had spoken, in terms of the focus on language planning, about the new unit. We’re going to assess that and monitor that, I’m sure. I do have some—. I agree with Siân Gwenllian to an extent, because, if there is going to be a new unit, if there is going to be a focus on creating a new post, then it’s a bit disappointing to hear that Brexit is perhaps going to undermine some of the work that needs to be done as a matter of urgency. If it’s going to be mainstreamed, if there is an objective to put forward new standards, then that unit should be sufficiently robust and resilient to be able to withstand what’s happening, whether Brexit—. Brexit is ongoing and discussions are ongoing on a daily basis; we need to continue with other work as well, and I would urge the Minister to consider the fact that we need to ensure that this unit is robust and resilient and receives the support that you’ve said that you are going to give it today.

Now, I believe that the directorate has been mentioned today already, and I just want to conclude by saying that there is now an opportunity for us as a committee and for us as Assembly Members to look at how we can consider other elements of what is happening with regard to the Welsh language. Caroline Jones talked about technology and the digital arena, and we’re pleased to say that, as a committee, we will be looking at technology and the digital arena in the future, because it’s something that has been raised with us, as a committee, as being very important.

So, it is important that we do realise that legislation is important, of course, and the regulations and standards are important as well, but we do need to see the use of the Welsh language increasing and improving on the ground. Suzy Davies’s idea is a very good one. If mentrau iaith are holding events, then we want some of their objectives, or the things that they report back to Government on, to show that the use of the Welsh language has evolved and developed, rather than just that they can reach that target of 1 million Welsh speakers. Well, how is that 1 million doing it? Are they using it to put the baby to bed? Are they using it when they go down the street to the pub and talk to their friends? How is that going to evolve to be a daily reality for people?

So, thank you to everyone for engaging with this important report. I think it was a report that ended up being quite influential. So, not every report perhaps ends up being quite as influential, but we do our work, but I think this report was one of those ones that were influential. Thank you to the Government for listening and for being willing to respond to some of the things that they heard as part of the discussion, which I believe was a positive and constructive one between the Government, those who gave evidence, and Assembly Members. Thank you to everyone.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.