Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, why does your newly published Brexit White Paper, ‘A brighter future for Wales', make reference to national identification cards? The document states, and I quote:

‘Some have argued that a national ID card might be a price worth paying to address concerns about so-called "uncontrolled" migration from the EEA.’

Is this the Welsh Government’s view—that you want billions of pounds to be spent on documentation that presumably people will have to pay for, and that would curtail their civil liberties simply to address what you admit are unfounded concerns? If this is not the Welsh Government’s view, and I hope it isn’t, why make reference to ID cards in this document at all?  

Well, the Member has raised this point before, as have Members of her party, and I will just say that, in relation to a matter as sensitive as this, I think it's—you know, we shouldn’t go out of our way to look for points of division where none exist. The document to which she refers really builds on the principles of 'Securing Wales’ Future', which, obviously, was co-authored with Plaid Cymru, and indeed it further builds on the paper ‘Brexit and Fair Movement of People’, which her party also welcomed. The document does not say that ID cards are the Welsh Government’s policy—it simply says that some have argued that there are benefits to it. But I think she must see that in the context of a broader discussion in that paper, which establishes very clearly that the policy we advocate is within the boundaries, within the parameters, of freedom of movement as exercised by other EU member states.  

Thank you, Minister. There are many things in the document that we do agree with, but I would urge the Minister to see that language in the context of the Home Office's hostile environment policy. The introduction, or—. Talking about national ID cards isn't the only aspect of this document that would also cause concern to non-UK EU citizens in Wales who are already feeling threatened. The document advocates tracking migrants using national insurance so that their economic activity could be monitored—with a view, I presume, to make it easier to collect evidence that could lead to deportations. The Trefnydd yesterday denied that the document advocated forced deportations. I would ask you how this squares with the inclusion of sentences making reference to the legitimate removal of migrants and benefit tourism. Given that your Government has published a plan to make Wales a nation of sanctuary, which we welcome, and that you've in the past criticised the UK Government for their disgraceful hostile environment policy, do you now believe it was a mistake to include language in this document that has the potential to cause further distress for EU migrants living in Wales?

Well, I know the Member has a party conference at the end of the week, but I do think that this is not an appropriate line of questioning to be pursuing. I refer her to the point that I made—[Interruption.] I refer her to the point I made earlier, which is that this policy document builds on the language that we used in 'Brexit and Fair Movement of People', which says, in effect, that jobseekers would be asked to register in order to ensure that people seeking to work do so in a reasonable amount of time, which is what happens in other European countries, and, where that is not the case, or if they don't have a genuine prospect of employment, we should be able to ask them to leave the UK. That is the language in 'Brexit and Fair Movement of People', which your Brexit spokesperson agreed was a pragmatic approach. So, I think it's very important that we shouldn't seek to look for divisions in relation to this issue.

She will also know that, in relation to EU citizens living in Wales, the Government has taken a number of steps in order to support them in seeking to register for settled status within the UK Government scheme, including funding Citizens Advice to provide advice to them, funding a specialist immigration law service, Newfields Law, to deal with complex cases, seeking the extension of digital assistance centres across Wales so that it facilitates EU citizens seeking support, and also working with a range of charities and third sector organisations to raise awareness. 

Thank you, Minister, and those things are all things that we do welcome, which is why I would really urge you to remove the references to legitimately removing migrants, benefit tourism and ID cards from this document. And, if you were to do that, then my party would be very willing to discuss it further with you and to look at voting for it, if you intend to hold a vote.

I'd like to turn finally to something we have in common. We both want a second referendum with 'remain' on the ballot, and I also have noted, with reverence, that you agree with Plaid Cymru rather than elements of your own party that there should be a referendum before an election. I would welcome that.

We've said we'd be willing to support Jeremy Corbyn to have a first shot at being caretaker Prime Minister to secure an article 50 extension and deliver a referendum—that's only fair, but it doesn't look like he'll have the numbers for that at present. So, Minister, I'd ask you, in these circumstances, would you then support someone else to be caretaker Prime Minister, an elder statesperson perhaps, to go to Brussels to secure that extension—[Interruption.]—or indeed yourself—and then to immediately call a general election? Or would you rather risk no deal than support anyone but Corbyn to be a caretaker PM?

I realise, from comments that are being made from sedentary positions by your colleagues, that this is a Westminster issue, but I'm sure you'll have an opinion on this matter, given your strongly held views that 'no deal' would be a disaster that must be averted at all costs.

Well, firstly, relating to the points that she raised on the document, I wish that she had raised those points before the document had been published; we would have been happy to engage in detail in relation to those in order to seek an agreed position with Plaid Cymru. But, on the broader point that she makes about parliamentary arrangements, I'm not going to be answering questions here about the Welsh Labour position in Parliament. Those are questions for Parliament. I'm happy to answer questions in relation to Welsh Government policy here in Wales. 

Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Minister, can you clarify what your policy is on Brexit?

I'm very, very happy to do that. I'm normally—. We are normally criticised for providing so much opportunity in the Chamber for describing our Brexit policy, but I'm very happy to do so. Our position here is that we seek to remain—that Wales should remain part of the European Union, and we think the matter should be put back to the people in a referendum so the people can give their opinion, and in that referendum the Welsh Government will advocate they vote to remain members of the European Union.

I'm very grateful for that response. Of course, you could have outlined three potential responses, because the Labour Party has adopted, it seems to me, three policies. Of course, we all know that Jeremy Corbyn did, and then didn't, want a general election, and then he wants to hold conversations with the EU in order to get a deal that he might or might not support in a second referendum. The Welsh Government's position seems to be that it also wants a general election, but not quite yet, and then it wants to hold a second referendum, and no matter what deal comes back, including if that deal is supported by a Labour Prime Minister, you will campaign against it and to remain in the EU. And then, of course, there's you, as the Brexit Minister for the Welsh Government, who said just yesterday, in contradiction to both the UK Labour line and the Welsh Labour line, that you thought it would be ideal to have a second referendum before a general election, in spite of the fact that, earlier this year, at the Welsh Labour conference, you said that a second referendum isn't the best solution. What a complete and utter shambles your policy actually is. Given the fact that you have a menu of choices that you appear to be putting before the British electorate, how on earth can anybody trust you to deliver anything on Brexit?

Well, I'm always happy to provide a platform for the Conservative association of Clwyd West to assess their potential candidate for the next general election, but I would just remind him that I'm not going to engage with the political badinage that he so enjoys. I would just invite him to recall that Boris Johnson was against a referendum and against an election, and is now in favour of an election and voted both for and against Theresa May's deal. So, I think, when he wants to look for confusions and a menu of options, he should look somewhat nearer to home. 

I didn't quite catch what position you're taking today, in contrast to the position you had yesterday and the position of the Welsh Government and the UK Labour Party. What I will say is that, unlike the Labour Party, at least my party's got a very clear position, and that is that we want to get Brexit done. We want to deliver Brexit without any more dithering or delay, by 31 October, so that we can move on and focus on people's priorities across the country, like sorting out the mess that you've left in terms of our national health service here in Wales, raising standards in education after a decade of stagnation, and putting more police on our streets. The people of Wales have already voted, of course, on this matter, in June 2016, and, in fact, they already had a second vote as well, because they endorsed that position and the position of party manifestos, both in your party and my party, which said that they would deliver on the Brexit referendum and deliver Brexit. So, they've already had two opportunities to express a view. So, instead of being like a beast with three heads, I think it's about time that the Labour Party got behind the efforts of the UK Government to deliver a Brexit that works for the UK and works for Wales. Will you therefore adopt the position that I think your party needs to take, and that is to work collaboratively with the UK Government to deliver Brexit rather than trying to thwart it?

Might I just gently suggest that I think at the heart of his party's problem is the confusion between a slogan and a policy? Simply repeating 'Get Brexit done' is not going to get anyone anywhere, and if he thinks there is going to be money left to invest in the health service, in schools and in the police service after a 'hard deal' Brexit, I think he's living in cloud-cuckoo-land.