I now call the spokespeople to question the Minister, and the first this afternoon is Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Leanne Wood. 

Last month, you issued a written statement saying that you were aware of a number of high-rise buildings constructed within the last 10 to 15 years that have significant defects. Now, I've received correspondence concerning buildings that fall into this category and it's appalling to read stories of young families trapped in unsuitable flats that they can't sell because nobody has taken responsibility for rectifying those defects, to ensure that those properties can then be sold on by families wishing to move on. Minister, what are you going to do to help families in this situation that will help them now?

We have a range of things that we're doing. A number of the questions that are coming up in this session are around what we're doing about building safety and regulation. But we are in a difficulty where some of the private sector landlords have not been able to step forward or, actually, in one really very difficult situation in my own constituency where a range of people have gone bankrupt one after the other and left people in a very parlous situation. We're in extensive correspondence and meetings with the local authority there to see what can be done to alleviate some of the difficulties that you've expressed. We don't have that many in Wales that I'm aware of, but where we do have the problem, it is a serious problem. So, we are looking to see what we can do to assist people with help to stay, for example, or helping them if they get into difficulty with mortgage payments and so on. But it's a very, very difficult problem if somebody goes into what's colloquially called 'negative equity' as a result of the repairs that are necessary.

We are helping people access advice services, so that they can take action against any professional people who provided them with advice that was inaccurate or misleading, which has been the case for some people. But it is a very difficult problem, so I have no easy solution to offer those families, I'm afraid. 

If there are small numbers of people involved, perhaps, Minister, you'd be prepared to meet with some of the people who've been affected by this, because it is something that's impacting severely on—

Just to say on that, actually—I should say that my colleague Vaughan Gething, in his Assembly Member capacity, is bringing some people to meet with me for exactly that purpose very shortly.

Okay, thank you very much. Minister, I think one thing that could happen is that there could be a change in planning law, to ensure that, especially the big developers who've profited from these frauds—and I use that word deliberately—can have their previous records taken into account as material considerations within the planning system. You've been on record as saying that some of these new developments will be the slums of the future. Now, whether you've been referring to the lack of public services to support those developments, or to the poor quality of those developments themselves, I don't think it really matters, because the conclusion that you've reached is one that I agree with.

One of the explanations is that, since the financial crash, smaller firms have disappeared, leaving larger firms dominating the market and making excess profit from a lax planning system and from lax regulation. Do you agree with me that it's time for a windfall tax on these large firms, to pay for the restitution of the defects caused by poor development?

That's obviously out of competence for the Assembly, but I certainly think that something needs to be done, in terms of remedial impact for some of the pieces of work that we've seen. Only today I met with house builders in Wales to discuss a way forward, and to set out our ambition for better homes, better space standards, better carbon design, better community planning, better placemaking, and that was a relatively consensual meeting around what can be achieved if we work together. I would just like to reiterate at this point, Deputy Presiding Officer, that we are very happy to work with all the builders in Wales, as long as they come along this journey with us, so that we get a sense of place and community back into our planning process.

I will say that we are working very hard on our part L of the building regs, which we'll be coming on to in questions later on in this session, so that we can put a regulatory system in place, which will prevent some of these problems from happening. We're particularly concerned where, for example, fire breaks in cavity walls have been left out because of the speed or competence of the construction methodology used. So, we're working very hard to cover off some of those, but that doesn't help the people who are already in that situation. We are also looking very hard at the new homes ombudsman arrangements in England. I don't yet have enough detail to say whether we'll be able to go along with that, but we're very keen on having a system of that sort, so that people have redress if they do find themselves in those very difficult circumstances.

Okay. Well, I'm encouraged to hear that you're having those conversations, because this isn't just about the past—there are shoddy developments that are getting through planning committees right now as we speak. Just in August, Persimmon received planning permission for a development near the town centre in Bridgend—prime development land. It contained no provision for affordable housing, with, instead, a cash payment equivalent to just £50,000 per affordable house that should have been provided—a development next door to a recently designated air quality management area, with officers acknowledging that the development would make the situation a lot worse. Planning officers insisted that because their local development plan, written in 2013, allocated this land for housing, then that decision overrode the air pollution concerns that weren't known at the time. It took precedence over the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and that, if the committee refused to give permission, the local authority would lose on appeal and have to pay costs. I remember when I was a local authority councillor being threatened with surcharge. Local authority councillors are still being threatened with surcharge, and that is not right. So, can you tell us, with the shoddy developments that are going through planning committees now, what can you do to halt them?

So, we're very much in the space of encouraging all local authorities with plans that are more than five years old, which that sounds like it is, to be in the review process. The whole purpose of the plan-led process is to keep it up to date, so that, as new developments become apparent—zero-carbon building possibilities, air quality issues and so on—the plan takes those into account. They should be living documents, really.

I cannot comment on the individual application—I don't know enough about it—but we are working across Wales with local planning authorities, and with the Welsh Local Government Association planning spokespeople, and actually with our highways colleagues across Wales, to get a shared vision together of what can be achieved inside the planning process. Leanne Wood will know that we've got the national development framework out for consultation at the moment, and we are working very hard on getting the strategic planning layer in place, so that we have as up-to-date a set of plans as is humanly possible, that have as much democratic accountability inside them as possible. Because she's absolutely right: things change over five years—five years is far too long, in a swiftly moving technology environment, for those kinds of decisions to be made. But I can't make any comment on that particular application I'm afraid.

During the Assembly's summer recess, Government Social Research published a report, 'Leadership development and talent management in local authorities in Wales', carried out on behalf of Academi Wales, the public service's leadership and management development organisation, based within Welsh Government. This said that, among the 22 local authorities in Wales, some have established long-standing leadership development programmes, whilst others are unable to resource the investment in training and development, and that little is known about the rationale, design, implementation, or impacts of the programmes, nor is there sufficient information about the links to be made between local authorities with regard to sharing and replicating approaches to leadership development. How, therefore, do you respond to their recommendations, amongst which are that

'Local authorities should consider developing mechanisms to include the voice of the citizen to inform its workforce planning activities. Local authorities, through the provision of Public Service Boards (PSBs) and Local Wellbeing Plans have an opportunity to ensure that the views and long-term aspirations of citizens are included in the development of a future workforce that has the skills and behaviours to meet the demands of the local community', and also that

'Academi Wales should consider the support it provides to local authorities to monitor, measure and evaluate the collective impact of leadership development'?

I think it was a very good report, and, in fact, it gives me the opportunity to plug the public services summit that I and the First Minister will be addressing tomorrow, which runs over two days in the Liberty Stadium, down in Swansea, with the exact purpose of spreading good practice far and wide in Wales, along the theme of one public service for Wales. Academi Wales is actually an extremely good organisation, and has been praised, and indeed is praised in that report, for its ability to frame the leadership conversation in local government. We've also been working very hard with the WLGA, and indeed with some Welsh European Funding Office funding that we have, to fund leadership possibilities for third-tier and below officers right across local authorities in Wales, so that they have career-enhancing leadership opportunities. And we're very keen on working up, with Academi Wales, opportunities for secondments—both from the Welsh Government civil service, out into operational departments in local government, and vice versa, so that each has a better understanding of how the other works, with a view to enhancing the leadership aspects of that.

In terms of the public voice, we're very much encouraging local authorities to engage with their public in as wide a series of events as possible, both with a view to enhancing public service provision, but with a view to enhancing the officers of the authorities' understanding of how they deliver public services in their particular area.

I don't know if Mark Isherwood was trying to say that he wanted to advocate this, but, just to be clear, I don't—I don't think one size fits all in Wales. So, I don't think you can say, 'This looks like good leadership—you must do it like this.' I think that's very different, depending on where you are, what your authority looks like, what your local population looks like. But we do work very hard with Academi Wales on spreading good practice, right across Wales, and the next two days down in Swansea is a good example of that.

Can I just say, I'm not focused on trying to specify what good leadership looks like, but more how we develop good leadership. And in my professional background, it was a betrayal of people, from the lowest positions to the highest positions, if we didn't have a performance management system in place that was entirely interactive, and which respected people and agreed ways forward, so that they could develop professionally, individually and contribute accordingly. 

In developing a similar theme, this week the Auditor General for Wales has produced a report on public services boards, stating they need to start thinking and acting differently and to be given the freedom to work more flexibly. Of course, the boards were set up by the Welsh Government under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 to improve the well-being of communities, but he said they're unlikely to realise their potential unless changes are introduced. Again, how would you respond to the recommendations made, which included that the Welsh Government should enable public services boards to develop flexible models of working, including merging, reducing and integrating their work with other forums, such as regional partnership boards, and giving them flexibility to receive, manage and spend grant moneys; improving transparency and accountability by making public services board meetings, agendas, papers and minutes accessible and available to the public; and that public services boards and public bodies should use the findings of an earlier auditor general discussion paper on effective scrutiny to strengthen oversight arrangements in activity? I hope you'll agree with me that this ties in with the first question, because effective management at every level would require this sort of change in management approach.

Yes, I would entirely agree with you. There was a good report from the auditor on public services boards, and they're relatively new. They are taken into account in the regional working group that the WLGA has, which I mentioned in response to an earlier question. The WLGA is doing some good work alongside its colleagues in health around how we can spread good practice across the public services boards, how we can reduce duplication where there is some with regional partnership boards, and how those two mechanisms can work more effectively together alongside other regional arrangements. It's a piece of work that I hope will be made public towards Christmas of this year, as we come to a conclusion with the WLGA.

But we have been working along the lines suggested in that report for quite some time, and I do agree with Mark Isherwood that there is a dual question there. It's not just about people management—I don't disagree at all with what he said about appraisal systems—it's also about strategic thinking and leadership arrangements that are put in place for those boards. And so, I think this is a good tool in the armoury, if you like, of the improvement of the public services boards, but it is worth remembering that they haven't been there for all that long, and they are still bedding in. We have seen, as the report says, some very good practice across Wales, and it is just a question of how we spread that out.

The Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services and the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government jointly attended a conference, or an all-day engagement exercise anyway, on the way that public services boards and regional partnership boards work together. And there were some good learning and outcomes from that that we're taking forward as well.

Well, appraisal systems are meant to be a snapshot as part of a performance management system. There should be no surprises in an appraisal system. No employee at any level should be either criticised or praised for something they weren't already involved with. So, I hope you will develop that into performance management, as opposed to just appraisal systems.

But the upshot of all this was perhaps exemplified by an e-mail sent to Assembly Members and Members of Parliament covering or representing Flintshire, in August, from the Flintshire social and healthcare overview and scrutiny committee, after they considered the Welsh Government's continuing healthcare consultations for both children and young people and adults, which is out for consultation. They said that members felt the information and changes detailed in the proposed framework would be detrimental to local authorities across Wales, that the framework is not worded clearly in a fashion that would reduce disputes between health boards and their services, where a number of cases are currently in dispute between the county, and that lack of clarity will further impact on this issue, which will have a considerable impact on staff time and resources. They said the new framework would result in even greater financial pressure, and a number of care packages, currently funded by the local health board or jointly with the local health board, no longer becoming eligible for continuing healthcare funding and becoming the sole responsibility of the health board.

And, finally, they said that the framework continues to be unable to reconcile the use of direct payment, as an individual will not be eligible to use a direct payment to fund primary health needs, leading to a clash in the principle of consistency and control. This goes to the core, not only of local authority working, but of the local partnership boards and the regional partnership boards. And I appreciate you can't comment on the outcome of a consultation, but how will you respond to the wider issues that this particular council committee has evidenced?

Yes, so, as I say, it's early days for the way that these two boards work together. It's early days for the public services boards. And, obviously, the regional partnership boards are even more recent in their inception. I'm not going to comment on the detail of that. We are aware of different practices across Wales, and one of the things that I said in answering your second point was that we are looking for ways of spreading good practice. So, without commenting on the detail there, it is interesting that, in some areas of Wales, they've not been able to do things via those mechanisms, which, it seems, have been perfectly possible elsewhere in Wales to do. So, we need to do some work with the Welsh Local Government Association, and the two Deputy Ministers have taken forward the work on how those two things hold together. And we will be, of course, taking all the learning from scrutiny committees and scrutiny arrangements from around Wales, to take into account that learning.

There is an issue about spreading good practice in Wales and how slowly good practice has travelled. I do want to commend the WLGA on the work it's been doing over the summer on doing that. And, certainly, I can say, Mark Isherwood, that we will be taking into account the scrutiny findings of all of the committees across Wales in considering how to take those two arrangements forward.