The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans, amendments 2, 3, 4, 13, 14 and 15 in the name of Neil McEvoy, and amendments 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Amendment 7 not selected. If amendment 1 is agreed amendments 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 will be deselected.

That brings us to our next debate, the Welsh Conservatives' debate on tackling homelessness. I call on David Melding to move the motion.

Motion NDM7167 Darren Millar

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Recognises that current policies to tackle homelessness and rough sleeping are falling short of what is required.

2. Commends the good practice that is to be found in the sector and welcomes the establishment of the Welsh Government’s Homelessness Action Group.

3. Notes that:

a) there were 25 identified deaths of homeless people in Wales in 2018, a notable increase from the 11 identified deaths in 2017;

b) 25,937 people experienced homelessness across Wales in 2017/18, according to figures by Shelter Cymru;

c) between 2012 and 2017 the number of people sleeping rough in Wales increased by 75 per cent, and the number sleeping in cars, tents and on public transport increased by 50 per cent according to research by Crisis and Heriot-Watt University;

4. Further notes the Welsh Conservatives 10 point action plan to tackle homelessness: ‘More than a Refuge’;

5. Calls on the Welsh Government to appoint a homelessness tsar, ideally someone who has lived experience of homelessness and who can scrutinise the progress towards ending homelessness in Wales.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion in the name of Darren Millar.

At the heart of this motion is the view that rough-sleeping can be ended as a systematic problem affecting the most vulnerable in our society and that building 40,000 more social homes in the 2020s will go a long way to ending homelessness in general. We believe these are now overriding priorities, and that is why we think the Welsh Government should legislate to make housing a basic human right in Wales.

For me, the purpose of today's debate is that we can place this issue at the top of our agenda, and it's in that spirit that I ask Members that they support our motion, along with amendments 5, 11 and 12 by Plaid Cymru, and amendment 13 in the name of Neil McEvoy.

As our motion states, earlier this month, the Welsh Conservatives launched a 10-point plan, 'More than a Refuge', and I gladly make it available to any Member who requests a copy. These 10 points, which, if they were put into action, would make a substantial difference to the housing crisis in Wales.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

This is a challenging area, Dirprwy Lywydd, and that's why I think we need a cross-party approach if we can achieve it. This area—in fact, I think housing in general, but particularly when we're looking at homelessness and rough-sleeping—is not about knockabout politics; it's about those practical measures that can achieve the objectives we all surely desire. And that's why I did try to draft the motion so that it wasn't too partisan and political, but sought instead to change the tone and, indeed, even in referring to 'More than a Refuge', we just say 'notes the action plan', so that those Members here that would find it a step too far to fully endorse Conservative policy don't need to do so. [Laughter.]

We know that there's going to be a difference in approach to how we address these issues in the Chamber, because we all have various ideas about homelessness, housing and rough-sleeping. But, in general, I think we're all going in the same direction and we want to make this a higher priority, and around that, and some other key policies that I do think are deeply consensual now, we can, I think, get much more pace of action into our efforts to tackle this overriding priority.

We are fully aware indeed, Dirprwy Lywydd, that this problem is not confined to Wales alone, and we will be supporting one of Plaid Cymru's amendments that draws attention to the rise in deaths of homeless people in England. That's a perfectly fair thing and balanced thing to do, and it certainly wasn't my intention in drafting the original motion to not pay due regard to that, but I did want to quote the Welsh figure.

But, as I said, we regrettably are failing to encourage a broad consensus on this occasion. In fact, we have one of the horrors of this Chamber: a Government amendment that deletes all. I do think a bit more generosity could have been offered, because I think around our motion could have been constructed an amended motion that we all agreed on. But I do hold out this approach for the future that we should combine and try to agree common approaches, and that's certainly the spirit in which I will be working in the months and years ahead. I do hope, however, that today's debate will be constructive, because I think the sector is frustrated at the lack of change and, certainly, the pace at which we're going. We still have far too many people falling through the cracks in the system, and some of them fall a very long way indeed.

If I can briefly speak to the action plan, Dirprwy Lywydd, as I said, there aren't easy answers to this problem, and we all know that. But we on this side of the Chamber recognise the need to start thinking radically, because, in many ways, since that documentary in the 1960s, and decade in, decade out since, under all administrations, it must be said, we've had a persistent problem with those at the sharper end of the homelessness crisis, and we do need a radical reappraisal of our policy formation and the priorities we put on this area of public policy. And it is true, up and down the United Kingdom, Governments and administrations in the devolved areas, but cities as well around England, of all political make-ups, are struggling to overcome the issue of homelessness in its various forms.

Our strategy has been the product of months of work from meetings with the sector to discuss ways in which our policy decisions could start to transform things for those most in need. I do welcome the contribution so enthusiastically given by our partners in civic society and they've really helped shape our thinking, and I know that they have a big impact on the Government's thinking and, no doubt, on other parties as well, and we should all pay tribute to the amount of policy work that the various charities do in this areas.

On Monday, I was delighted to visit the Pontypridd Home for Veterans, run by Alabaré charity, and that's just one example of an organisation that seems to come up with a really interesting model in terms of the care they provide there for veterans that have fallen on very bad times and get up to two years help in that home, and then they get supported in the succeeding tenancy by outreach workers from that charity, so that critical stage is also taken on board and they're given that help to sustain them in their progress.

Also, I think many of us went down and at least looked at the bikes that the Royal British Legion had in the Senedd to promote the poppy campaign, and I commend those that got on the bike and tried to cycle the 2 km or whatever in virtual reality, but what most interested me this afternoon was the fact that the Royal British Legion were publicising their best-practice guide for local authorities in terms of supporting the armed forces community with housing in Wales, and it's an excellent document, and I do commend it to Members but also to local authorities—the best-practice guide, the toolkit that it provides, and, again, an example of best practice in the voluntary sector.

Now, in the action plan, as I said, we've talked about the need for greater ambition in our social housing programme and the need for better and more comprehensive data collection. That's another key issue so that we can really map out the extent of the problem. We also touch upon the need to change our society's view of homelessness through greater education of the symptoms and the causes, and we also commit to working with our partners in Westminster to scrap the Vagrancy Act 1824, which is outdated, unpractical, and, for all intents and purposes, self-defeating regarding the very issue it was originally designed to prevent—in Georgian Britain, let's not forget.

One of the main outcomes of the work we did—and the discussions we had with the sector came from the likes of Crisis and Shelter Cymru—was that we need a more holistic approach, and, of course, housing first is probably the best example at scale now of a holistic approach, and that is one that we very much commend. It's not good enough to say that housing is simply the answer to homelessness, because it's a problem that spans across agencies, from health to education, housing to employment. So, we really do need a holistic cross-agency approach, and that is why we chose as the title of our policy 'More than a Refuge'. We reflected on the causes of homelessness, which are complex and overlapping, and I was impressed by the auditor general's analysis in his report earlier this year. He said, and I quote, it's 

'much more than putting a roof over people's heads.'

And I think that absolutely does drive to the heart of the problem.

Can I just conclude by saying—? Earlier, I did remark that for 40 to 50 years we've known of this modern scourge in society and we've never quite got to that level of policy response that we really desire, and I think all parties in this Chamber desire. And that's why one of the things we're calling for is a housing tsar—someone that will measure and monitor our progress and hold us accountable for what we're doing, and I think that homelessness tsar should ideally be someone who's had lived experience of homelessness. We've all met people that have been in that situation. They come from all walks of life and we've been really impressed by their skill sets and their potential once they got back into settled accommodation, and I'm sure there's someone in Wales that could be our partner and be an excellent housing tsar, so that we really do start to measure real progress and keep that pace up. So, that person, that tsar, being a champion for the vulnerable would be there urging Government on throughout the 2020s to achieve the targets that I have referred to. 

So, I do conclude by saying to the Government, despite what you've done in moving a 'delete all' amendment, we do want to be genuinely part of the national conversation that now is required, so that we can lead, perhaps, in Britain, in ending the scourge of homelessness in our country. Thank you. 

Thank you. I have selected 14 amendments to the motion. In accordance with Standing Order 12.23, I have not selected amendment 7. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 to 6 will be deselected, and I call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government to move amendment 1, formally, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans

Delete all and replace with:

1. Recognises that there is always more that can be done to tackle homelessness. 

2. Commends the good practice that is to be found in the housing sector in relation to homelessness including the partnership work that supports the delivery of the Welsh Government’s Housing First approach.

3. Welcomes the establishment and the first report of the Welsh Government’s Homelessness Action Group developed in partnership with the sector, including homelessness charities.

4. Notes:

a) That one homeless death is a tragedy.

b) The impact that austerity and welfare reform has had on the numbers of people experiencing homelessness.

5. Further notes the Welsh Government’s Strategy for Preventing and Ending Homelessness and public sector pledge campaign.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally.

Formally. Thank you. Can I call on Neil McEvoy to move amendments 2, 3, 4, 13, 14 and 15, tabled in his name?

Amendment 2—Neil McEvoy

Add as new point after point 1 and renumber accordingly:

Believes that the failure of all Welsh Governments over the past 20 years to resolve homelessness in Wales is a national disgrace.

Amendment 3—Neil McEvoy

Delete point 2.

Amendment 4—Neil McEvoy

Add as new point after point 2 and renumber accordingly:

Believes that duplication of service, inflated salaries amongst senior managers in the third sector, combined with cuts to local government in Wales is making an already bad homelessness situation worse.

Amendment 13—Neil McEvoy

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to declare a homelessness emergency and put forward housing first policies to take people off the streets.

Amendment 14—Neil McEvoy

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to prioritise local need in dealing with homelessness.

Amendment 15—Neil McEvoy

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to instigate a root and branch review of all public money spent in the housing sector in order to tackle homelessness.

Amendments 2, 3, 4, 13, 14 and 15 moved.

Yes. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Housing really is one of the challenges of our time, and it's a challenge that the Welsh Government is failing to meet—failing badly to meet. I remain strongly of the opinion that home ownership is essential for wealth. It's really hard to escape poverty if you don't own a property. So, it's regrettable that Assembly Members here—some of whom own up to three properties with their partners—have voted to stop working-class people even owning just one. And that's exactly the sort of 'do as I say and not do as I do' attitude from the plastic left, and absolutely hypocritical—absolutely.

Also, there's a growing number of people in Wales with no roof over their head at all, and, if people don't believe there is a homeless crisis, then walk through the streets of Cardiff, of Pontypridd, and virtually any town or city in Wales and I'll show you where it is. That's why I've introduced a number of amendments today.

Amendment 2 notes the failure of Welsh Governments to deal with homelessness over the past 20 years, and it's a national disgrace. Amendment 4 recognises that the duplication of service, inflated salaries amongst senior managers in the third sector, combined with cuts to local government, is making an already bad situation worse.

Amendment 13 insists that the Welsh Government should declare a homelessness emergency and put forward housing first policies to take people off the streets, because in Cardiff, for example, that is simply not happening. And the option of floor space in a hostel is deeply unattractive to most homeless people I speak to.

Amendment 14 is an acknowledgement that local need should be prioritised when dealing with homelessness. Amendment 15 calls for the Welsh Government to instigate a root-and-branch review of all public money spent in housing and spent dealing with homelessness because, let's be honest, the outlandish and huge salaries of chief executives in the third sector—. There's an astonishing array of organisations where people are earning huge amounts of money that I don't believe they would get in the private sector. And, to be perfectly frank, it's not in the interests of those people to solve the housing and homelessness crisis, because they're doing too well with the situation as it is.

I hope you can support these amendments today and I hope that this institution, ideally through a Government, can bring an end to the homeless crisis and housing crisis that we have in Wales, because that is the job of us elected here. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Can I call on Leanne Wood to move amendments 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth?

Amendment 5—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Insert as new sub-point at end of point 3:

'these trends have been noted in England, which has also experienced a rise in the number of deaths of rough sleepers.'

Amendment 6—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Delete points 4 and 5.

Amendment 8—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Recognises that the UK Government’s cuts to social security have contributed towards the increase in homelessness, as was predicted to happen by the sector.

Amendment 9—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Regrets that priority need wasn’t phased out in favour of a general duty to secure safe accommodation during the Housing (Wales) Act 2014, and believes this was a missed opportunity.

Amendment 10—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the UK Government to adopt the recommendations of the Crisis report on ending homelessness that apply to non-devolved policy areas, and calls on the Welsh Government to implement the recommendations of the crisis report that apply to its areas of responsibility.

Amendment 11—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Ensure that the Vagrancy Act 1824 is operationally disapplied in all police force areas in Wales in order to avoid criminalising homeless people for rough-sleeping and begging.

Amendment 12—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

As well as providing housing, calls on the Welsh Government to also ensure proper service provision for people at risk of homelessness, such as people with mental health problems, learning disabilities, problematic substance users, people with ADHD and neurodevelopmental disorders, prisoners, veterans, childhood sexual abuse and domestic abuse survivors and those with adverse childhood experiences.  

Amendments 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to be taking part in this debate, which, I have to say, is an unusual one for the party that's tabled it, and I'm left wondering if they'll be publishing a policy pamphlet setting out how to fix the problems of universal credit next month.

We've tabled a number of amendments to this motion, some of which seek to place the crisis of homelessness in the proper context of social security cuts and wider austerity that has eliminated many of the services that previously provided a safety net. But I want to focus mainly on two of the amendments that we've tabled this afternoon. The first is amendment 12, calling on the Welsh Government to ensure proper service provision for people most at risk of homelessness. And I'd like to draw the attention of Members to the recent investigation by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism that has found that 32,000 households in Wales and England have been abandoned by local authorities because of, often, minor mistakes in the application process—mistakes as minor as missing an e-mail, or not responding to an undelivered letter. Applicants in this position are being classed as unco-operative, and therefore they have any support withdrawn or not provided. Now, anyone who's worked in the sector knows how gate keeping can be a huge problem—that, despite all the laws and the funding for services in place, a local authority officer can ignore these and deny a person support for reasons that include prejudice and a lack of understanding. I know the Minister is going to point to recent guidance issued to housing professionals on helping people with autism spectrum disorder, which identifies how people with ASD have been labelled as unco-operative. But more than this needs to be done, and, for a start, we have to ensure that the advice services are properly funded.

But we have to be honest. We need more understanding from officials and this form of negative, judgmental and punitive gate keeping has to be considered as gross misconduct. I wonder whether Boris Johnson had the universal credit rules in mind when he refused to sign the letter asking for an extension to the Brexit deadline; I wonder whether he was assuming that the EU would regard it in the same way as the Department for Work and Pensions regard an application for universal credit and turn it down on the grounds that it wasn't signed. 

Amendment 11 asks the Welsh Government to join us in campaigning for the abolition of the Vagrancy Act. It cannot be justified that we criminalise poverty, and, instead of using the criminal justice system in this manner, Plaid Cymru would prefer to support people. So, I'd like to ask the Minister: would you be prepared to instruct your own police and crime commissioners to do what Plaid Cymru police and crime commissioners have done and support the revocation of the Vagrancy Act and for the police not to use those powers? I would imagine that there are some Tories who may well now be regretting the creation of those political police and crime commissioner posts now that they are undermining Tory policy.

Now, to conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, it's important that we realise that ending homelessness is within our grasp and to not do so is a political choice. Crisis produced a comprehensive report showing us how to end homelessness last year, and it contains clear recommendations for the Welsh Government, which include legislative changes. So, my message is this: we have to stop talking now and we must get on with implementing those recommendations in full. Diolch.

I genuinely think it was interesting to hear from Leanne about the experiences of individuals who are being refused successful applications on the basis of minor amendments. These are the sorts of things that really affect policy more widely, and where we try and distinguish between the difference between good ideas— hopefully across party—and the delivery of good ideas badly.

I was actually heartened to hear from the First Minister last week that he'd read our 10-point plan and had no sense at all of not being willing to take good ideas from wherever they come and that he felt that housing is an issue that is largely shared across the floor of this Assembly as a priority for the people we represent. And, actually, I do think that's true. It doesn't mean that we can't scrutinise apparent failures of policy. I think the figures in the motion suggest that the 2014 housing Act hasn't really had the effect that might have been hoped for. But, without a statutory right to housing, as we ask for, I think it's a big ask for any legislation to solve the problems of homelessness, not least because of the operational delivery problems that you've spoken of, Leanne.

Will you take an intervention?

If I'm given time, yes, thank you.

I really laud you for trying to come up with good policy ideas on this, but do you accept that we have to tackle the causes of homelessness? And one of the key causes of homelessness is the benefits system. What are you doing to have conversations with your counterparts in Government in Westminster to change some of those punitive, really cruel policies that are resulting in people living on the streets?

Okay, well, I'll come on to that in a little bit, but as you remember—I think you heard from my colleague Angela Burns not so very long ago about some of the views we hold on universal credit, the timing of it and some concerns regarding the five-week delay at the beginning of it. But, of course, this is not devolved and there's only a certain amount of work that we can do on that directly ourselves.

Can I just go back to where I started, about this issue of legislation and the problem of homelessness? Because if we are going to be introducing a statutory right to this, I personally don't have much patience with statute being used for symbolic gestures, and if the Minister can be persuaded to go down this route—which I hope she will, actually—that she will urge considering the mechanisms for enforcing any rights and offering remedies for failure.

I think a post-legislative review of the Act would be very welcome now. We agree, as you heard, with Housing First prioritising the finding of accommodation, but I'm not 100 per cent sure that the wraparound support is following, and I hope that you will note our commitment to the Supporting People funding.

Minister—I think I've raised this with you before—vulnerable people from Neath Port Talbot have recently been housed in Swansea, and both the police and residents have told me that that does not come without its problems. The city already has its county lines and drug problems, including cuckooing, and this is in the social as well as the private rented sector.

It's not the focus of this motion, but I think the private rented sector can and should contribute to relieving homelessness. We may need 40,000 new social sector homes, but that would take 10 years, even under a Welsh Conservative Government, so I think the private sector should also be an active agent of providing good-quality housing as well as being good partners. In Swansea, the Wallich and Dawsons estate agents have helped clients who had experienced homelessness find sustainable accommodation by offering guarantees instead of cash bonds to landlords, together with support through benefit delays and rent arrears, for example.

It's worth mentioning that insecure tenure is not the main driver of people leaving private rented accommodation. Most tenancies are ended by the tenant, but, even so, when the landlord ends the tenancy, the main reason is rent arrears, and changes in the benefit system are often behind that. I'm not trying to avoid that, as I hope I've made plain, but, if we say this is just about benefits, or even low pay, we lose sight of the drink and drugs misuse and the mental health problems of so many who, without those challenges, Leanne, would be better able to manage their finances, however difficult. We lose sight of those in flight from violence, from being thrown out of their family home, those going missing from care, and even something, as we heard from Jack Sergeant, as simple, but as personally devastating, as not being able to keep your pet with you.

And so I turn to point 6 of our action plan, education. Welsh Government was wrong not to support Bethan Sayed's backbench Bill on financial inclusion. As I'm sure we'll hear more of in this debate, homelessness isn't always what we think it is, and it could happen to anyone. Managing money and developing resilience against shock are things we learn, and that is as much about personal experience and mental health as it is about intelligence or comparative poverty. There is space for this in the new curriculum areas of learning and experience. Homelessness exists everywhere, as Neil has said, and there will be no shortage of Cynefin material to provide this localised content. In fact, Swansea council has already committed to developing an education programme with young people, co-produced, to improve their homelessness prevention.

So, data collection—if you'll allow me this, Deputy Presiding Officer—this is not just about homelessness, I think. What is it that is useful to collect by way of data? Let's just take the settled BME community as one example. Once over-represented in social housing applications, it's now the opposite. And I'm not talking about refugees and asylum seekers here, but families established in Wales, Welsh families whose homelessness risk factors are familiar—relationship breakdown, unmet support needs, lack of independent living—but there can be additional factors such as overcrowding, being housed in an area where you face racist abuse or discrimination, where there are no other residents who speak your home language, you may be too far from your place of worship, your support system, and where lack of visibility of housing support will drive you towards low-quality private housing, so you don't appear in the housing statistics.

Finally, Swansea Homeless Sanctuary faces closure because it's £900 in the red: such a small amount for something that can make such a big difference, and the same applies to Supporting People funding. Please keep it and ring-fence it for three years, Minister, or we will be asking the people of Wales to ask us to do it. Thank you.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I very much welcome the opportunity to discuss this very important issue and the tone in which it's been discussed so far. Homelessness is complicated and is caused by a number of different events. Whilst people often equate homelessness with rough-sleeping, rough-sleeping is just one form of homelessness, albeit the most visible and probably the most dangerous. We know that many more homeless people sleep on sofas and floors of friends and family or are in temporary accommodation, or live in overcrowded conditions, sometimes with two families living in a two-bedroomed house. When the choice is living in overcrowded accommodation or living on the streets, it's easy to see why people choose the overcrowded accommodation for themselves relative to a friend's, and you can understand why people make room for people where they haven't actually got it, so they don't end up sleeping on the street.

Homelessness is devastating. It's driven by high rents and low income, lack of affordable housing, people not receiving the support they need when they need it, and this includes benefits. The most important thing is to stop people becoming homeless in the first place by early intervention, and the Welsh Government are committed to that, and we passed an Act a couple of years ago talking about early intervention. Prevention will stop people from becoming homeless in the first place. People need to intervene when homelessness is threatened, not wait for the day before they've been moved out, or in some cases the day that they're being moved out. Now, local authorities have got the power and the duty to do it, but we need to ensure that every local authority uses that power and that duty in order to ensure that people don't end up homeless. Sometimes, early intervention can keep people in the home they're currently in, providing support at this stage rather than waiting for people to become homeless, emergency response, providing emergency supports like shelter, food and day programmes while someone is homeless.

We need housing, accommodation and support—the provision of housing and ongoing support as a means of moving people out of homelessness. For some homeless people, providing a house or flat will not solve their problems. They have other problems. They need the housing-related support and supported living services that help people to live as independently as they can, or move on to independent living. Many different groups of people benefit from these services.

There are many providers in Wales who provide housing-related support and supported living services, but it wouldn't be me if I didn't mention the ones in Swansea. There is also good work done by The Wallich, including their cross-border women’s project in Birchgrove, Swansea, which I urge people to visit if they're in the area, and also Dinas Fechan, a 15-bedroom hostel providing shelter and support to single homeless people. The hostel provides accommodation and support to people with a variety of support needs, including mental health issues, learning difficulties, offending behaviour or substance misuse. All residents meet regularly with their support worker, who will offer personal development work, access to appropriate services and advice on seeking permanent accommodation. Each resident has their own living space and shared communal living rooms. All these good works are important, but we wish for everyone to be adequately housed. Appointing a homelessness tsar, ideally someone who has lived experience and who can scrutinise the progress towards ending homelessness in Wales, will not end homelessness. 

We need to build more council houses. I know I bang on about this again all the time, but the only time since the second world war when we didn't have a housing crisis was when we were building council housing at scale. That's what we need to do—go back to building council housing at scale. We've got demand that is not being met. We can change who we give priority to and how to move it round, but the reality is that unless we've got adequate housing, we just decide that different people are going to be housed. It's important that we get sufficient housing available, and we've got a huge problem of the lack of council housing, and that's got to be built. We need to go back to building at scale. If we look back to the 1950s and 1960s, when we had Labour and Conservative Governments at Westminster who, at election time, campaigned to see who was going to build the most council houses. People like Harold Macmillan would probably find Boris Johnson's Government a very difficult place to be. They were really interested in getting council housing. We need that.

We also need to get empty housing and flats back into use. Every one of us can wander round our own constituencies and see that these are houses, many in sought-after areas, that have just been left, and we need to get those back into use. I know Manselton in my constituency is a really sought-after area of good-quality terraced houses, but you can wander round most streets and find one or more houses that have been left empty. This is just a waste of resources, and it really is to the disadvantage of homeless people. We need to get more council houses and the empty houses and flats back into use so people aren't homeless anymore.

As our motion states, current policies to tackle homelessness and rough-sleeping are falling short of what is required. But none of this is new. Homelessness figures doubled during the first Assembly term, between 1999 and 2003. The then Welsh Assembly Government introduced non-statutory homelessness prevention measures during the second Assembly term to tackle this. Homelessness figures fell, but the sector reported that hidden homelessness doubled. As I stated here in 2007 during the debate on the social justice committee’s report on youth homelessness in Wales,

'Voluntary organisations state that hidden homelessness could double the Assembly Government’s homelessness figures. When we met a group of homeless young people in Old Colwyn, they told us that there was a massive shortage of affordable accommodation, and asked, "Where are we to go?"'.

That was 2007. As the young people in north Wales told us then, mediation and early intervention are needed at an earlier stage—we need to go into schools and work with families before people become homeless.

Several voluntary organisations, including Shelter Cymru, expressed concern then that many homeless or potentially homeless people were not being included in the homeless statistics. The committee then learned of increasing numbers of homeless applicants being deemed intentionally homeless then. My conclusion to that speech included,

‘The Assembly Government must review its policy for care leavers, address the problems of homelessness in rural areas, and work with the Department for Work and Pensions to address the anomalies in the benefits system that penalise homeless people’, in 2007.

Although bricks and mortar will not alone solve the problem, it will not be solved without an ambitious house building programme. In 1999, when Labour first came to power here, there was no housing supply crisis in Wales, but they slashed the social housing grant and cut the supply of new affordable homes by 71 per cent during their first three terms. During the second Assembly, the housing sector came together to warn the Welsh Government there would be a housing crisis if they didn’t listen—but they didn’t listen.

Jump forward, the latest available annualised figures for Wales show falls in new dwellings started, private sector completions, local authority completions and new affordable housing units. Although the latest published quarterly National House Building Council figures show the highest number of new UK homes registered for 12 years, up 12 per cent on the same period last year and up 14 per cent in England, they were only up 3 per cent in Wales. Only 3 per cent of these new homes registered were in Wales, despite having 5 per cent of the UK population and despite the scale of Labour’s homegrown housing crisis here.

Evidence on rough-sleeping to the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee last week from Dr Helen Taylor, Cardiff Metropolitan University, quoted evidence from respondents,

‘that just making someone a priority would not address the issues they are experiencing’.

One stated,

‘Itwon’t solve the problems by giving them somewhere to live, by giving them help; they have to want to do it.’

Respondents highlighted the relationship between homelessness legislation and the provision of other services, such as substance misuse services. Yet successive Welsh Governments have ignored the need for residential detoxification and rehabilitation services in Wales identified in successive independent reports, warning then that this was contributing, for example, to the homeless population and the prison population .

As the guide published on Monday to help housing professionals support autistic people stated, autistic people have consistently identified challenges in seeking appropriate housing services, help and support due to a lack of understanding of the condition and their individual needs. I get casework like that every day, still.

August’s 'End Youth Homelessness' report on LGBTQ+ youth homelessness recommended,

'that Welsh Government support the trial of an Upstream-style service, whereby schools work with youth homelessness specialists to identify young people at risk of homelessness.'

Déjà vu—remember that from 2007? At last week’s joint meeting of the cross-party groups on housing and on violence against women and children, we heard that housing and homelessness services are central to survivors of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and that priority need should include all forms of these. Déjà vu again.

In north Wales, young people have created Youth Shedz. When I visited this Grŵp Cynefin project in Denbigh, the young people told me that this provided a safe space for them to develop and prepare themselves for independent living. At the September 2017 Digartref Ynys Môn and Bangor University event here, we heard homeless young people themselves say that young people living in supported accommodation could have a host of issues to deal with and may struggle with this alongside studying.

I therefore urge support for our motion, which rightly commends the good practice found in the housing sector and notes the Welsh Conservatives' 10-point plan to tackle homelessness, ‘More than a Refuge’. We've waited too long already.

I thank David Melding for bringing forward this debate and for publishing his 10-point plan for tackling homelessness. I support any moves to improve the way we tackle homelessness and will work positively with any Government to ensure no person is left without the most basic human right of all: the right to a roof over each and every person's head, and a suitable one at that.

It's a right that has not been able to be resolved by 20 years of Welsh Labour Government. The answer is complex and requires significant forward planning. But, there again, UK Governments have also been unable to offer a solution. And whilst we can all cast a stone and play political football, it would serve no purpose. This is too serious an issue and we need positive change. We need for the UK Government and the Welsh Government to work positively together to bring about this change and to eradicate homelessness in the twenty-first century.

Looking at the housing crisis, the move to universal credit has played a negative part in homelessness. There are high numbers of veterans and ex-offenders sleeping rough because it can take up to five weeks or more to receive any benefit payments. The UK Government, whilst they were right to crack down on people cheating the system, their implementation was flawed and hurt those in genuine need. The needs of people who are homeless are many, complex and varied. It is not simply, 'A home and that is the end of it.' It is not. Again, I urge the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government to ensure that benefit payments begin the day someone is discharged from the armed forces or released from prison custody.

The massive rise we have seen in homelessness has to be tackled head on, and I therefore commend the Welsh Conservatives for their action plan, in the hope that it will help the Welsh Government adopt more ambitious plans of their own. Doubling the number of social housing being built is a good start.

I also welcome appointing someone who has been homeless to advise Ministers on housing policy. The Welsh Government has to admit their approach isn't working, and having a homelessness person to help them would help revitalise their efforts to end homelessness, as would adopting many of the proposals before them today. So, I urge Members to reject the Welsh Government’s amendment. Yes, there is good practice, but it does exist in small pockets around the country and is not nationwide.

We will be supporting most of the other amendments, which we feel add to the Conservatives' motion, but we will be opposing amendments 3, 6 and 9. With regard to amendment 11, I totally agree that the Vagrancy Act should be repealed. It should not be used to remove rough-sleepers, as was the case in Neath when the Labour-run council sought to remove visible signs of homelessness. But, that said, we do however need to tackle problem begging. We need new legislation passed by Parliament—which, given its dysfunctional current state, is unlikely anytime soon—to tackle problem begging. It's a sad fact that fewer than one in five people tackled for begging were homeless. Sadly, organised crime groups are preying on people's charity and taking vital funds from those in genuine need.

There is a cross-party desire to end rough-sleeping, and I ask if the Welsh Government has the vision and ambition to achieve the aim, because it requires working together. And when we work together, we can all put an end to this national disgrace, as Neil McEvoy so succinctly says it.

Everyone has a fundamental right to housing. People have the right to a safe, secure, habitable and affordable home with freedom from forced eviction. It is the obligation of Government to guarantee that everyone can exercise their right to live in secure, peaceful and dignified place. It is a matter of concern, therefore, that recent housing statistics reveal a downturn in house building in Wales. The number of new dwellings started in the second quarter of this year is 7 per cent less than a year earlier. In addition, the number of households in Wales threatened with homelessness has increased.

Rough-sleeping is the most visible form of homelessness. We live in one of the most advanced and successful countries in the world—as a matter of fact, the fifth richest—and look at this, people still living on the streets and under the motorways, which is totally unacceptable. The fact that we still have people without a home and sleeping rough on our streets is a shame to us all. In our towns and cities, the sight of tents appearing on roundabouts and grass banks and roadsides is all too common these days. Last year, local authorities in Wales counted 158 people sleeping rough across Wales. However, the method used in making this count has been widely criticised. Shelter Cymru called it outdated with Denbighshire council reporting only one rough-sleeper.

Historically, homelessness services for rough-sleepers have been provided by hostels, yet many rough-sleepers choose not to use hostels. The reasons they give include overwhelming drug, alcohol and violence issues. Homeless people have often accumulated serious mental health and addiction problems while living on the streets. All these factors combine to make hostels an unattractive option. I have called in the past, in this Chamber, for innovative solutions to be found to get homeless people off the streets. In Newport, the charity Amazing Grace Spaces opened sleeping pods to provide safe temporary shelters. In response to my question, welcoming this, the First Minister said:

'innovative solutions may help in the here and now, a long-term answer to tackling the housing problems that we face across the nation are more permanent homes'.

I agree with this quote, Presiding Officer. We need to meet the complex needs of people who find themselves sleeping on our streets. We need bold and urgent action. We need a strategy that prevents rough-sleeping before it happens, a strategy that intervenes at all crisis points and helps people to recover, with flexible support that meets their needs. That is why I welcome my colleague David Melding's strategy document, 'More than a Refuge'. Thank you very much, David; well done. This document puts the issue of homelessness and rough-sleeping at the forefront of our political priorities. It commits us to the ambitious targets of ending rough-sleeping in Wales by 2026. A nationwide taskforce will undertake an extensive programme to uncover the full extent of homelessness in Wales. The problems associated with hostels would be addressed by a review into emergency and temporary accommodation. This would lead to the setting of a target for providing long-term housing solutions. The Royal British Legion estimates that there are 6,000 homeless veterans in the United Kingdom. This strategy calls for 150 empty social housing properties to be brought back, which was just mentioned by our colleague, back into use specifically for military veterans at risk of homelessness, and it calls for the appointment of a homeless tsar to co-ordinate policy development and delivery.

Deputy Presiding Officer, this report has been welcomed by many housing charities and organisations. If we work together across the Assembly, we can eradicate rough-sleeping and prevent homelessness in Wales; we can give people the opportunity to access safe and secure homes and provide a solid foundation to improve their quality of life. I personally met some of the homeless people in Newport and everybody had a different story to tell. I think I need another half an hour to tell my colleagues, but I've got only a few seconds. But, believe me, nobody—nobody—wants to live on those rough streets, they need safe, secure and protected homes where they can live their lives peacefully and they can contribute to the community, because there's a sad story to tell about every one of the 158 homeless people in this country and as I said earlier, it's a shame to us. We must do something and it's about time; we have to do it now. Thank you.

I must say, in my experience, the public believe that, in the fifth or sixth biggest economy in the world, it's a terrible indictment of the UK that so many people are sleeping rough and at risk of homelessness. People see it as morally indefensible, and indeed it is. I don't think we can get away from the background of UK Government austerity over something like a 10-year period in terms of the background to that situation, because the cuts to public services year on year and the cumulative effect have put those services in a state where it's increasingly difficult for them, more and more difficult for them, to provide the support that is necessary. I do believe we have to recognise that, and also recognise the effect of universal credit. In the work that the equality committee has done around homelessness and rough-sleeping we've heard about the very direct and practical effect of universal credit and how that has made these problems worse. The initial waiting periods to claim benefit, the inability of the housing benefit element to be paid direct to the tenant, and many other aspects have increased the problems of homelessness and rough-sleeping.

I will take an intervention.

Thank you, John Griffiths, very much for taking an intervention. I don't disagree with a lot of your analysis there, but I would like to make the point that 40 years ago, when I lived in London, I used to go out Wednesday night and Saturday night for about three years with various organisations working with homeless people on the streets of London. They were there then, they are there now, and that's the real shame. It's not a consequence of the last decade; it is a consequence of our society not dealing with a deep-rooted problem that's been in existence for the 40 years that I used to work with them.

None of us would say that the problems haven't existed over—[Interruption.]

Thank you. There's no need for that. We're trying to have this in a spirit of cross-party, cross-bench consensus. I'm just going to say: can we just carry on in the same vein as this has gone? There's fault on all sides occasionally, so just let's think about it.

Okay. I don't think any of us would deny that there are long-standing problems. Many of us would look to the experience of the Thatcher Governments over a period of time—you know, the sale of council houses without the ability to use the proceeds to build new council housing, the concentration on private purchase. We know now, for example, that the constant pressure of low wages and high rent in the private rented sector—and this is through some of the work that Crisis has commissioned in terms of the position in Wales at the moment—has resulted in 82 per cent of the areas in Wales having less than one in five single people or couples or families with one or two children being able to afford a private rented sector property. Eighty-two per cent of areas in Wales, less than one in five being able to afford properties in the private rented sector if they're in those categories. That's the sort of situation we're in at the moment. I do believe that universal credit needs to be addressed, and indeed the committee that I chair, the equality committee, is doing work on that, and I hope we can get to a better position in Wales in fairly short order.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I've said what I've said in my opening remarks, but I do nonetheless welcome the initiative by the Welsh Conservatives with the action plan and bringing this debate to the Assembly today. I think the human rights approach is very interesting, and the recognition of the level of support that is necessary, and of course we do need to build many more social housing properties, and I think that's been widely recognised as well. But we do have to look at the wider picture as well, and there are many other factors that come into play.

The committee that I chair has done a lot of work on rough-sleeping and homelessness. We know that Housing First is extremely important and I welcome the Welsh Government's pilot schemes. It's about having a high level of support for people with complex needs and making sure that that's in place and that the housing that's provided is appropriate and adequate. We know that assertive outreach has to be a stronger feature of what's delivered on our streets. I've been out with the Wallich; others talked about the Wallich as well. They do some amazing work, and that needs to be strengthened and further developed.

I do believe that, yes, there are areas where Welsh Government has made changes that have been counterproductive, and I would refer to prisoners in that regard. I do believe legislative change around housing did create difficulties, and the pathway that was put in in place of priority need for prisoners hasn’t worked effectively. It does need change. I know change has taken place, but further change is needed. Yes, Welsh Government has a responsibility here, and we need to make sure that the mental health services join up with the substance misuse services much more effectively. There are real barriers there that need to be overcome.

I very much welcome the Crisis report, Dirprwy Lywydd, I think it is very much on a footing with the work that my committee has done. So, I welcome the involvement the Welsh Government has made for Crisis in the work that they’ve done and in the action group.

And just finally, we do need a long-term approach, and I think everybody’s talked about that. We need to be much more preventative. But I nonetheless welcome the focus of the action group of Welsh Government and Crisis in talking about this winter. Every winter there are deaths among rough-sleepers. It is an absolute crisis at winter time. There is a joined-up response from the third sector, from churches, from local government, from agencies, but it’s a massive challenge and we have to be alive to that challenge this winter, before we get to a better long-term solution.

I welcome this debate. It’s hard out there when you've got nobody. I stand here today as a mum to a serving soldier in the British army and as someone who was homeless for short time as a young 15-year-old person. Due to a really bad home life, I needed somewhere to stay, so I lived in a caravan with friends in return for odd jobs with a travelling fair. Six week later, when I was assaulted and almost raped, I had no choice but to return home to further assaults from my stepmother. That went on and on. I was going round in circles for years. I didn't know where to turn, so I think I was what we call today a 'sofa surfer'. I felt under pressure, without foundations, very insecure and totally worthless. But due to my home situation, this appeared to be the best choice open to me at that point.

That experience has driven many of my decisions in life: to work hard, to support myself, and to keep a roof over my head and the heads of my children, beholden to nobody. My son is still a serving soldier and has seen active service, including various tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it is the thought of veterans in particular that has motivated me to speak today.

I know that the causes of homelessness are many, varied and complex, and that each person will have a different story to the next. Wales though is a very small nation with very complex layers of public and support services. Where do you go? Where do you start? I do know that there are pockets of good practice. Housing First, for example, has been identified, I believe, as best practice some years ago and it makes perfect sense to truly support someone to be able to manage their tenancy, rather than simply handing them the keys and leaving them to it. That’s a recipe for failure. So, I don't understand why Housing First and indeed any other area of good practice is not now rolled out across the whole of Wales. Sleep pods appear to have been ignored and discounted, and also container homes—flexible and moveable—appear not to have really taken off. I don't know why. 

I know that there is an action group advising the Minister. I welcome this, but Welsh Labour has had 20 years and more to do something, achieve something, horizon-scan and study demographics and population change. I'm deeply concerned that we appear to have sleepwalked into this current crisis where our people are literally dying on our streets. Action plans, action groups, strategies are lovely, but we are not seeing the results we would hope for for that young person or that veteran who really does need that support. And it looks like nobody’s listening, because they're all looking down at the computers and really not listening. This is reality out there, and none of you have been through that kind of stuff, so you really should listen. [Interruption.]

My view is that no party has a monopoly on good ideas and I welcome this thoughtful report by the Conservatives. But I would say that 'busy' does not mean effective, and it's time to really make a difference in this area. People need hope, people need safety, they need stability. And all people need a home.

Can I now call the Minister for Housing and Local Government, Julie James?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to start off by welcoming David Melding's first remarks about working across the Chamber, and to echo the First Minister's welcome of good ideas from any source, and echo them. So, I think there is much to be commended in the Conservatives' plan, and also, actually, in Plaid Cymru's plan. And I think we do have some shared agendas across the Chamber, and I'd very much like to work with people to discover how we can take our shared agenda forward. But I do also want to say that I am always quite astonished by people's complete lack of comprehension about the problems created by poverty and, in particular, by universal credit roll-out and other things.

So, let me just tell you one of them, so if you're really concerned, you can join Crisis's campaign on this. The local housing allowance has been zero rated since 2016—for four years. So, the result of that is that if you're in the private rented sector and you're on universal credit, you are paying the difference between the local housing allowance and the rent in that sector. That is driving homelessness. That is a direct Conservative Party policy. I don't know what's going to happen next year, but if you have any influence on that, please try to bring it to bear, because we have written repeatedly to say that, clearly, this is driving people out of the private rented sector—and you're absolutely right, we need to build more social housing and you're absolutely right, we're going as fast as possible since the Conservative Government saw sense and took the caps off, only at the end of last year. All this talk about 20 years—we have not been allowed to do it until last year. Now we are allowed to do it, we are doing it at pace and scale. You're helping us with that—you share that agenda, I know. But we also need to make sure that people in the private rented sector can afford their rents, and at the moment they cannot. So, if you want to do something, do that.

Will you take an intervention?

Certainly. 

Do you have anything to say about numbers? I know that there—of course there was homelessness 40 years ago, and it would have been more prevalent in London—of course. But the actual numbers of people that you can see sleeping on the streets now is much greater than anything I've ever experienced before, and I think it's down to the reasons that you've described there. Do you have any evidence to suggest that the volume of homelessness is a much bigger problem than it was, say, 40 years ago?

Yes, we do have some evidence. The numbers are problematic, because we do them in spot checks and we do them in rough-sleep accounts. And we know, for example, that it's very difficult to get women in rough-sleep accounts. We know that because they tend to walk all night and sleep in the day because it's safer and so on. So, the numbers are problematic. We do have data. We have got preventative measures here in Wales that have, I think, stemmed the flow a little, but you are fighting a rising tide.

Deputy Presiding Officer, this is not the first time I've spoken about homelessness in this Chamber in this term. It's only two weeks since I made by statement, so I'm not going to repeat some of those things. But we have to stem the tide as well as address the issues at the sharp end. And we have to do both of those things or we will continue to see the pressure of people falling out of suitable accommodation. But that single thing, if you want to really do something—change the local housing allowance element of universal credit and you will certainly turn off one of those taps.

So, we are working very hard with the levers we do have in our control. We're investing over £20 million this year alone in increasing our housing supply. And unlike the UK Government, we have never moved away from supporting the delivery of social housing. I could not agree with my colleague Mike Hedges more: the building of council housing is the only way forward out of this. So, we have taken significant strides forward in embedding that preventative approach and in increasing our supplies. [Interruption.] Certainly, Mark.

You say you've never cut social housing, and I take it you're referring to this Government, because your own Government statistics will prove that they were reduced massively in the first three Assembly terms and flatlined thereafter. The social housing grant was still building social houses through registered social landlords, and by the time the Conservative Government left power in 1997 in London, the rate of replacement for those sold were almost on a par—it crashed after 1997 and crashed even further after 1999. Look at the figures.

I have looked at the figures, and you are, very neatly, avoiding the point that your Government has repeatedly refused to allow council houses to be built using the proceeds of the sale of council houses. [Interruption.] You diminished the supply. I was also in London 40 years ago—40 years ago was when the Thatcher Government came in and decimated the supply of social housing. So, there is much that we can agree on in this Chamber, but there are some fundamentals we will never agree on, and one of them is that, if you decimate the supply of social housing, you get homelessness. And that is what we are currently seeing.

We published a strategic policy statement only two weeks ago, recognising the need to look afresh at our approach. The strategy is focused completely on the prevention of homelessness and, in those rare circumstances where it can't be prevented, to minimise the damage it causes, focusing on rapid rehousing, ensuring homelessness is rare, brief and unrepeated. The approach does seek to support those currently experiencing homelessness into long-term, secure accommodation, whilst significantly reducing the flow into homelessness at the same time. Many Members in this Chamber have made this point: they've made the point about Housing First, which we are embracing. We're investing £1.6 million this year in our pilot projects. To be clear: Housing First is not a silver bullet; it's one aspect of a rapid rehousing approach. We need to take a whole-system approach if we're to shift our model of service delivery. And legislation must be seen as the last line of defence in preventing homelessness, not the first.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I will also say this to our local authority colleagues: the 56-day point is not a target, it's a backstop. I do not want to see local authorities telling me that they have managed to meet their obligations because people have been looked at at 56 days when they could have been looked at at 63 days, 110 days, or whatever it is. So, I agree completely with Leanne Wood. This is about changing hearts and mind inside the system administration. And in order to do that, and in response to the action group's report, I have spoken, or my officials have spoken, with all the council leaders and chief executives of the four big cities in Wales where the pinch points are—I'm sorry to use that term, but where the bulk of homeless people arrive. Because that's where services are and that's often where they can get some of the support that they need. And we have spoken to them about shifting the model inside those cities this winter, in response to the action group's recommendations, which we've accepted in full. And all of them, I'm very pleased to say, have embraced that wholeheartedly. We have now got assertive outreach training going on in all of those areas and then right across public services in Wales, alongside colleagues in health, social care and so on. And we will be working towards having a policy where we do not have any eviction or discharge into homelessness from any public service in Wales, as rapidly as we can shift the service to that line. So, I make no excuse for shifting that. We have to do something very quickly.

The action group has recommended that we look afresh at our approach, and I should also say, because many people have mentioned them, that we have particular pathways for veterans and people leaving prison. We are working specifically with task and finish groups on those pathways to see where they work, why they work, or, where they don't work, why they don't work, and pick that up. And, in particular, I've got a task and finish group working with Cardiff prison, Cardiff Council and my officials, looking to make sure that we don't have rotating people coming out of Cardiff prison onto the streets of Cardiff. Once we've got that sorted, we will roll it out across Wales. So, we are going with some pace to try to sort this out, I think.

I also completely agree with the disapplication of the Vagrancy Act. I've said this in a number of contributions in the Chamber this term, Deputy Presiding Officer, so I won't go through it again, as I've made our position very clear there. We're also taking legal advice on whether we can disapply any sections of it legally, but we're also working on voluntary agreements across Wales to make sure that councils and police forces step up to that plate. I'm also working with my colleague Lee Waters on a number of initiatives around bringing empty properties back into use across a number of council areas, and Mike Hedges will be delighted to know that Swansea's one of them. So, I'm very happy to do that.

So, I'm going to wrap up by saying this: look, I completely agree that we need a cross-Chamber embracing of where we can agree, and there is much we do agree about. So, I think we can do that. The things that we can't agree about, we can put to one side. I'm happy to pick up good ideas from across the Chamber, but also from across public services and sectors. So, I'm going to finish with this, Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on everyone here and all public service leaders across Wales to pledge to work in line with our policy principles to end homelessness. You'll have had the opportunity to read the strategic policy statement, the report from the action group and our response to that. We've also had loads of opportunities in Plenary and committee in the last few weeks to discuss this issue. Now we can turn those words into actions. We're entering a critical time of year for deaths on the street. I don't think the figures are accurate that we have, but any death is a death too many—let's be clear. Homeless people die in their 40s, slightly younger for women than for men—but in their 40s. It's appalling. So, we must do something about it because, here in Wales, together, we can and will end homelessness. Diolch.

Thank you. Can I call on David Melding to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Could I thank all Members who've taken part in a very vigorous and, I think, constructive debate overall—some sharp edges; given the nature of the subject, that's probably entirely appropriate. Let me rattle through some of the contributions.

Neil started with a walk through the streets of Cardiff, and I think that's a very evocative and appropriate way to start. I think the third sector are vital partners coming up with some good solutions. I don't have great sympathy with your remarks on that side of things, but I did think that tone of reminding us, really, of our own capital city was important.

Leanne, I didn't mention uncooperativeness, which I should have, actually, in my speech. So, I think you did put your finger there on a real policy challenge and flaw in the current housing legislation, and all the groups tell us that. I do agree that it is the housing shortage, however that's come about, that has driven a lot of the challenges we face in terms of homelessness. You then made some very sharp comments about the benefits system; several other Members did, including the Minister, who specifically quoted the local housing allowance. Now, I think we would benefit from a whole debate on this and how it has affected this vital area we're responsible for—housing policy and homelessness. Obviously, we don't set benefits policy, but it clearly has to be assessed on how it has impacted on the most vulnerable, and I think we do need to have a real good examination of this, and I think some of the points that were made were perhaps not entirely based on accurate analysis at the moment. But we should be open to it; that is definitely the criteria to judge any reform.

Suzy mentioned that any rights approach needed to focus on the enforceability of rights, and I thought that was an interesting point—I completely agree—and then talked about the need for post-legislative scrutiny of the 2014 Act, which would then bring into play things like uncooperativeness. So, I thought that was an important contribution.

Mike, it's always a pleasure to listen to you in terms of housing and related issues because you have a wealth of experience, and a generosity of heart, if I may say so, in terms of welcoming ideas wherever you find them, and the whole range of homelessness—the different types of homelessness, from inappropriate to housing to sleeping on the streets, and the lack of affordable housing, which I know is a real passion that you have. That is really something we need to unite on and put right.

Mark gave us a really historical analysis, including the approach in the early Assembly and his contributions, and talked about hidden homelessness in particular, which I thought was really key. This problem has been around a long time—we all own it I think is the honest answer.

Caroline talked about the right to a roof over your head—that's the way I want to term it as well—and welcomed our action plan and the role a tsar might play.

Mohammad then: we're the fifth richest group, and I think that is something always to bear in mind when many of our citizens don't have such a basic right as housing. You made the point—I don't think anyone else made this—that rough-sleepers often do not want to, for various reasons that I completely understand, access emergency hostels.

John I thought made an excellent contribution as the Chair of the local government and housing committee, and was generous enough to balance his remarks with quite sharp criticism, but then also with where he thought that we were making a valuable contribution. He welcomed the human rights approach and then talked about things like assertive outreach, which we're not always comfortable about, but it is something that's raised with us and is important.

Then Mandy I thought made the most powerful speech in many ways, because you were generous again in reflecting on your own experience as a 15-year-old, and goodness knows the thought of someone at 15 in that situation—inadequate housing, imposing yourself on friends or going back to a family situation that was truly wretched for you. I'm sure there are many people that would have heard that who have been in that situation, or even experiencing it now, and would get great support at least from knowing that someone in our Chamber has had such direct experience of this issue. The position of veterans I think is really key and, as I said, earlier this week I was looking at that in Pontypridd. And, again, you endorse the housing first approach. And I do welcome the Minister's response in saying that we should make this a shared agenda. We should cherish all good ideas and use them. And, again, you were kind enough to balance your remarks with those areas where you do feel that our side have more to answer for than perhaps you feel has been raised this afternoon. But I think the general constructiveness is a good foundation for us to ensure that we debate this subject often in all its intricacies. I thank you for you indulgence, Deputy Llywydd.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. Therefore, we will defer voting on this item until voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I intend to proceed to the first vote.

Voting deferred until voting time.