Point of Order

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 2:35 pm on 12 November 2019.

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Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 2:35, 12 November 2019

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I raise a point of order under Standing Order 13.9, Maintenance of Order, and I do so to support your position, Llywydd. If we look at Standing Order 13.9(i), Members are required to be called to order if they engage 

'in conduct which would, in the opinion of the Presiding Officer, constitute a criminal offence or contempt of court'.

I remind Members that privilege does not apply to the commission of criminal offences in this Chamber. It applies only when it comes to civil matters and not to do with criminal matters. I have heard from Mark Reckless today, and I ask him to reflect on this, a question that was put to the First Minister about the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans, about data that could only have been obtained in a way that had come from a covert recording. If data from a covert recording, which mentions a third party, is made public, that is potentially an offence, and I ask you to reflect on that and to rule on that. 

I also draw your attention to 13.9(iv): a Member who 

'is guilty of discourteous or unbecoming conduct'.  

We are all in this Chamber, from time to time, pushed to behave in a way that we wouldn't otherwise. It's part of the normal workings of democracy. We know that this Chamber is a lively place, but it is not becoming, nor is it discourteous, to accuse the Presiding Officer of bias and then offer weasel words—weasel words—and fail to withdraw that allegation. SO 13.9(v) deals with

'using disorderly, discriminatory or offensive language'. 

Well, disorderly language, I think, was implicit and explicit in what was said by Mark Reckless. 

SO 13.9(vi):

'refuses to conform to any Standing Order or other requirement for the conduct of Members'. 

He did not comply with the request that you made to him that he should withdraw the allegation of bias. He would not have been allowed to do that in any other place, and I do not want this Chamber to be seen as somewhere where people can get away with things. Otherwise, that is a road to complete chaos.

And, finally, 13.9(vii): disregarding the authority of the chair. I've seen two Members do that in this Chamber this afternoon. I saw the Member, Neil McEvoy, who incidentally is not here, and I wouldn't refer to that otherwise, but I think it's worth referring to the tweet he's just sent out. A tweet sent out by Neil McEvoy: 

'@yLlywydd should have declared an interest today, before discussing the recordings I made. She was mentioned in them. Questions to answer.'

Not even in the Chamber, but he's attacking you, Llywydd, and I saw him effectively shout you down or try to shout you down this afternoon, and that is behaviour that all of us in this Chamber, I know, would utterly condemn. And I have to say, Mark Reckless, in what he said when he failed to withdraw on your specific request an allegation of bias in a way that was unconditional, and again I ask him to reflect on that, that I thought was a complete disregard, almost a contempt, for the Presiding Officer of the National Assembly for Wales. And I say all these things to support you, Llywydd. I ask you, then, to look at Standing Order 13.9(i) and consider your powers under that Standing Order to deal with a situation, the like of which I have not seen in 20 years in this Chamber.