Point of Order

– in the Senedd at 2:35 pm on 12 November 2019.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 2:35, 12 November 2019

(Translated)

A point of order arising from questions. Carwyn Jones

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I raise a point of order under Standing Order 13.9, Maintenance of Order, and I do so to support your position, Llywydd. If we look at Standing Order 13.9(i), Members are required to be called to order if they engage 

'in conduct which would, in the opinion of the Presiding Officer, constitute a criminal offence or contempt of court'.

I remind Members that privilege does not apply to the commission of criminal offences in this Chamber. It applies only when it comes to civil matters and not to do with criminal matters. I have heard from Mark Reckless today, and I ask him to reflect on this, a question that was put to the First Minister about the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans, about data that could only have been obtained in a way that had come from a covert recording. If data from a covert recording, which mentions a third party, is made public, that is potentially an offence, and I ask you to reflect on that and to rule on that. 

I also draw your attention to 13.9(iv): a Member who 

'is guilty of discourteous or unbecoming conduct'.  

We are all in this Chamber, from time to time, pushed to behave in a way that we wouldn't otherwise. It's part of the normal workings of democracy. We know that this Chamber is a lively place, but it is not becoming, nor is it discourteous, to accuse the Presiding Officer of bias and then offer weasel words—weasel words—and fail to withdraw that allegation. SO 13.9(v) deals with

'using disorderly, discriminatory or offensive language'. 

Well, disorderly language, I think, was implicit and explicit in what was said by Mark Reckless. 

SO 13.9(vi):

'refuses to conform to any Standing Order or other requirement for the conduct of Members'. 

He did not comply with the request that you made to him that he should withdraw the allegation of bias. He would not have been allowed to do that in any other place, and I do not want this Chamber to be seen as somewhere where people can get away with things. Otherwise, that is a road to complete chaos.

And, finally, 13.9(vii): disregarding the authority of the chair. I've seen two Members do that in this Chamber this afternoon. I saw the Member, Neil McEvoy, who incidentally is not here, and I wouldn't refer to that otherwise, but I think it's worth referring to the tweet he's just sent out. A tweet sent out by Neil McEvoy: 

'@yLlywydd should have declared an interest today, before discussing the recordings I made. She was mentioned in them. Questions to answer.'

Not even in the Chamber, but he's attacking you, Llywydd, and I saw him effectively shout you down or try to shout you down this afternoon, and that is behaviour that all of us in this Chamber, I know, would utterly condemn. And I have to say, Mark Reckless, in what he said when he failed to withdraw on your specific request an allegation of bias in a way that was unconditional, and again I ask him to reflect on that, that I thought was a complete disregard, almost a contempt, for the Presiding Officer of the National Assembly for Wales. And I say all these things to support you, Llywydd. I ask you, then, to look at Standing Order 13.9(i) and consider your powers under that Standing Order to deal with a situation, the like of which I have not seen in 20 years in this Chamber.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 2:38, 12 November 2019

I thank the—[Interruption.] No. I thank the Member for the point of order and, just for the record, no Member has succeeded to shout me down in this chair this afternoon. I will look at the record and review the record, on what has been said during the contribution by Mark Reckless earlier on during First Minister's questions, and whether that was within Standing Orders and was in any way a breach of those Standing Orders or any criminal proceedings that may ensue. Members will be aware that I said earlier on this afternoon that South Wales Police and an acting standards commissioner are now the appropriate organisations to pursue many of these matters further.

But just to reflect on this afternoon and, indeed, some of yesterday, I'm very angry at times at how Members behave in this Chamber or undertake their elected work. I'm not angry today; I'm deeply saddened by much of what I have seen and heard in this Chamber and much of what is happening outside of this Chamber. And I will say that Wales deserves better from some of its elected Members, present and not present. And I will now—[Interruption.]. And I include myself in the expectation that Wales deserves of the behaviour of its Members. All of us here, those present and those not present, are expected to do our work in good, orderly conduct, and I'm saddened that some of us, some of you, today, have failed to reach that standard that I would expect Wales deserves of us.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

No, you may not come back [Laughter.]