4. Will the Minister provide an update on actions taken by the Welsh Government following the written statement on dog breeding issued on 9 October 2019? OAQ54669

Thank you. The Wales animal health welfare framework group is undertaking an urgent and immediate review of the dog breeding regulations and will continue to engage with key stakeholders. The chief veterinary officer met with local authorities and the Welsh Local Government Association yesterday to discuss licensing and enforcement issues.

I do welcome the immediate action that the Welsh Government did take following the documentary on Welsh puppy farming last month. But one area that concerns me and others I've spoken to when it comes to licensing is the staff-to-dog ratio in these establishments. Currently, only one full-time attendant is required for 20 adult dogs, and that doesn't even take into account the number of puppies that each dog could have. So, we could end up with a situation of an average-sized litter per dog equating to one person being expected to be responsible for up to 180 adult dogs and puppies at any one time. I can't see how any one person can adequately care for so many animals, spot potential health issues and also meet the welfare needs of those animals to a good standard. So, what I'm asking, Minister, is if you'll consider reviewing the ratio of competent staff required to look after dogs and puppies in breeding establishments to ensure that they are well cared for and that their welfare needs are met. I'm also asking if you'll consider reducing the number of licences issued to each authority to enable a manageable inspection and protection scheme, which is currently failing.

Thank you. I certainly share your concern, particularly about the staff-to-dog ratio. Following the meeting that was held yesterday between the chief veterinary officer and her officials with, actually, 21 local authorities—Flintshire didn't attend, they sent their apologies—I think this was one area that came out very, very high up on the list that we need to look at very carefully.

I mention the task and finish group with members of the Wales animal health and welfare framework group review that's already begun. I don't want to pre-empt that review, but I think, certainly, there were a lot of issues that were raised at this meeting yesterday that I think need careful consideration. Certainly, if you think about exercising the dogs, for instance, whilst I appreciate you can take several dogs out at once, you certainly wouldn't be able to take 50 dogs out at once. If they need exercising three times a day, which I think is what the regulations say, then, certainly, we need to look at that. So, whilst I don't want to pre-empt the review, I think this is clearly an area we need to look at.

In relation to your question about the licences, again, when you see the table of local authorities and the number of licensed premises that they have—I think Torfaen's got one, for instance, Carmarthenshire's got 80, so you can see that there's a big difference across all local authorities. So, again, as part of the review, it's something we can look at, but, clearly, it's the unlicensed breeders that we really need to be making improvements on as well, and the review will have a holistic look at dog breeding here in Wales.

I'm pleased that Joyce Watson raised this question, because I do have a number of very serious concerns about this, Minister. I represent an area where illegal dog breeding is rife. I've written to Elin Jones, when she was the Minister, John Griffiths when he was the Minister, Alun Davies when he was the Minister, Rebecca Evans when she was the Minister, and I've also written to you on this subject. We've seen very little action. Now, Joyce raises a very, very good point about licensing and about—but the issue is, they're the people we know about. The big problem is the people we cannot track, or who we know are down the end of long lanes, and I'd like to understand really clearly a couple of things. One: will you really take action this time, because this has been a long-running sore in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? Two: how will you ensure that good breeders, honest breeders, legitimate breeders are not overly penalised, so that we really drive after the illegal dog breeders?

Finally, I do have to raise the issue of dogs being brought in from Ireland, because I've been out with the police, I've seen with my own eyes caravans where the floors are literally awash with little puppies, and they're used to disguise the trafficking of drugs and other things. There's a van that goes around Pembroke, Pembroke Dock—literally, I've seen him, and he's opened up his back and inside are cages, stuffed, racked, full of puppies. Those are the people we need to get, because the people that Joyce talks about—we know where they are, they need to be improved, they need to be banned or whatever, but it's the others that we cannot get hold of. A difficult job, I appreciate, but it is time we took action on this.

You make a very important point, and that was why I said at the end of my answer to Joyce Watson—Joyce was referring to the breeders that we know about; it's the illegal breeders that we also need to make some areas of great improvement on, because I'm very aware of the stories that you've just told here. The balance about not penalising the legal breeders is very important, and the meeting that was held yesterday with the local authorities was to find out exactly what is going on on the ground—how local authorities are dealing with enforcing, for instance. So, I think it was a very productive meeting. I've had a note of the meeting. That will now feed into the task and finish group review that I asked to be undertaken immediately after that programme was aired. So, I will keep Members updated, but I just wanted to show that, with what I said in the written statement, we are taking action immediately. I expect to have the report from the task and finish group by the end of this year. So, when we come back in January, after the Christmas recess, I hope to be able to update Members then.