The next item is the motion to appoint an acting standards commissioner. I call on the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee to move the motion—Jayne Bryant.

Motion NDM7192 Jayne Bryant

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes that the National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards is vacant.

2. Appoints, Douglas Bain CBE TD, as acting Commissioner in accordance with Section 4(1) of the National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards Measure 2009, on the following terms:

a) the appointment takes effect immediately;

b) the appointment ends immediately when notice is given to the acting Commissioner by the Clerk of the Assembly;

c) the acting Commissioner’s Remuneration is to be a daily rate of £392 (or pro-rata for part of a day) for activities that relate directly to the role and responsibilities of the post plus reasonable expenses;

d) all sums referred to in paragraph 2(c) are to be paid to the acting Commissioner by the Assembly Commission.

Motion moved.

Llywydd, I move the motion to appoint an acting commissioner for standards in light of the resignation of Sir Roderick Evans on 11 November 2019. This appointment is an important step to maintain and ensure the integrity of our independent standards process.

The nominee today, Douglas Bain, has a broad range of experience in making considered judgments across a number of complex fields, and so is more than qualified to take on this role. Furthermore, he has undertaken the role of acting commissioner in this Assembly previously, and therefore has a good knowledge of how the Assembly operates and the code of conduct. 

This is a temporary appointment. Members will have noted in my statement yesterday that the committee is reviewing the code of conduct, and as part of this we will be considering the role of the commissioner for standards. We intend for this to be an open process and will be consulting on our work in due course.

May I ask the Member whether the committee has discussed or approved Douglas Bain as a candidate before she put forward the motion today? Can I also ask a little more about the scope of the work? She mentioned 'temporary', but I'm unclear whether she's referring to perhaps a few weeks, or is this something that could extend through to the end of the Assembly?

Also, in terms of his skills and the type of work he's going to be doing, what is her expectation about is this narrow, if we like, black leather letter law, more about financial issues and declarations of interest, or is she expecting his work, in terms of the time commitment and the skills appropriate, to be more about far more subjective and judgmental issues with respect to the dignity and respect policy? Does she expect his work to support Government Ministers, using the standards system to pursue opposition AMs? [Interruption.] In terms of the £392—[Interruption.] If I may ask the Member about the £392 daily rate, what consideration has been given to choosing this rate? It is simply because the previous permanent occupant had this rate? And, if so, what consideration has been given to the respective qualifications and experience of the candidate she's put forward now, compared to the previous occupant and his long-time role as a High Court judge? Thank you.

Diolch, Llywydd. [Interruption.] Who are you?

Diolch, Llywydd. I think I'm one of only a handful of Members who have had direct dealings with Mr Bain. Now, I—[Interruption.] Now, I wasn't intending to speak on this motion today, but I was moved to do so by a member of my staff, who is watching these proceedings from the gallery. My staff member wanted to put on record how he was made to feel after Mr Bain had dealt with him. Now, Llywydd, given that we have to be mindful of the dignity and respect policy, I think these comments from my staff member need to be borne in mind. If you will allow, I will quote briefly from what he said. I quote: 'During the first interview with Mr Bain, when I accompanied Gareth, I found his manner to be both aggressive and intimidating. I felt helpless to support my employer, because the acting commissioner had threatened to eject me from the room if I so much as opened my mouth. After the interview, I was shaking as I left the room. I felt bullied and demeaned as I had had no right of reply, even though the acting commissioner referred to me and my actions several times. When we left the room, Gareth asked me why I was shaking. I replied that I had no idea how he had put up with Mr Bain's interrogation for so long. I was hurt and angry and bruised from the experience. I dreaded the second interview with Mr Bain, who hadn't changed his tune since the first time—'

Reading out of lengthy quotations in this Chamber is not usual practice. I think most of—. Unless there is something new that needs to be added in the rest of the quotation you have there, I think you can bring this to a close now. 

This appointment is being pushed through very quickly. What has basically happened is you're—. He's thrown me under a bus, Bain, and now you're trying to get him to bring someone else—you're bringing him in to throw someone else under a bus. He's a political hatchet man and he shouldn't be appointed. That's why I'm voting against this motion today. 

The use of 'political hatchet man' as a term of abuse is not acceptable, and you will withdraw that use of a description of any individual who is not here and able to defend themselves at this point. I ask you to withdraw that accusation. 

I will withdraw it, although I regret that you didn't allow me to give some substance to my remarks today. But certainly, of course, Llywydd, I withdraw it. 

I've allowed you every opportunity to give substance to your remarks. I've curtailed only a lengthy quotation by you. You are as equal as all other Members in this Chamber to put any substantive points you wish to make to debate. Are you continuing, or have you drawn to a close? No. You have drawn to a close. 

I call on the Chair of the committee to respond to the debate. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Just in response to some of Mark Reckless's points, all of the members of the standards committee agreed on the appointment for this acting commissioner. On the issue of how long it will take to appoint a new commissioner, the Standards of Conduct Committee have already started discussions about the next stages, and we're keen to ensure that the changing nature of the role since it was established in 2011 is reflected in the forthcoming appointment. 

You ask about the suitability of the acting commissioner. He's held a number of senior positions in the Northern Ireland Office, the police and the Northern Ireland Prison Service. In addition, he's held a number of public offices, such as the chief electoral officer for Northern Ireland and, more latterly, he was the Northern Ireland Assembly Commissioner for Standards from 2012-17.

The other points that you raised around terms and conditions—it's on the same terms and conditions as the previous standards commissioner. The acting commissioner will be responsible for continuing the work of the previous commissioner in considering complaints that have been submitted to the office and for investigating any new complaints that are submitted during the period of his employment. 

And, just to finish on the point that Gareth Bennett raised, just for Members to be aware, while I understand that Gareth Bennett might have concerns about the acting commissioner, the report of that commissioner went to the Assembly standards committee and then was brought to this Assembly Chamber and was then voted on by the majority of Assembly Members in this Chamber. Thank you, Llywydd. 

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.