Strengthening the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

2. Questions to the Counsel General & Brexit Minister (in respect of his 'law officer' responsibilities) – in the Senedd on 7 January 2020.

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Photo of David Melding David Melding Conservative

(Translated)

1. What discussions has the Counsel General had with other law officers in the UK on ways to strengthen the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? OAQ54884

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 2:29, 7 January 2020

I frequently have discussions with others about our relationship within the United Kingdom and strengthening our place within it. We believe Wales's interests are best served by being a part of the United Kingdom, and the United Kingdom is better and stronger for having Wales in it. 

Photo of David Melding David Melding Conservative

Can I just say how much those sentiments are supported on this side of the Assembly as well? You may have heard the First Minister in evidence yesterday to the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee saying that the Prime Minister will be taking the Dunlop review's findings as seriously as the Government that commissioned that review. And I notice that this review, of course, is looking at ways to strengthen and sustain the union. And one of the things reported as a likely finding—and I quote the great authority of the Scottish Herald, which I'm sure colleagues opposite will find very reassuring—is that there will be a recommendation to replace the Joint Ministerial Committee system with a new inter-governmental structure, serviced by an independent secretariat, to command greater confidence from the devolved administrations. This has been a core appeal of the Welsh Government, and I, in this Chamber, have commended much of the work in terms of strengthening the governance structures within the United Kingdom that have been made by the Welsh Government, and much of that has been enthusiastically supported on this side of the Chamber.

So, can you now assure us that you will continue to work in this vain, as we're in new constitutional ground because of the fact that we will be leaving shortly the European Union, and that's the spirit in which you should co-operate with the UK Government, and use your leverage to the maximum and achieve productive results like the one you are seemingly likely to achieve when we hear the recommendations of the Dunlop review?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 2:31, 7 January 2020

I thank the Member for that further question. I've been following with interest his series of postings on Twitter about the future of the union. The key is that the constitutional arrangements for a union of four nations need to respect the identity and aspirations of each of those nations, while preserving the collective interest of the whole. I know that he will have read the publication of the Welsh Government in October of last year, 'Reforming our Union: Shared Governance in the UK', which describes, I think, the kind of positive engagement that the Member identifies in his question, which has always been the approach that the UK Government has taken to this set of challenges—challenges which have become even more intense in the context of the pressure that Brexit has put upon the relationships within the United Kingdom.

We do need an acceptance—and I will say, perhaps particularly by the UK Government, which has not always accepted, despite the points he's made in his question—the need for a more shared vision of the governance of the United Kingdom into the future, and a new culture of mutual respect and parity of esteem in the kind of inter-governmental relations that have often been challenging.

We have identified on a number of occasions the shortcomings in the JMC arrangements, and have a very positive and constructive alternative to that. If the proposals that come out of the UK Government's recommendations reflect those kinds of principles and proposals, clearly we will welcome that. But alongside that approach, there needs to be a recognition on the part of the UK Government that we need to operate in a rules-based system, not one that invests them with considerable discretion to operate in the way that they choose. And the challenge will be, and the test for the UK Government will be, its readiness, or otherwise, to engage on a rules-based system, agreed between the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom. That is the only way for the union to remain sustainable into the future.

Photo of David Lloyd David Lloyd Plaid Cymru 2:33, 7 January 2020

Now that the dust has settled on the general election, it is clear that the separate nations of the United Kingdom have once again chosen different paths, and only in England do the Conservatives have a majority. Wales will once again be under the rule of a Conservative Government even though it did not vote for one. Once again, Wales gets the Government that England wants. For how much longer will the Welsh Government allow this situation to continue? Do you agree that you have an opportunity to forge a different path? And why do you therefore not commit to demanding significant constitutional changes, to demand more powers for this Senedd along the lines of the referendum of 2011, to ensure that a range of policies can be delivered by a Government that we in Wales actually elected?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 2:34, 7 January 2020

Well, the Member may have not followed the debate that the Government has been leading here in Wales, which has been calling for further devolution of powers to this Assembly, principally, and most recently, in the area of justice. And I know that he shares that aspiration very strongly. There is a need, in the context of the changing union, for there to be an ongoing debate, and the publication that the First Minister issued towards the end of last year seeks to contribute to that debate, and to lead that debate. And I think evidence suggests that we have been successful in moving the perception of the debate here in Wales, and, to some extent, with the UK Government, and we will continue to do that in the interests of the people of Wales.

Photo of Huw Irranca-Davies Huw Irranca-Davies Labour 2:35, 7 January 2020

Regardless of the historic development of the union of the United Kingdom, the modern union is a union of consent, and that consent requires respect among the national and regional governments and the Parliaments of the United Kingdom. But this union is also fluid and full of stresses, which can hold it together but equally can threaten to pull it apart, in response to social and economic and political tensions, across different parts of that United Kingdom. And the process of Brexit, and the recent elections, have heightened those tensions. So, as we see that the process of Brexit and the recent elections have heightened those tensions, would the Counsel General and Brexit Minister give us his informed assessment of the implications for Wales, and the United Kingdom, of these tensions, not least the demand by the Scottish nationalist party for another referendum on independence in Scotland, and the continuing absence of a functioning Northern Ireland Executive? From his lofty viewpoint, having just marked the end of one decade, and looking forward to another, can he tell us: what is the future for Wales in the United Kingdom? I thought I'd start the new year with an easy question.

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 2:36, 7 January 2020

Well, as his question implies, we were the first Government to draw attention, over two years ago, to the constitutional challenges presented by Brexit, which he highlights in his question. And the 20 propositions in reforming our union describes the UK as a voluntary association of nations. Wales remains committed to that association, but it must be based on the recognition of popular sovereignty in each part of the UK, and not the outmoded version of parliamentary sovereignty, which we often have cited. I hope very much that the constitution, democracy and rights commission, which the UK Government has committed to establish within the next 12 months, will consider those proposals, rather than focusing on narrower interests. The UK, as his question implies, was constructed really not through any conscious plan, but as a result of pragmatic and politically expedient decisions. But the devolved institutions of Wales, and other parts of the UK, were established on the basis of popular endorsement, through referenda, which bring with them their own source of legitimacy, and that will be essential for the UK Government to recognise in any future discussions and negotiations over the future of the union.