The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans, and amendment 2 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. If amendment 1 is agreed amendment 2 will be deselected.

Item 7 on our agenda this afternoon, then, is the Welsh Conservative debate on community regeneration. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Motion NDM7221 Darren Millar

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Regrets the failure of the Welsh Government’s Communities First programme to tackle poverty in the most deprived communities of Wales.

2. Recognises the need to deliver, in practice, a co-productive approach to community regeneration, with community involvement in co-designing and co-delivery of local services.

3. Acknowledges the particular challenges faced by seaside and market towns with higher retail vacancy rates and higher levels of deprivation than in other parts of Wales.

4. Calls upon the Welsh Government to establish Seaside Town and Market Town funds to support regeneration in communities across Wales.

Motion moved.

Diolch. Our motion proposes that this Senedd regrets the failure of the Welsh Government's Communities First programme to tackle poverty in the most deprived communities of Wales. Like many, I gave my support to this tackling poverty programme when it was launched because we were told it was about genuine community empowerment and ownership. However, concerns developed as evidence grew that the programme wasn't delivering the improved outcomes needed by people in Communities First areas.

Eight years ago, the Welsh Government rejected the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and Centre for Regeneration Excellence Wales report, 'Communities First—A Way Forward', which found that community involvement in co-designing and co-delivering local services should be central to any successor tackling poverty programme. Five years later, and after spending almost £0.5 billion on it, the Welsh Government announced that it was phasing out Communities First, having failed to reduce the headline rates of poverty or increase relative prosperity in Wales.

As the WCVA and CREW said in 2011,

'any successor programme to Communities First needs to create the conditions to migrate from a top down government programme into a community led strategy for tackling deprivation and promoting social justice.'

As CREW's 2014 'deep place' study in Tredegar found:

'In recent years the community empowerment agenda has been increasingly framed within the co-production approach' and

'governance for resilient and sustainable places should...seek to engage local citizens', requiring

'a very different perspective from the normal approach to power at community level and...dependent on a willing and open ability to share power and work

for common objectives.'

As the 2017 Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee 'Communities First: Lessons Learnt' report found, Communities First had a mixed record because

'there was too much variability across Wales, and inadequate performance management frameworks'.

As the Bevan Foundation stated in 2017,

'Communities First did not reduce the headline rates of poverty in the vast majority of communities, still less in Wales as a whole.'

Oxfam Cymru has specifically called on the Welsh Government to embed the sustainable livelihoods approach in all policy and service delivery in Wales, helping people identify their own strengths in order to tackle the root problems preventing them and their communities from reaching their potential. As the Bevan Foundation states, if people feel that policies are imposed on them, the policies don't work and a new programme should be produced with communities, not directed top down.

The 'Valuing place' report, commissioned by the Welsh Government, based on research in three communities, including Connah's Quay, found that establishing local networks to connect people together who want to take local action should be of priority. I, personally, have been pleased to work with local GPs and third-sector co-production change makers on Deeside seeking to do this.

However, the Welsh Government has proved averse to implementing the Localism Act 2011 community rights agenda, which would help community engagement. Although the well-being objectives in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 include people contributing to their community being informed, included and listened to, too often this hasn't happened, either because people in power don't want to share it or because of a failure to understand that delivering services this way will create more efficient and effective services.

UK Government policy on non-devolved matters applies across the UK, but only Wales has had a Labour Welsh Government for almost 21 years. The Joseph Rowntree report on UK poverty published in October 2018 stated that of the four countries of the UK Wales has consistently had the highest poverty rates for the past 20 years. Two months previously, a Bevan Foundation 'State of Wales' briefing found that the relative income poverty rate in Wales was higher than that in England, Northern Ireland and Scotland, the proportion of working-age adults in poverty in Wales was higher than any other UK nation, and the pensioner poverty rate in Wales was far higher than in the other UK nations.

Last May, the End Child Poverty Network reported that Wales was the only UK nation to see a rise in child poverty the previous year to 29 per cent. Well, child poverty levels in Wales had already reached that level in 2007—the highest child poverty level in the UK—after a decade of UK Labour Government, eight years of Labour Welsh Government and before all of this could be blamed on the financial crash or the post-2010 UK Government.

Despite billions of structural funding intended to close the relative prosperity gap, figures published last month show that Wales still has the lowest prosperity per head amongst the UK nations at just 72.8 per cent of the UK level. The five-yearly publication of Wales's index of multiple deprivation last November revealed that many of the wards at the bottom had also been in, or just outside, the bottom five, 10 and 15 years previously.

Age Alliance Wales has raised repeated concern that the third sector has been seen as a bit-part player, with little or no strategic involvement in the integrated care fund and little input into programme planning. Despite the Welsh Government's repeated championing of prevention and early intervention services, its actions have, in practice, been stripping out key third-sector early intervention and prevention services at huge additional cost to our health and social services.

A Wales Audit Office report last September noted that the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 places a duty on local authorities to focus on prevention and early intervention, and deliver a wider range of community-based services through partnerships and multi-agency working, but reported that wide variation in the availability, visibility, accessibility and quality of information provided by local authorities is resulting in inconsistent take-up across Wales. They stated that councils should involve third-sector partners in co-producing preventative solutions to meet people's needs and ensure people have equitable access to these services.

Well, all mainstream political parties want to tackle poverty. Labour claims that only the state can guarantee fairness, and, of course, the state is key. But their centralised top-down approach means well but fails badly. Welsh Conservatives understand that social justice will only be delivered by really empowering people to fulfil their potential and to take ownership in their own communities. Labour sets limits on what the voluntary sector, social enterprises and community groups can do. Welsh Conservatives recognise that it is these social entrepreneurs and poverty fighters who can deliver the solutions for the long-term problems of our most deprived communities—they can succeed where the state alone fails. 

Our motion proposes that this Senedd recognises the need to deliver, in practice, a co-productive approach to community regeneration, with community involvement in co-designing and co-delivery of local services. This means adopting international best practice, enabling people and professionals to share power and work together in equal relationships to make public services more effective and relevant, and unlocking community strengths to build stronger communities for the future. As the Bevan Foundation emphasises, a theory of change that builds on people's assets and enables them to improve their lives is more effective than meeting needs or addressing deficits. The Welsh Government should focus on long-term outcomes not short-term inputs, and programmes should be co-produced by communities and professionals, drawing on evidence of what works.

Our motion proposes that this Senedd acknowledges the particular challenges faced by seaside and market towns with higher retail vacancy rates and higher levels of deprivation than in other parts of Wales and calls on the Welsh Government to establish seaside town and market town funds to support regeneration in communities across Wales. Five of the 10 most deprived areas in Wales are located within towns, including Rhyl, Merthyr Tydfil and Wrexham.

As the Federation of Small Businesses Cymru has argued, towns are fundamental to the way that Wales works, with small towns in Wales accounting for almost 40 per cent of the population of the country, and they say we need a new approach to our high streets, struggling under the weight of a number of issues, and we've now reached a critical time for these businesses.

A Welsh Conservative Government would therefore establish a seaside town fund and a market town fund to help regenerate Wales's local communities, with £200 million to be invested in our local areas over a five-year term. These funds, which would enable communities to decide how the fund is to be invested within their local area, will help to support vital local services and businesses and emphasise the Welsh Conservatives' commitment to levelling up investment across Wales and restoring Welsh towns and communities. 

As the Welsh Retail Consortium notes, Wales has the highest non-domestic rates multiplier in Britain, and a higher empty shop rate than in any other part of the UK. Whilst Labour only provides 100 per cent rate relief for retail properties, up to a rateable value of £9,100, a Welsh Conservative Government would extend this to £15,000.

The Welsh Government amendment recognises the important role of business improvement districts. But, their website states that only 24 of these exist or are being developed in Wales, that support is only available until March 2020, and that only funding of up to £30,000 is available for each district. Enough is enough. As evidence repeatedly confirms, embracing the co-production revolution in our towns and communities trumps top-down approaches towards community engagement any day. After 20 years, we need real change. 

Thank you. I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Can I ask the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans? 

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Welcomes the £800m investment in community and town centre regeneration between 2014 and 2022.

2. Notes the support the Welsh Government provides for local businesses in towns throughout Wales, including a comprehensive package of non-domestic rates relief, to address high street vacancies.

3. Recognises the important role of Business Improvement Districts in helping businesses and communities to work together to deliver grassroots solutions and support the regeneration of their local areas.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally.

Formally, thank you. Can I call on Leanne Wood to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth? 

Amendment 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Delete all after point 1 and replace with:

Regrets the UK Government’s benefits policies, particularly Universal Credit, which have increased poverty as reported by the United Nations in Report of the Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights.

Acknowledges the damaging effects of austerity on community regeneration and calls on the Welsh Government to support community initiatives to reverse its effects.

Calls upon the Welsh Government to co-develop high street regeneration and local transport policy as a way to improve community regeneration.

Amendment 2 moved.

Diolch. I'm yet again staggered to see the Tories bring forward a motion in this Senedd lamenting poverty and deprivation. What next? What can we expect next? Can we expect to see a motion lamenting capitalism from them perhaps?

Now, I've got a large amount of sympathy for arguments that hold this Labour Government to account for their failure to replace the Communities First programme with an alternative anti-poverty programme, and indeed their failure to have a poverty reduction strategy at all. I would also have sympathy with arguments that show the woeful failure of this Government, having been in power for the entire 20 years that we've had devolution, to make anything more than a small dent in overcoming the poverty faced by people in our former industrial areas, those areas that have been in deep and intractable poverty since Margaret Thatcher deliberately de-industrialised us. These are failures that have had widespread and deep effects and those effects can still be felt today. I have to say, though, it's nothing short of bare-faced cheek to outline these failures without looking in the mirror.

The benefits policies of the Tories in Westminster have been heavily criticised by the UN special rapporteur and the impact of those measures has been outlined in this Chamber by many Members on many occasions. We all understand why there are so many more people forced to live on the streets: it's a direct result of your Government's policies. Yet, you come here and you wring your hands about poverty in Wales. 

In the debate that follows, Plaid Cymru will outline practical and effective measures to tackle child poverty in particular. It's beyond a scandal that child mortality rates, in fact, overall mortality rates, in England and Wales are worsening while child mortality rates are improving in Scotland. That means people are dying younger here. Yes, that's partly because we've lived with 12 years of austerity, but it's more than that, otherwise the Scottish mortality rates would be the same as those for England and Wales. But, Scotland has a Government with a strategy to tackle poverty that includes prioritising investment in maternity and early years services, and that investment is paying off.

Poverty is not a natural phenomenon. Poverty is not inevitable. It's created deliberately by policy, and it can be stemmed. It can even be stopped, with political will. But, I don't see that will in the Government here. And I see the absolute opposite of that from the party run by your Government on the other end of the M4. We can overcome poverty, but, as I see it, we can rely on neither the Labour Party nor the Tories to do that. It's only going to happen if we decide to do it for ourselves. 

Rarely a day goes by that I do not regret the ending of the Communities First schemes in my constituency. Firstly, anyone who thought that a £30-million-a-year scheme would eradicate poverty was somewhere between hyper-optimistic and delusional. This is echoed by the evidence that Caerphilly council gave to an Assembly committee when we were looking at it. Can I just say that to expect a single programme to single handedly reduce poverty is naive and unrealistic? You will never eradicate poverty, generational poverty, by a single anti-poverty programme. It has been very successful at some things and not so successful at others, but, actually, poverty, fundamentally, is down to economics. Anti-poverty programmes and employment-support programmes are all well and good, but, actually, unless we have a robust economy, then we're never going to eradicate poverty. We also know that the first thing the majority of people who live in a homogeneously poor area do when they increase their income sufficiently is move. We have examples of that not just in Wales but we have examples of that in England as well.

We know the characteristics of poor communities: poor health; a high number of people on benefits; those not on benefits, which are more and more, on very low pay at the minimum wage, and more crucially with low guaranteed hours, leading to low and variable income, and many are going through serious problems this month as they were getting 30 and 40 hours last month and are now down to their guaranteed seven and 10 hours this month; general low educational attainment; few books in the home; with many a sense that things cannot get any better.

Where you have an area that is heterogeneously disadvantaged, then, to quote Welsh Local Government Association evidence to the same committee,

'if you look at the most disadvantaged areas, they've got the most parts of the system where intervention is needed, so they need a multi-agency approach, an intensive piece of work, to put all the bits back, and get them working again. In a more affluent area, where you've got pockets of poverty, the system isn't quite as broken, and, therefore, you need fewer interventions—more specific interventions—to help those people get back up and running again.'

Ynys Môn council said:

'The programme has reaped success for changing and improving individual people's lives by supporting them into training, volunteering and work opportunities and improving their life skills.'

To quote Swansea Council:

'Community based, accessible services allow staff to understand communities, building relationships and trust that support disengaged people to participate in and access services that they would not otherwise be able to access.'

Community successes: health; weight-loss programmes; improved-diet programmes; smoking-cessation programmes; exercise programmes. I hold the view that stopping ill health is more important than seeing health as a treatment system, which is what we do, we put more money into health and treat more people, but let's have fewer people needing treatment.

On poverty, a project looked to help people through reducing their utility bills. At a committee meeting this morning, we were talking about the fact that a lot of work has been done by Nest and Arbed in actually improving the buildings, and by the Welsh housing quality standard, but people are still paying a lot more if they're poor. As I've said on more than one occasion: it's very expensive to be poor. The amount that people pay when they have to put tokens into the system in order to get gas and electric is substantially more than we in this room do. In fact, I've said, again on more than one occasion: I have constituents who spend more money on heating to be cold than I do to be warm. 

We have projects sorting and recycling unwanted clothes. There's a lot of work, it's not just in Swansea, there was good work done in Denbighshire, as you know, Deputy Presiding Officer, in recycling clothes within schools. These sorts of things, they do make a difference to the lives of people. A project promoted a local credit union and getting people out of doorstep loans, and doorstep loans really are a huge problem for very many, many people; where someone comes and offers them money and all of a sudden it's going to cost them a huge amount in the end. Education and low educational attainment is a major cause of poverty. Projects prioritised improving education attainment by helping adults back into learning; family learning projects in partnership with local schools; parent and toddler groups aimed at increasing the development and learning of preschoolers; a homework club providing support to children and their homework. 

Society has got a lot worse than since I was a child living in a very poor community. I had access to everything anybody else did because I could go to the local library. No-one had better access to books than I did. Nowadays, you have people with their electronic devices in their bedrooms, when people like myself, if I was living there now, would have a two-mile walk in order to get to the library. There was also a scheme that encouraged a learning environment in the family and home.

Communities First was, in many ways, an excellent scheme, and it was a very, very sad day when the Welsh Government decided to do away with it without bringing anything to replace it on those things that really matter: improving live chances for those in our poorest communities. 

We all wish to see bustling high streets at the heart of our towns. To achieve this, we need thriving local businesses and positive engagement by our communities with their high streets. However, the sad reality is that today many of our high streets are in crisis. Too many shops in Welsh town centres are empty. Figures from the Welsh Retail Consortium show that, in the most recent quarter, Wales had a retail vacancy rate of more than 13.4 per cent. This is a higher shop vacancy rate than any other part of the United Kingdom.

There are many reasons for the decline in our high streets: changes to people's lifestyles have meant changes to the ways they shop; the development of out-of-town retail, in some cases, has had a detrimental effect on town centres across Wales: shoppers like and appreciate the convenience and choice offered by out-of-town retailers, with the benefit of free parking; e-commerce is one of the fastest growing markets in the Europe, with more and more business being carried out on the internet. All these factors combine to increase pressure on our high streets.

Without taking action, they will just disappear, Deputy Presiding Officer. They cannot survive unaided. We need a package of measures to support local businesses and communities. That means addressing the issues of non-domestic rates. The Welsh Government's written statement yesterday on rate relief was welcome here. However, local businesses in Wales are still being hampered by high non-domestic rates that are stifling business creation and hindering their growth. Non-domestic rates in Wales raise over £1 billion.

The lack of Government support has resulted in our town centres being blighted by empty shops. This brings the risk of vandalism and crime, adding to the run-down appearance of our communities. As the Federation of Small Businesses recognises: for renewal to take place, town centres need to be more business-like and they need to learn from our competitors, like other devolved nations. The behaviour and expectations of consumers has changed and we need a more informed approach to town-centre management.

I believe that business improvement districts have a vital role to play in the regeneration of our high streets, but it's not just about shops. Leisure and services have essential roles to play. We need a balance of large retailers, small shops, leisure services, cafes, bars and restaurants, as well as housing. We need a town strategy that goes beyond the targeted regeneration strategy outlined by the Welsh Government's Vibrant and Viable Places approach, one that recognises the particular problems faced by our seaside and market towns and provides the retailer support these communities need and deserve.

The Welsh Conservatives would unleash Welsh potential by establishing a fund for our seaside market towns worth £200 million over five years. This funding commitment would be far more ambitious than the Welsh Government's current top-down regeneration strategy and would enable these communities to grow and thrive. Deputy Presiding Officer, there is an urgent need to revitalise our high streets as centres for economic growth and we need to act now.

Finally, as a matter of fact, since 2014-17, £124 million has been spent on 18 areas, Ministers. What is the development there? EU funding—£150 million in the last six or seven years, and also £100 million for the regeneration national plan, which should be carried on until 2021. What is the development in those areas? Are the vacancies on the high streets getting better? No, they're getting worse, especially in my region in south-east Wales—we are really suffering. The most deprived areas in the United Kingdom are in my region.

I think it's a big shame to us here. We are doing a lot of verbal—. I heard our colleague on the other side of the bench here talking about all these blames going towards the other side of London. That's not the case. Nearly £370 million in the last seven years and where has the money gone? Regeneration for local communities—what happened there? There are still many empty shops—. I don't want to learn lessons from Plaid Cymru. They gave an example of UN law and the other side of the bridge. Why can't they ask the Government to make sure they deliver the best possible service to our communities? We should regenerate our poor communities in all of south-east Wales.

I oppose the motion for different reasons for each of the four points. The first point, I think it's fair enough to regret the failure of the Welsh Government's Communities First programme, but there are an awful lot of Welsh Government programmes that have failed in one way or another, but generally, they drag on without the Government admitting the failure. In this case—and I think they deserve some credit for it—the Welsh Government grasped the nettle, assessed the programme, came to a view that it hadn't worked as proposed and closed it down. As you heard from Mike, there's been a lot of opposition from within Labour circles and from people involved in the delivery of the programme to what they did. I've heard Ken Skates speak to a degree about an alternative approach and a focus on economic growth, but I think it's churlish not to recognise that response from the Government in this case.

Point 2 recognises the need to deliver in practice a co-productive approach. I looked up the word 'co-productive', Dictionary.com said 'no response' and in the Oxford English Dictionary in the library, 'co-productive' is not a word in it. I heard a bit of what Mark was saying and he's looking to intervene, so I'll happily give way.  

Can I commend to you Coproduction Wales, the Co-Production Network for Wales, the huge funding they got from the lottery to deliver that project and look at the international meaning of 'Co-production', capital 'C'? It was launched originally in Western Australia some 30 years ago to huge international success since. 

I thank him for that assistance. 'Co-produce' is in Dictionary.com, not 'co-productive', but 'co-produce'. It says,

'to produce (a motion picture, play, etc.) in collaboration with others.'

In any event, I infer it has something to do with community involvement and co-designing and co-delivery of local services and that is a good thing, but the actual word 'co-productive' is not one I'm familiar with.

I think more substantively, looking at point 3, I think there's a real ambiguity about point 3. I'm not sure whether the Conservatives are saying that, where seaside and market towns are in more deprived parts of Wales they should get greater assistance. I'm not sure if they're saying that particular seaside and market towns, where there's a particular issue of deprivation need assistance, or I'm not sure if they're making a point or a claim that seaside and market towns are more deprived than other parts of Wales, in which case, I've got sympathy for Leanne Wood and her reference to our industrial and post-industrial communities, who potentially seem to be excluded from this definition. I will, again, give way, in this case to Darren Millar.

It's not that we don't recognise, of course, that there is poverty outside of seaside towns and market towns. It's just that there are very often peculiar challenges that are faced by seaside towns and market towns that we want to shine attention on, and bring some regeneration focus to. Very often, those have been overlooked in the past by previous Welsh Governments, and it's something that we want to see addressed.

I congratulate the Member on his work, actually, over a long period of time, putting the case for seaside towns, and I congratulate the Conservatives, who are representing rather more, at least at Westminster level, than they were before. But not all seaside towns are deprived. I'm not sure whether we'll hear from David Melding—perhaps he'll be putting the case for Penarth, but I'm not sure that, as a category, seaside towns are necessarily under greater deprivation, and I don't understand the linkage to market towns. Perhaps expanding the reach of the motion gets more support from across the Conservative group, but overall, I don't associate market towns as being, on average, or the first word that comes to my mind to associate with market towns, as one of deprivation. I'm sure there are pockets of deprivation in market towns, and I'm sure some market towns are more deprived than others, but the idea of setting up a special new fund just for seaside towns and market towns I worry is, (1) bureaucratic, and a new fund and structure for doing this may be over the top, and (2) do all seaside towns and market towns—do we want to see that benefit spread on the basis that they are deprived?

So, what are the market towns? We need a definition. We have from Visit Wales a list of 21 market towns, and I have a rather wonderful book I've had at home for some years, Market Town Wales, from David Williams, and he also gives a list, in his case of 25, and some sort of definition. He says there are about 50 towns in Wales where you've got a medium size of lettering on the map. Some were defensive sites, and others—he specifically excludes the linear towns of the southern coalfield, the quarry communities of Snowdonia, and also the industrial centres of north-east Wales. So all those are excluded from his definition of market towns. I'm not sure whether the Conservatives want to exclude it from theirs, or from the benefit from these funds, but I would just question whether this motion as it is written is one that should have support, or whether it's as well thought through as it might have been. Thank you.

I'd like to focus my contribution today on the challenges that face seaside and market towns, of which I have many in my constituency, and explore what options there are to help with the regeneration of such communities throughout the whole of Wales. I will be addressing your issue in a moment, Mark Reckless, if you are prepared to bear with me.

Minister, as we know, across Wales, we are blessed with beautiful countryside, historic towns and vibrant communities, and towns such as Narberth, Cowbridge and Conwy regularly bring in visitors and are very well lauded. But whilst we have these jewels in the crown, there are plenty of towns and villages throughout the nation that have fallen on hard times, and that the Welsh Government appears to have no clear strategy to deal with.

The House of Lords select committee on regenerating seaside towns and communities stated that

'the seaside and our coastal heritage is a vital part of our country's greatest assets', and, of course, I represent a constituency with a long coastline, and I have a duty to ensure that this asset is maximised and realised appropriately. I don't want to go back to the past, where we all imagine skipping down market towns with our rose-tinted glasses, with baskets over our arms, and being able to go into every candlestick maker, baker and the rest of them. But I am going to claim that, with the right support, market and seaside towns can adapt with the times, make use of the unique selling points they have, and thrive and grow in the twenty-first century.

I'm going to focus on my constituency, so please indulge me, where we have communities such as Laugharne, with its links to one of Wales's greatest authors, and westwards to Tenby, which has modelled itself as a true year-round destination, obviously with the Iron Man event I referenced earlier, and of course the towns of Pembroke, which is the birthplace of Henry Tudor, and Pembroke Dock, with a very rich military history. Whilst each of these towns has their unique selling points, they still face the challenges of a changing retail sector.

Before Christmas, I attended an excellent Christmas fair at Pembroke castle. It attracts visitors from near and far, but as I walked back to my car at the other end of Pembroke high street, it really brought home to me the decimation of that high street over the past 15 years since I have lived there. It used to be a vibrant, busy high street, had a supermarket right in the centre of town, but now, it's bookies, it's charity shops, and everything else is pretty much boarded up. And I do wonder what we can actually do to bring that kind of life back into that type of high street, because if it's not Pembroke, it's Pembroke Dock, and it's slowly becoming Narberth, which has been a jewel in the Pembrokeshire crown for a long time, and Whitland, which is dying on its feet, St Clears going the same way.

Now, I mentioned this in a question to the economy Minister before Christmas, and was told that Welsh Government was promoting a town-centre-first initiative, encouraging more business improvement districts, and encouraging people to focus on promotions such as Small Business Saturday. But, Minister, I do not feel that this response adequately addresses the problems that are being faced. It's not just about retail offerings and conditions that need to be looked at, but other fundamental aspects of life in rural, seaside or market communities. And I would recommend that one might choose to go and study the Carnegie Trust reports into seaside and market towns, particularly seaside, because the points that they make are that, by the very nature of them being by the ocean, they tend to be further away from the centres of government; they tend to be more isolated; they tend to be more rural. And there are, very clearly laid out by the Carnegie Trust, very clear and particular issues that seaside towns and small market towns on the fringes of the coast face. And that's where we've looked for an awful lot of our research, and I'd be very happy to share that with anybody going forward. 

That is why a Welsh Conservative Government would look to establish a seaside town fund and a market town fund to help regenerate local communities, with £200 million earmarked to be invested over a five-year period. Minister, our aim would be—and we would like this to be your aim—to create a more level playing field around investment between our towns and our cities. We would like to give more power to local communities to take control of their local regeneration efforts. We want to adopt the community rights agenda, established by the Localism Act 2011. We believe that strong towns will help to develop strong communities, and cohesive and engaged communities will help to improve the whole area for the benefit of all. And that has an enormous spin-off effect into education and health and the economic drive. And, therefore, we really urge that this is something that Welsh Government should have a look at. 

[Inaudible.]—the time as well. 

I know. Finally, let me briefly touch on the importance of marketing our towns and communities better. I've already mentioned the Iron Man event that takes place in Tenby. We should be looking much more at destination marketing; that is something that really sits well with market towns and seaside towns. 

In short, we have a lot of towns with unique and varied histories. They tend to be in the far flung places. It can't all just be centred on big cities, large, large conurbations. We need just a little bit of that to help, because if you walk through rural parts of Wales, if you walk through some of these towns, and, in fact, not even so rural, as you will know yourself, Deputy Presiding Officer, but along the north Wales coast, there is a dearth—. There are closed high streets; there is wind whistling through these empty streets. We have a plan to make a difference, and we'd like you to help us to do that. 

I thank the Conservatives for actually bringing this debate under the title of 'community regeneration', and for reasons I'll expand upon in a moment, I won't be supporting the motion in their name; I will be supporting the Government's motion. But, actually, some of the characteristics that you've talked about that some coastal towns—not all, but some coastal towns—are affected by are not dissimilar to the same characteristics that are affecting Valleys communities. And it's curious, in the discussion that Mark Reckless has just had around what defines a market town—well, market towns, curiously, also do exist within parts of the south Wales Valleys as well; they're just not immense market towns, but they are markets. Maesteg itself is known as a market town destination, but it's also a lot of other things beside.

But what I want to talk to you about are some of the possible solutions going forward, and I think some of these are place-specific. They are to do with people and places and pride, and identifying what is unique and special about certain areas that we can build upon. Because I know that I've certainly got within my area—and I am going to be very parochial, because I'm going to put something of a wish list forward to Government in going forward as well—real assets that we can build upon in different areas. No one of my Valleys is actually the same. I will indeed give way. 

I just wanted to clarify one thing. I do understand that not all coastal towns are in need of that kind of support. But, like we do in much of the rest of Wales, you can actually have a fund and say what the eligibility criteria are. And you make the point about the Valleys towns, but a very clear report:

'Their location on the periphery of the country places them on the periphery of the economy, bringing consequential social problems. This combination of challenges warrants dedicated attention and support.'

Not my words—this is research. And, therefore, like other areas of Wales, we need to have a good, dedicated programme for those kinds of areas.

And in fact, it's an argument that former colleagues of mine in Westminster who represented those seaside areas put forward quite strongly, and repeatedly. And some of those are thematic funding areas, not coastal resort specific. So things like what once existed—the Future Jobs Fund, and things like that, with the UK Government—those were things that disappeared subsequently, but were replaced by Welsh Government funding. I'll turn to some of them now, because some of them I think can be thematic rather than purely coastal, and so on. And in saying this, I would remark that, in Bridgend and from the north Bridgend valleys perspective, we're not at the centre of a lot of these initiatives—we tend to be at one end of the health board, we tend to be at one end of the Cardiff city region, at one end of the metro, et cetera, et cetera—so we have to shout really loudly and argue the case. But, within what is available, we've been quite successful, but we need to do more.

So let me just turn to some of these. So if you look, for example, in the Garw and the Ogmore valleys in particular, they are in crying need of some civic renewal—empty buildings, empty shops that have been standing there for a long, long time. Now, the sort of approach that's been taken by Rhondda Cynon Taf council, and in fact that they are leading on, in terms of real spatial regeneration—physical transformation—that not only does shops and units but also does accommodation and above, we'd definitely benefit from that, and getting our act together to do that within those valley areas.

The regeneration that we're going to do with some of the last of the European money around Maesteg Town Hall, turning it from an old-fashioned town hall—it's been a brilliant venue for many, many years, but into a real cultural hub and venue that will do a range of civic matters there, and cultural matters. That will be a real hub for that community, and has real potential, working with the college and with others, to do a lot, lot more.

The Ewenny Road site, which Ministers will know, because I keep banging on about this, is nearly an 8 hectare site in the centre of Maesteg. It's been sitting empty for so long now. It's got issues to do with remediation on the land, but they've been there for some time. I think there are two or three Government departments involved in looking at it, but we just need to now pull it together. Because that could be a multi-use business and residential, and so on, right in the heart of one of our prime valleys.

Transport, for us, is a major issue around community regeneration. And it's across the valleys, as well as up and down the valleys. So, the sooner we can bring together not just the rail issues but the fast, speedy buses, and re-regulating the buses so we can decide where the routes go, and get people to work at the time they need to get to work, is critical as well. I'm not sure of the time, because I took an intervention, and I've gone well beyond here.

The other aspect I would say, which was mentioned in terms of seaside resorts as well, is the tourism and cultural potential here, because we have a great outdoors experience. If you do a figure-of-eight from Pontycymer in the centre of the Garw valley up one side of the glacial, and down the other, and then back up and round, you've just done a circuit as demanding as any day on the Tour du Mont Blanc in the French Alps. So we need to be making more of that. And the number of international cyclists who use the Bwlch mountain and the Ogmore valley as their training ground—up that hill and back down the other side as well. So we need to do more of this. But we have some of the tools at our disposal; what we need is the masterplanning to make this work.

And I suspect, with some of those thematic areas, it's equally what we need to do in seaside areas as well. It's looking at what funding is available, is there more needed—yes, absolutely—but what is available right now. And one of the things I would say as well, in future, one of the aspects—as we withdraw from the European Union—is to look at the thing that was remarked upon yesterday, which is additional flexibilities that could be used in those thematic areas to drive more regional and local priorities. That may mean we don't need a seaside fund, what we need is greater flexibility for people to decide what's important in their areas.

Small towns in Wales account for almost 40 per cent of the population of Wales. In constituencies like Aberconwy, almost the entire population is dependent on towns, such as Llanfairfechan, Llanrwst, Conwy, Penmaen-mawr, Betws-y-coed, and Llandudno of course, for banking, shops, libraries and many other service industries. In fact, FSB Cymru has found that only 8 per cent of the population feel that towns are no longer relevant.

By looking after our towns in Aberconwy and in Wales, we would reap rich dividends, building up our high streets, empowering our entrepreneurs and building up our tax revenue, and, in general, creating more money for our public services and placing more people in gainful employment. Unfortunately, though, many towns are experiencing challenges, such as struggling high streets.

In the most recent quarter, Wales has had a retail vacancy rate of 13.4 per cent. This is a higher shop vacancy rate than any other part of the UK, and in the four weeks between September and October last year, overall footfall declined by 5.2 per cent compared to 2018. As a Government, you must take urgent steps to help our businesses, our high streets and our communities.

Businesses in Wales are being hampered by high, non-domestic rates, with Welsh companies having to hand over more than half of their estimated annual rent in tax—that's 52.6p for every £1. It is time for you to follow the Welsh Conservative lead, and our continued calls to adopt a policy of up to £15,000 for 100 per cent rate relief. This would succeed in achieving real business growth. More so, as chairman of the cross-party group on small shops, I have been working with many others in our pursuit of seeing genuine relief reform, such as by merging the small business, high street and discretionary rate relief. Have you ever spoken to a business that has tried to access this much-needed funding?

It is fair to say that some town centres have benefited from Vibrant and Viable Places. However, I've already spoken about Aberconwy and the amount of business rates revenue that comes into Wales, yet, the regeneration investment in north Wales has been agreed and allocated across the region, with the concentrating of investment funding being outside Aberconwy. And that's in a letter to me from the Minister. So, it will come as no surprise to you, therefore, that I agree with the findings of the House of Lords Select Committee on Regenerating Seaside Towns and Communities that seaside towns have been neglected for too long. In fact, five of the 10 most deprived areas in Wales are located within towns. And the Welsh index of multiple deprivation has shown that there are pockets of high deprivation along the north Wales coast.

We need to help the businesses within them to thrive and develop and give communities a say on their own progression. For example, through co-production—thanks to Mark Isherwood making that very much in our Record of Proceedings—we could see people providing and receiving services—[Interruption.] Would you like an intervention?

No. You carry on. Leave the noises off and you carry on.

—share responsibility and work in equal relationships.

Now, according to the Carnegie UK Trust 2019 assessment, your mainstream policies are focused on collaboration rather than transformative co-production. There is a failure to sufficiently engage with communities. Problems with implementing the Localism Act 2011—as Angela Burns, my colleague, has mentioned here today—are proof of this, as provisions have not been enforced, such as the right to community challenge, to submit expressions of interest for running local authority services and bid for assets of community value. These are things that you can do in England, but not in Wales.

There are more simple steps that you can take to encourage co-production, such as the changes proposed by the future generations commissioner: a participatory budget process, early involvement of people in service development, and co-developing community spaces—

You are almost out of time.

I'm almost out of time.

There is the will for community involvement in town regeneration and progression in Aberconwy, but residents are facing barriers. Consequently, I support the calls on the Welsh Government to establish seaside town and market town funds. You've got the levers, you've even got the money. Just, please, work with our business owners, and together in that partnership we'll have far more money for our public services. Entrepreneurship, employment and ambition—that's what Wales needs, and it's sadly lacking at the moment.

'No deal' hasn't gone away, it's just been deferred, so we are going to have to be very imaginative in the way in which we're going to protect our communities. As the special rapporteur warns, it's going to affect the most vulnerable and disadvantaged members of society, who are going to be least able to cope with changes and will take the biggest hit. So, we're going to have to rely on our ingenuity to create and keep wealth in Wales if we are to avoid the significant public discontent, further division, and even instability that the special rapporteur warns about.

I was interested to listen to Huw Irranca-Davies about the Ewenny Road site, because I would recommend that he looks at the Goldsmith scheme in Norwich, which is in the centre of Norwich and which won the Stirling prize, and which has been a wonderful way of regenerating an area at the centre of a town. That's the sort of thing I would like to see. I feel that good planning is essential to good regeneration, because you can see how seaside towns like Llandudno, Conwy, Aberaeron, et cetera, they've all been well planned, and that's why they continue to thrive and people continue to want to live there. Other areas have had disastrous planning decisions imposed on them and, as a result, they have suffered. So, we need to ensure that we have really good planning in the way that we develop our towns in the future. I'm confident that we can do really exciting things now that we've got all the good examples from the innovative housing programme, and we need to ensure that we build on that.

Walking round my constituency in the last two or three months, I have been thinking quite hard about why some people keep their front gardens neat and tidy while others think it's fine to use them as a dog toilet or a rubbish dump. And I think this is a really important issue for people living in communities. Why should people have to put up with other people's selfishness and laziness? So, I think there's a real challenge for all local authorities to ensure that all residents are taking pride in their neighbourhood and playing their part rather than leaving it to other people to do. In the worst case, I have people saying, 'Why hasn't the council done anything about the litter?' The council doesn't throw the litter, actually. So, as well as celebrating the work that the voluntary litter pickers do, co-ordinated by Keep Wales Tidy—and I think this is a really good example of a very small amount of money that's invested in Keep Wales Tidy to co-ordinate these volunteer litter pickers, without which our communities would be much the poorer—I think there's a lot we can learn from places like Wigan, where the Wigan Deal has actually engaged the whole community in getting them to say what is important to them and how we can all take pride in our community and be part of it and ensure that we think it's—. They've got them saying, 'Together, we will create a clean, green place that we all look after and enjoy.' And I think we need to do that in all our communities to ensure that we're all doing that.

I want to also commend the work done by Swansea council in getting everybody involved in recycling, because it isn't fair if 80 per cent of people are doing their recycling and 10 per cent are saying, 'I can't be bothered; I'm just going to shove it in the black bag', and that increases the cost to councils for disposing of those black bags. And so, I think the work done by the trainee recycling officers to actually inspect black bags and talk to residents and say, 'You know, you will get fined if you don't change your ways' has actually saved £300,000 in just a few short months. And that's the sort of thing I would like to see all local authorities doing. Why is it that most of us recycle and some people don't recycle? Clearly, there can be mental health issues or learning difficulties, and those have to be taken into consideration, but in some cases it's just downright laziness and 'I can't be bothered', and that's the sort of thing we simply can't accept. So, I welcome this debate.

I'm very glad that Mike Hedges has seen off the pseudo arguments about Communities First. Communities First wasn't working well, but it could have been, in my view, revised, and we certainly need poverty eradication programmes to keep going on ensuring we have a more cohesive society. Otherwise, we are really setting up problems for the future.

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government, Hannah Blythyn?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank all the Members who've contributed today, with a wide range of different and many thoughtful contributions to this wide-ranging debate and discussion? We talked quite a bit today about supporting both our people and our places and the importance of supporting and enabling that sense of pride in place in our communities, and that actually investing in communities is not just about the economic benefits but those broader benefits bringing communities together and increasing cohesive communities.

This Welsh Government wants our communities and towns to have a fantastic future as well as a great past with the many historic towns we can boast of in Wales. And we have recognised, and people have recognised in this debate today, that the role and purpose of our towns are changing and we need to rise to that challenge to reimagine and reinvent our communities and town centres.

That's why this Government is providing significant regeneration support to over 50 towns and communities across Wales, which is unlocking £800 million of investment between 2014 and 2022. Whether it's old chapels or neglected town halls, decaying cinemas or now defunct bingo halls, whether it's struggling high streets or derelict properties, our investment is helping to breathe new life into them. That may be as offices or enterprise hubs, community or care hubs or events-based and leisure facilities, improved retail offers and even new homes. And we've heard from Huw Irranca-Davies about what's happening with Maesteg town hall as well. So, we're helping communities to repurpose their town centres and buildings for the challenges of the twenty-first century.

The original motion somewhat implies that seaside and market towns aren't currently benefiting from this investment when many of them are indeed. In north Wales, Colwyn Bay is getting over £3 million of regeneration investment to transform town-centre buildings and bring vacant commercial floor space back into use. It's something I've seen for myself first-hand and the difference that that is making to footfall within the town as well. And just along the coast—huge investment in Rhyl. It includes redeveloping vast swathes of rundown property in the heart of town and repurposing the promenade, with much more in the pipeline, and I'm not just saying that because the Deputy Presiding Officer is in the chair. [Interruption.] [Laughter.] Worth a try. In Barry we are supporting the development of the Goods Shed building, bringing along with it 120 jobs, work and community space and a food and leisure offer. We're also providing nearly £1 million to improve commercial and retail space and to convert space within commercial properties into residential use and a £1 million loan fund under supporting town-centre social housing projects.

Turning briefly to market towns and a few examples: in Haverfordwest, we have given in principle support for a £3 million plus project to renovate and convert the Ocky White department store into a food emporium, and in addition a £2.75 million loan, providing 23 residential units, a youth enterprise and commercial trading area and refurbishing a multistorey car park to increase town-centre footfall.

In mid Wales, six market towns are benefiting from £2.14 million to improve town-centre properties and bring vacant properties back into use. And Lampeter and Newtown have also secured funding for projects, with a combined value of £5 million. And in Lampeter, the redeveloped Canolfan Dulais will provide community services alongside a care-focused enterprise centre and will support town-centre footfall and employment. Seaside towns can also access our coastal communities fund, which has provided £16 million to coastal areas since 2011.

We've talked about different funds today and I think one of the things that we have—. I wouldn't say we have enough money, but I think we have enough funds and, in fact, we have probably too many. And I'm more interested in actually how we can consolidate ones rather than creating new ones and maximising the impact that they have in towns and communities the length and breadth of the country.

We're providing lots of support, but years of austerity and an impact on our finances mean that we unfortunately cannot intervene everywhere. So, we want to help empower communities to take the lead.

The recent Carnegie UK Trust report 'Turnaround Towns UK' highlights Cardigan's shift from a failing market town to an example of best practice in using both its physical and historical assets. Cardigan has benefited from our support but demonstrates too the importance of empowered local leaders who know their towns and are key in driving change. They're also embracing digital technology to help drive this all forward.

The Government is committing support and engaging with our communities, as demonstrated by our Valleys taskforce, which has worked with communities to develop plans and ideas that help tackle the challenges faced by the communities but also celebrate and build on their strength. I'm keen as we move forward to look at how we actually better empower communities to be part of this, and involve town and community councils and other community organisations.

We're working to develop new approaches to support our communities through Brexit and beyond, building on experiences such as the LEADER approach and drawing on the rural development programme. Communities will have a say in how future regional investment is targeted within their local areas.

The UK Government's tax and welfare regime and years of austerity have had a huge impact on poverty rates in Wales. This Government has taken a cross-Government approach to tackling poverty and our economic action plan and programmes such as Flying Start, Communities for Work and the pupil development grant and Families First are vital in narrowing the gap between our most deprived and thriving areas.

This Government is strongly committed to supporting and to backing our towns and communities to not just survive but to thrive. We are certainly not complacent and we can always build on what we are already doing. I intend to say more on this in the coming weeks in this Chamber on how we support our communities to move forward to have a fantastic future as well as a great past.

Thank you. Can I call on David Melding to reply to the debate?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank everyone for taking part in this debate? A lot of contributions—I won't be able to get through them all.

Mark started with his usual gusto and just the sheer grasp of the subject that he's had because this has meant so much to him throughout his career as an Assembly Member, in which he's championed the whole concept of co-delivery, co-production and that being at the heart of community regeneration.

In a slightly odd contribution, I have to say, later from Mark Reckless, we were told that 'co-productive' is not a word. The computer had said 'no' when Mark looked it up. [Laughter.] Well, I don't know where you've been, Mark, for the last four years but you couldn't have listened to any of Mr Isherwood's wonderful contributions. And he's been with co-production a lot longer than four years as well, so let me tell you, it's there, it's been established as a great idiom and one we should live up to.

Leanne, with her typical generosity and constant search for consensus, flatly condemned the barefaced cheek of the Welsh Conservative Party for even introducing this debate and then reminded us that it was all Mrs Thatcher's fault and then offered some rather vague prescriptions about how she would deal with structural change, forgetting that independence would start us all off with a 25 per cent deficit year in, year out on our spending. But anyway, I'll leave the party opposite to deal with these contradictions.

Mike said that poverty is down to economics—well, fundamentally, I don't think many would disagree with that—and that he was sceptical about single anti-poverty programmes in trying to turn back that economic tide. And then in his speech, he went on to show how specific approaches could bring great benefits—back-to-work training schemes, educational attainment and many others. So, I wasn't quite sure where you were at the end of your contribution, Mike, but I did think it did display what coherent and focused community regeneration schemes could do in terms of upskilling our citizens.

Oscar talked about the need for bustling high streets and the current high vacancy rates that we have in far too many of our towns, and this is something that other speakers also picked up.

Mark, in the other part of his contribution, praised the concept of redundancy and that we should be dramatically closing down Government programmes that don't work. Well, you know, that's true, but we were calling for an effective community regeneration programme. We were well aware of the problems with the Welsh Government's scheme. So, that was the focus of our debate.

Angela then rebutted Mark's epistemological attack on seaside towns and market towns. This was rather a theme of Mr Reckless this afternoon, in his search for definitions. But I thought Angela dealt with the practicalities of these matters, and pointed to that excellent report from the House of Lords select committee, and then the need for destination marketing. The success stories are incredible, and the towns that have not yet achieved that—they have great potential to do the same. We had a hint of this, I thought, from Huw, when his was talking about Maesteg town hall redevelopment, and its status as a hub. It reminds me of my own home town, Neath—it wasn't the town hall, but the Gwyn Hall, where there's been a great example, I think, of just that.

Janet said 40 per cent of the Welsh population live in small towns. I've no idea if that's true, but I was very impressed with the assertion, anyway, and it's a reminder of how important this is to our community life. The Federation of Small Businesses has said how important towns are to our economic future, and we all agree with that. Jenny Rathbone, further on this theme, perhaps, was just saying how important good planning is and how it's needed in terms of town regeneration and development, and I certainly agree with that.

Then the Minister ended with a calm defence of Government policy, and I thank her for her approach. It was a fairly constructive one, and no doubt you've listened to the debate this afternoon, and I do hope that we can see more effective community regeneration, which clearly would have support on all sides of this Assembly.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] So, we will defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.