The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 3 and 4 in the name of Siân Gwenllian, and amendment 2 in the name of Rebecca Evans.

The next item is the Conservative Party debate on workforce skills post Brexit, and I call on Mohammad Asghar to move the motion. Mohammad Asghar.

Motion NDM7234 Darren Millar

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Recognises the importance of further education provision in developing the skills of the Welsh workforce to meet the demands of the Welsh economy post-Brexit.

2. Calls on the Welsh Government to invest in the people of Wales by:  

a) increasing funding into further education;

b) expanding the number of degree apprenticeships in Wales;

c) creating an adult learning allowance to help people enhance and develop their skills; and

d) developing an Institute of Technology in north Wales.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. It gives me great pleasure to open this debate today on recognising the importance of further education in developing the skills of the Welsh workforce. The Welsh economy is failing to meet its full potential. It faces a number of fundamental challenges. These include a skills gap in advanced technologies, and the requirement of a workforce with the flexibility to adapt to the ever-changing economy of the world. 

The importance of ensuring that Wales has a sufficiently skilled, flexible workforce to help create a resilient economy and to meet the demands of employers is clear. The Welsh Government itself states that:

'Every person should be equipped with the skills they need to get a job and the opportunity to develop new skills through their working life.'

Quote closed. However, a skills gap has developed in Wales that is costing businesses approximately £155 million.

In 2019, the 'Open University Business Barometer' found that 67 per cent of senior business leaders reported that their organisation is currently experiencing a skills shortage; 54 per cent of employers said that they could not recruit enough staff with the skills they need, particularly in the field of engineering. A recent Barclays LifeSkills report found that more than half of Welsh over-16s are failing to demonstrate all the employability skills needed in the future workplace. The figures regarding digital skills are also a matter of concern. According to the Office for National Statistics, Wales has the lowest proportion of internet users who possess the five basic digital skills. Only 66 per cent of internet users in Wales have these basic five skills, compared to a UK average of 79 per cent.

The importance of further education in tackling these problems cannot be overstated. However, ColegauCymru pointed out that there is a need for longer term funding arrangements to be put in place. The current one-year funding cycle hinders long-term thinking and planning. Overall grant funding for the FE sector has fallen in real terms by 13 per cent between 2011-12 and 2016-17. Funding for part-time provision and specific programmes fell over 70 per cent in real terms. The Welsh Conservatives believe this funding uncertainty must end to enable further education colleges to continue to deliver leading skills training and encourage more people into FE and lifelong learning.

Not everyone is able to take time out of work to participate in full-time education. The Open University in Wales says that education should not be a one-off for young people; it should be lifelong, throughout a person's career. We need a comprehensive adult education, skills and employment funding plan to grow our own resident workforce. Whilst the Welsh Government provides a grant for those aged 19 and above studying in FE, both the numbers of applications and the number of successful applicants has decreased. We would introduce an adult learning allowance to use for a degree course, technical training or specific courses. This would make the skills, courses and training more accessible for people, regardless of their financial position.

Wales is behind the curve in rolling out degree apprenticeships. [Interruption.] Wales is behind the curve in rolling out degree apprenticeships. In response to increasing employers' demands for higher level skills and work-based learning routes to a degree, degree apprenticeships have become an increasingly desirable mode of delivery. In Wales, the number of degree apprenticeship routes is limited. In England, there are currently 70 degree apprenticeship standards approved for delivery. We need to significantly expand the number of degree apprenticeships available, particularly in the new sectors. We also need to level up opportunity across Wales, by ensuring that everyone can fulfil their potential, irrespective of where they live or where they come from.

Wales has around 14 further education colleges, but only two are located in north Wales. We believe the potential of north Wales should be enhanced and nurtured to make the most of the opportunities that will be created by the north Wales growth deal. We would address this imbalance in the provision by developing an institute of technology in north Wales, focused on STEM subjects—science, technology, engineering and mathematics.

Presiding Officer, to meet the goal of strengthening the Welsh economy, we must focus on some of the key issues facing us. These include the skills gap that threatens to leave Welsh workers behind the rest of the United Kingdom. Only then can we take advantage of the opportunities created by technological advancement. We must take the action required to help people meet the needs of the ever-changing economy of Wales, United Kingdom and the world. We can play a great part to make sure our lives are better. Thank you.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Thank you. I have selected the four amendments to the motion and I call on Bethan Sayed to move amendments 1, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Bethan.

Amendment 1—Siân Gwenllian

In point 2, insert as new sub-point after sub-point (b) and re-number accordingly:

'increasing support networks for apprentices via formal partnership arrangements with further education colleges;'

Amendment 3—Siân Gwenllian

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to recognise the importance of Erasmus+ in attracting people to Wales to meet the demands of the Welsh economy via the further education and higher education sectors and commit to opposing any attempt by the UK Government to exit the programme in 2021.

Amendment 4—Siân Gwenllian

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to create better conditions for developing the skills of the Welsh workforce by increasing the first year minimum wage for an apprentice to the standard, national minimum wage, relevant to the person's age group.

Amendments 1, 3 and 4 moved.

Thank you. I'm pleased to be able to take part in this debate. I won't go through the whole of the motion, because I believe that we've exercised much of that in previous debate, so I'll go through the amendments.

I think it is a bit ironic for the Tories to say that they want people to fulfil potential, because our first amendment is something that may be threatened by that, because of the prospect of the precariousness of the future of Erasmus+, which has been a vital part of the education mix in higher education and further education for many years, and youth organisations and schools can also apply for Erasmus as well as adult learners. The skill enhancement potential is clear and Erasmus can offer invaluable experience of new ways of working and studying, allowing insight into different practices from across Europe and greatly improving employability and the prospects of those who participate. Last year, ColegauCymru secured £1.57 million of Erasmus+ funding for FE colleges and colleges remain committed to supporting European mobility for their learners and staff, despite the uncertainty of Brexit. And this funding will enable over 640 vocational learners, apprentices and staff from colleges across Wales to take part in that exciting training programme.

For some students who come from very socially deprived backgrounds in Wales, this is a real life-changing experience for them. One childcare student who went to do a two-week work placement in Italy didn't even have a passport and had never travelled before on her own. So, in fact, if she hadn't have had that opportunity, she may never have had the prospect, then, of studying in another country and widening her horizons, which I think some of us in this room need to do more of.

The UK Government have said, and I quote:

'The Government is committed to continuing the academic relationship between the UK and the EU, including through the next Erasmus+ programme if it is in our interests to do so.'

How is it not in the interests of Wales to be a part of this programme? I don't know why they had even bothered to use that word. They can see, can they not, how important Erasmus is to the people of Wales? They would be foolish to end their involvement.

With regard to our amendment 1, an apprenticeship should not only be considered an access point into one type of skilled employment, but an educational experience as well. And many apprentices do tell us, and they've told my office, that they would like the option and access to opportunities for other educational and skills engagement. And, particularly, young apprentices and those on foundation level apprenticeships tell us that at times they can feel disengaged and not part of the wider further education community. It's also crucial to maintain quality, and whilst the great majority of providers offer apprenticeships to a high standard, with a focus on the intended skills and work, some do not and some are better than others.

I've said it before in this Chamber, and I'll say it again: we were told of one example where a young woman was in an apprenticeship at an architect's firm in Wales when it emerged that at some point during the apprenticeship a receptionist went off sick, she was sucked into being that receptionist and then never went back to doing the actual apprenticeship course she was there to do. So, I think that's criminal, really, that a woman was deprived of that experience.

This speaks to a need to have a better, more formal and uniform process of ongoing engagement with apprenticeships, which could include all apprentices under the age of 21 being formally partnered with an FE college in order to secure appropriate support, including access to college days or off-site training/education for key skills or other education choices that the apprentice may want, and in partnership with FE colleges to ensure access to student voices within that further education situation.

Time is tight, so our amendment 4: living costs and pay are one of the most significant barriers to apprenticeships and on-the-job skills training. While we in Plaid Cymru would like the Assembly to have powers over statutory wage levels, we don't. But in principle we should recognise pay as a significant barrier.

The Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, which I sit on, recognised this problem in a report delivered in 2018, where we said that a living support grant for apprenticeships, comparable to living support given to those remaining in full-time education, was needed. Currently the national minimum wage for all first-year apprentices, whether 16, 26 or 46 years of age, is £3.90 for every hour in work and training or study. That's £7,605 per year. How does this allow someone who may have financial commitments and wants an apprenticeship the ability to retrain? We don't think that that happens very well at the moment and we believe that this should be rectified to increase first-year pay to the corresponding minimum wage relevant to someone's age.

There are many other points that we would have liked to have added to this motion, but we can't discuss that today. We should be looking at the Augar review for England so that we are encouraging more part-time study. I know that the Minister actually has worked really hard in this area and has improved those statistics. We'd also like to see degree apprenticeships expand further, understanding the need to match the numbers qualifying with skills needs, but this cannot be the only focus because it won't be sustainable.

The last point I'd make is a point I made in questions to the Minister this week. It's about significantly looking into how we can address the brain drain here in Wales and how we can support and encourage people to stay in Welsh institutions so that we can encourage those institutions to thrive and to prosper for the future.

I'm going to call on the Minister for Education to move formally amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Amendment 2—Rebecca Evans

In point 2, delete sub-point 2(d) and replace with:

'working with FEIs, universities and employers to ensure that provision meets the evolving technology needs of the economy.'

Amendment 2 moved.

Formally move.

Thank you. Paul Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to take part in this debate this afternoon. The previous speakers have championed the importance of the FE sector here in Wales, and highlighted some excellent examples of the skills and courses that our FE providers deliver. As we leave the European Union, it is essential that our providers are able to continue to deliver these vital skills.

In my own constituency, as the Minister knows, Pembrokeshire College offers a wealth of different programmes from traditional A-levels to apprenticeships to work-based learning courses, and it's that variety of choice that makes FE so attractive to many people across Wales.

Now, not everyone can study between the hours of 9 a.m. and 5 p.m., not everyone is suited to a structured academic degree, and so the flexible learning opportunities offered by FE providers are vital to parents, older people and those in full-time work. FE providers like Pembrokeshire College open their doors to students of all ages, not just to young people between the ages of 16 and 21, and so they're very much at the heart of upskilling the nation and providing lifelong learning opportunities.

Of course, it's especially important to recognise the vital contribution that further education and vocational skills make to learners, but they also make a very important contribution to the Welsh economy too. A recent study, conducted by the economic modelling company, Emsi, has shown that we receive £7.90 in return for every £1 invested in FE colleges in Wales, with the average annual rate of return on their investment being 24 per cent. I think we should take a moment to reflect on just how valuable that investment is. 

Colleges bring wealth into their region through the employment of staff spending on goods and services, and workforce skills that are added to a region by students who find work in the area after leaving. In that sense, FE colleges and providers are very much social enterprises, working with learners of all ages by increasing their employability and raising their individual potential. Members will have heard me call for more of this type of activity within our school system as a way of promoting enterprise and life skills, and I hope the Welsh Government will look at encouraging secondary schools to establish social enterprises to be managed and run by pupils.

Of course, one of the most important ways of delivering a strong FE sector in Wales is by ensuring that the sector is funded on a more long-term basis, as Mohammad Asghar mentioned earlier. The Wales Audit Office has called for a more integrated and longer term approach to delivering FE funding in the past, because a longer term approach would certainly help colleges plan more effectively in the medium term and address sustainability issues within the sector. 

Now, I remain unconvinced that the move to introduce one-year funding allocations has resulted in better support for FE institutions to plan for the medium term, and, in fact, it's more likely to be the case that this has had a negative effect on attracting students. The inconsistent funding arrangements in the sector have also hit staffing numbers too. We know that the total number of staff in FE providers was just over 9,300 in 2012-13. It then dropped to around 7,800 in 2015-16, before then increasing to around 8,500 in 2017-18. Therefore, it's quite clear that the FE workforce needs investment to make sure that its skills and expertise remain up to date and can maintain links with other industries.

Wales is an ambitious nation, but we now need to underpin that ambition with the right networks to ensure that local opportunities are on offer. We also need to ensure that any strategy is co-ordinated with other Government departments so that the full picture is being considered. For example, it's crucial that local areas have public transport networks that encourage learners to take up courses, particularly for learners in rural areas. We also need to ensure that learners have the opportunity to study through the medium of Welsh, and we also need to ensure that learners with additional needs also have access to further education opportunities. Therefore, when the Welsh Government considers how best to support the FE sector in Wales, it is essential that it takes an approach that encompasses all departments, so that Ministers are considering the bigger picture when it comes to supporting the sector.

Deputy Presiding Officer, for Wales to flourish in the future, we must ensure that the FE sector is sufficiently supported and that learners have access to the courses and programmes that they offer. Further education providers are responsive to the skills needs of their local area and work closely with local employers. Pembrokeshire College recently hosted their fifth employer lunch event, sponsored by Dragon LNG and supported by local employers like the Port of Milford Haven, Pembrokeshire County Council and the Hywel Dda University Health Board. It's this type of collaboration that we must build on and develop to help ensure that learners are leaving education with the skills they need for the workplace. Therefore, I urge the Minister to work with stakeholders to carefully consider the future shape of the FE sector and ensure that it receives the crucial investment that it needs, and I therefore urge Members to support our motion.

I feel I have to begin my contribution by acknowledging the huge number of initiatives the Welsh Government have introduced over recent years to enhance the provision of a skilled Welsh workforce, particularly where they have shifted the focus to vocational training. We should also acknowledge the positive impact that skilled immigrant workers have contributed to the economy of Wales, but the fact remains that we have become far too reliant on immigrant labour, very often to the detriment of our indigenous population. I use the word 'indigenous', but I'd like to point out that in their document 'Prosperity for All', the Labour Government has used the word 'indigenous' on many occasions. [Interruption.] As I mentioned in the earlier debate, the health service in the UK turns down—[Interruption.] The health service in the UK turns down 80,000 suitably qualified British nurse applicants every year simply because it is cheaper to plunder third world countries for their trained staff.

There's no doubt that the Welsh Government has, especially over recent years, greatly expanded its skills-enhancing facilities, both in the FE and HE institutions. The flexible funding facilities now in place have greatly enhanced the ability for students to increase their skills on a part-time basis, and many are taking up the opportunities offered by the Open University to obtain higher qualifications. There has truly been a sea change in the approach taken to occupational qualifications, and I believe that this is now beginning to bear fruit in the number of the new vocational apprenticeships being taken up. Whilst we all acknowledge that it will take some time to make us less reliant on European labour—indeed, we shall always be reliant to a certain degree on workers from across the globe to fill jobs that cannot, for a variety of reasons, be filled by the indigenous population. But this, in many ways, is a desirable situation; the mixing of people from different countries helps to emphasise how alike we all are and why our country should co-operate for the well-being of all of us.

Will the Member give way?

Yes, of course.

There seems to be some objection from Labour Members to his use of the word 'indigenous'. I wonder whether, when people come to make their lives in Wales, it's right that we should welcome them as we wish or whether we should denigrate those individuals as 'visitors'.

Absolutely. I think that, if they come to live in Wales, they become part of the Welsh economy.

So, let's not look on Brexit as a negative thing, but rather as an opportunity to build a vibrant, outgoing nation, embracing our diaspora with the world in general, not just Europe. By thus building a strong, vibrant economy we shall create, by default, a skilled workforce that is agile, changing those skills to adapt to changes taking place either in their own work environment or in seeking new job opportunities.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute in the debate today. It is worth reflecting that two thirds of young people do not attend university, and, actually, the FE sector, whether it be part time or full time, is the main learning plank for them to enhance their career prospects. I think that's an important consideration. The leader of the opposition did touch on the enormous amount of staff that are tied up in the teaching in our FE colleges the length and breadth of Wales, which in 2013 was 9,330, sadly declined to 7,815 in 2015-16, and has seen a welcome increase up to about 8,500, but that's still some 800 teaching positions down on where we were some six or seven years ago, and that is a critical part of the teaching element that does need to be rectified if we're going to increase the productivity and upskilling of our workforce here in Wales.

It's also worth reflecting that, in our FE colleges, for example, nearly 170,000 students, in one shape or form, participate in educational experience within FE colleges the length and breadth of Wales, but I'd like to focus on the agricultural sector and in particular, sadly, the very, very small number of agricultural apprenticeships that are offered here in Wales. It seems to be that 1 per cent of apprenticeships offered in Wales in the last two academic years were in agriculture, and that surely is a very worrying concern. Because, obviously, from my own personal experience, if I could touch on that for a moment, the way the agricultural industry has developed over the last 30 years, it's almost today unrecognisable to where we were in the 1990s. And that's driven by consumer choice, because obviously consumers have an ability to choose the product they wish to buy and the consumer wants to be more informed about how that product has been developed and how that product has been produced, and in particular how that product is presented on the shelves of our supermarkets.

So, we need an agricultural workforce that is skilled, that is in touch with its consumer base, whereas maybe 30 to 40 years ago it was traditional that many farmers, just as soon as they'd left the farm gate, paid no attention at all to the way the product was delivered and what added value can be put into that product. And that's where FE colleges have a critical role to play, I would suggest. And so we do desperately need to increase that percentage of agricultural students that see their learning environment in the FE sector. I'd be grateful if the Minister, in her response today, could give us some indication of how the Welsh Government will look to increase those numbers of agricultural apprenticeships that are available via the FE sector, because staying at 1 per cent is something that's not going to be acceptable in the future, in particular as nearly 4 per cent of the workforce is based in the agricultural industry.

And it is also worth reflecting that, as the Welsh economy faces its unique challenges, demographically that's one of the biggest challenges we face, because between 2016 and 2041 the number of 16 to 64-year-olds is set to decrease by nearly 5 per cent. So, if we're going to increase the productivity of our workforce, and in particular our overall economy, we need to make sure that the skills levels do increase so, ultimately, per worker we can get more work and productive work that adds value to our overall economy. And that ultimately then will drive up wage levels, which proves to have a more prosperous economy. And how do you drive up wage levels? Well, that's by upskilling that very workforce that we spend so much time, week in, week out, talking about here.

And so, again, I would very much welcome to understand how the Minister, along with our FE colleges and those within the sector, will seek to drive up that productivity that, sadly, in Wales has been so stubbornly behind the rest of the United Kingdom. I think I'm correct in saying that, on GVA per hour worked, the only part of the United Kingdom that is behind us is Northern Ireland. Surely, with the 14 colleges that we have here in Wales and some of the excellent facilities those colleges have invested in in recent years—. Cardiff and Vale College just down the road on Dumballs Road is an exemplar of good progress, and, in my own region, many students also access Bridgend College and the Pencoed campus. So, we do see the campuses there, but what we're doing is seeing this stubborn lack of productivity feeding into the economy overall. In particular, if the Minister looks to her own area of Powys, for example, where productivity is 35 per cent below the UK average, I'm sure that that's something that the Minister will focus on, and seek to try and address and reverse that 35 per cent decline in productivity that has Powys, for example—the largest county within Wales, and a large agricultural county—lagging so far behind. Because that's not good for local services and it's not good for the local economy in particular, because that keeps low wage levels within that particular area.

So, I do hope that there'll be a positive discussion about the important role that further education plays within our education estate here in Wales—the recognition of the size of the FE sector, but the importance of both part-time learning and full-time learning within that particular sphere of education here in Wales. And let's not forget that there is a good news story to say about FE, but we mustn't also take our eye off the ball about where some of these stubborn problems exist around productivity, around correcting the demographic problems that we face with a declining workforce aged between 16 and 64. And, above all, making sure that we can actually drive forward that experience that encourages more people to access FE education, both by investing financially and investing in the courses available, and that means putting more lecturers and more teachers into those colleges so that we address that shortfall. I hope that Members will support the motion that's before them this afternoon.

Skills have become our Welsh dragon's Achilles' heel. Sixty-seven per cent of senior business leaders have reported that their organisation is currently experiencing a skills shortage; 54 per cent of employers said that they could not recruit enough staff with the skills they required. And the skills shortage is costing business in Wales approximately £155.2 million. 

So that Welsh businesses can make the most of the expected benefits of Brexit, the skills of our workforce must be developed to meet the demands of the Welsh economy. If you don't believe me, the Wales Centre for Public Policy found that

'there is good evidence that skills…are important factors in driving growth in lagging regions.'

Central to strengthening skills, of course, is fair funding for further education. ColegauCymru has highlighted that the current one-year funding cycle hinders longer term planning, and the Graystone review recommended that you should move towards a three to five-year planning cycle. Also, the Wales Audit Office has called for a long-term approach to FE funding. So, really, there's no excuse now for these recommendations not to be implemented.

Similarly, I support calls for the creation of an adult learning allowance. As the Open University in Wales has argued, education should not be a one-off for young people. The number of successful applicants for the learning grant for those aged 19 and above has decreased. Less than 1 per cent of those who participate in apprenticeships and workplace learning schemes are older people. These facts actually contradict your own aim of providing people with equal opportunities to gain skills for life. There is even worse news when considering the Older People's Commissioner for Wales's finding that the economy is increasingly now becoming rather dependent on our older workers. Clearly, I would hope to hear you address this today and to carefully consider our plan to boost lifelong learning through the introduction of an adult learning allowance.

Now, of equal interest to Aberconwy is how to improve skills across north Wales more generally. I've been working with others to set the ball rolling last term, with a written Assembly question asking for private sector influence on skills taught in further education. Employers are supposed to be able to influence through the regional skills partnership. However, the Economy, Infrastructure, and Skills Committee found that the role of the partnerships in developing the Welsh skills base remains unclear.

We have two excellent FE colleges in north Wales, and I would in particular like to pay tribute to the excellent work of Mr Lawrence Wood, principal of Llandrillo college. He has recently seen an extensive refurbishment of the institute of health and social care, which enables students to explore all aspects of bedroom care and learn in a hospital ward simulation suite, using virtual reality equipment to explore organs and blood—just like being inside a human body. Also, his college is working with the north Wales growth deal, UK Government and Welsh Government to deliver a £14 million project.

The aims of the north Wales tourism and hospitality centre of excellence also include the provision of targeted skills development in the region to accelerate the growth of the tourism and hospitality sector. This is brand new, this is inspirational, but we need to be doing more to connect high-quality teaching to business. One answer would be to create a science, technology, engineering and mathematics-focused institute of technology in north Wales. It would certainly help to ensure that my residents and businesses can influence and secure skills needed in this region. In fact, it could actually be one of the treatments that our Welsh economic dragon’s Achilles' heel—skills—needs. Thank you.

Can I call on the Minister for Education, Kirsty Williams?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. It's been interesting, and sometimes illuminating, to hear the contributions this afternoon, but I think we can all agree that developing the skills of the workforce is essential if Wales is to thrive and prosper post Brexit. 

This Government is committed to supporting FE, HE and apprenticeships to ensure our people have the necessary skills to meet the challenges of a post-Brexit economy and, after all, uniquely within the UK, Wales responded to the challenge of leaving the EU with a dedicated transition fund, and this has already resulted in an additional £10 million of investment specifically for education and skills. From this fund, over £6 million will support employers in the automotive and the aerospace sectors, enabling them to forward projects to address potential skills deficits exacerbated by leaving the EU. Alongside this, £3.5 million has been allocated to enhance our international education links, maintaining our reputation as a welcoming place for students despite the decision to leave the EU, as well as our dedicated scheme to offer more outward mobility opportunities for Welsh students. 

Now, the Conservative motion that we're debating today predominantly calls for investment in degree apprenticeships, in adult learning allowances and in the further education sector more generally, all of which, Deputy Presiding Officer, are featured in the Welsh Government's draft budget. Janet Finch-Saunders, in her contribution, said she couldn't understand what was stopping us from moving to a three-year funding cycle. Well, let me give you a very good reason—one very good reason—Janet: I do not have a budget for next year. I cannot—[Interruption.] I cannot possibly give FE colleges a three-year budget when I only have a year's budget of my own. 

Now, in total—[Interruption.] In total, in the new year—[Interruption.] In total, the further education budget is set to increase at the start of this new financial year by over £25 million, including additional funding to support mental health, funding for professional learning for those working in FE, and funding to support pension and pay pressures. [Interruption.] Yes.

I just wanted to know, of the £24 million—. Because I chair the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee; we did ask the Minister who came in there how much of that money would be going to apprenticeships through the medium of the Welsh language. Because we didn't find fully information about how much that would be, and, if you could clarify, that would be very helpful. 

Well, my colleague, the Minister for the economy, will have to clarify that, because actually apprenticeships fall under his department, not within the education department. But I will ensure that that information is made available to you. 

The motion does discuss—[Interruption.] The motion does discuss degree apprenticeships, which, again, are already a feature in the draft budget. Both the Minister for the economy and I remain committed to the expansion of degree apprenticeships where they work for the benefit of employers and learners. Now, it seemed to pass some of the speakers by, but we already have a pilot running designated to create an integrated programme that has the credibility and prestige of an academic degree and the applied industry skills that you would expect to find in an apprenticeship. Those pilots are already up and running, with students recruited and currently studying for degree apprenticeships in digital, in engineering and in advanced manufacturing. Now, this is something that I'm sure that we can all agree we have to get right, and let us not forget that, only this month, a think tank run by a former adviser to the Westminster Government stated that half of the apprenticeship courses in England could be considered fake, while finding examples where existing undergraduate programmes were, in essence, simply being rebadged as an apprenticeship, rather than the approach that we are taking here in Wales. So, let me be clear that the future development of the degree apprenticeship programme in Wales will be dependent on the outcome of an independent evaluation and value-for-money considerations, and I think that's in sharp contrast to what we can see happening across the border.

The motion also calls for the creation of an adult learning allowance, and clearly some of the Conservative speakers have missed the fact that in Wales we are leading the way in this area with the establishment of personal learning accounts. Now, this initiative, piloted at the moment by both Coleg Gwent and Llandrillo Menai, is available to people who are currently in employment but are earning less than £26,000 a year. It ensures that people have an opportunity to obtain the skills, knowledge and qualifications they need either to embark on a career change to a better-paid job or to be able to find opportunities within their current work for advancement. I'm looking for an early opportunity to expand that pilot to another setting within Wales.

Mohammad Asghar spent a lot of time quoting the Open University and the need to support part-time education. This country is unique in the fact that we do not make a distinction between support available either for undergraduate or postgraduate, full-time or part-time, and I am delighted that, since the introduction of our student finance reform package, the Open University here in Wales is reporting a 46 per cent increase in the number of people beginning to undertake a degree with them—a 46 per cent increase—and we're only in the second academic year of those reforms. 

Can I also say—can I also say—that we need to look at skills on a wider level? Whilst we absolutely need to ensure that skills are addressed at a lower level, we also want to see more people studying at a higher level, including Master's, and I have set myself some very stretching targets for the number of Welsh students I want to see studying for a Master's. But I have to say, since the start of this session of this National Assembly for Wales, we have seen a 33 per cent increase in those starting Master's programmes—a 33 per cent increase.

We also have an innovative scheme to support Master's programmes for the over-60s. Because of Treasury rules in London, we cannot allow the over-60s to have access to the student loan book, but we were able to find a workaround, and, therefore, if you're over 60 in Wales and you want to study for a Master's you will receive support from the Welsh Government via our Welsh universities.

Quite rightly, Bethan asked about what we're going to do to attract more people to return to Wales. Now, we have universal support for Master's students regardless of which part of the UK they are studying in, but if you return to Wales or come to Wales to study for a Master's in certain key areas you will have a bursary on top of what you can claim and what you can apply for from the usual student support system.

Paul Davies mentioned the issue of Welsh-medium provision. I'm committed to expanding Welsh medium provision in the FE sector. That's why, since coming into office, we have increased the role of the coleg cenedlaethol, not just to cover HE, but also to cover FE. I'm delighted with the work that they have done, alongside ColegauCymru, to establish a very clear plan of how we can increase Welsh-medium provision in the FE sector.

Andrew R.T. Davies, you're absolutely right—we need a renaissance in agricultural training for our young people if we're to have a vibrant agricultural sector in the future, and I have already had numerous conversations with the providers that we already have at an FE level on what a reformed curriculum can look like, making sure that children who are coming out—'children', they're all children to me; young people, sorry—young people who are coming out of those colleges have got the work-ready qualifications, skills and competencies to be able to be really successful in that industry. [Interruption.] Of course.

[Inaudible.] On this specific point, because it has been stubbornly low at only 1 per cent—the number of agricultural apprenticeships—out of a figure of in excess of 30,000 apprenticeships. Where, with these discussions, do you believe that figure might be in two or three years' time? Are we generally going to see an uplift in the number of agricultural apprenticeships? I'm sure no-one wants to keep it at that, but we need to see a roadmap to lift these numbers.  

As I said, I'm not responsible for apprenticeships, but I am responsible for our FE provision, and I do want to be able to work with our colleges to make sure that that and agricultural qualifications are as good and as relevant as they need to be for the sector going forward.

Sorry, I know I'm trying the patience of the Deputy Presiding Officer, but I want to turn to the amendment of Plaid, especially on the issue of Erasmus+, because I think that that is of real importance to this Chamber. Over the last five years, an estimated 10,000 students and staff in Wales have benefited from participation in the Erasmus+ programme, and it is hugely disappointing to see the stance that is being taken in London at the moment.

To conclude, the Welsh Government's draft budget is one that delivers significant investment for our FE institutions, to raise standards and support students. I'm proud that, unlike in England, we're providing investment to ensure that FE lecturers in Wales have pay parity with their colleagues in schools. I'm proud that we continue to provide investment to support colleges with financial pressures that fall upon them as a result of pensions. As I said: £2 million for mental health; £5 million for professional learning; and £10 million for the skills development fund. We are supporting our FE institutions, supporting our students and learners, and we're developing the skills Wales needs to meet the demands of our economy.

Thank you. Can I call on David Melding to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think we've had a very interesting debate, and I thank all Members who have made a contribution. Mohammad Asghar started in very robust form and framed this debate, I think, very positively. We need to reach our full potential as a people and as an economy, and I think we all agree with that. A skilled workforce is at the heart of a resilient economy; again, that is a profound truth. But, at times, skills shortages are holding us back, and in meeting this shortfall, FE is absolutely crucial. I don't think anyone disagrees with that as the real kernel of importance in this debate. Indeed, Oscar, I heard many mutterings from the front bench in complete agreement with the attitude you were taking, and commending the approach that you made.

Bethan Jenkins talked about Erasmus+ and other matters, and I would like—[Interruption.] I beg your pardon, sorry. She talked about Erasmus+, and I do want to spend a bit of time on this because I think it's a really important issue. I believe Erasmus+ has been of massive benefit to the students of Wales, enriching their experience and allowing them to flourish, and it has great economic benefits. I will urge the UK Government to ensure that we negotiate well so we can participate in this programme in a way that will ensure future benefits. But, to put it into the EU withdrawal Bill, I think, would have restricted our negotiating policy profoundly, and I do not think that is the best approach. But—and my colleagues agree with me—we will be emphasising how important this is to the UK Government, as the Minister did. So, on that, we are in agreement.

Paul Davies talked about Pembrokeshire College. There were many specific references to local FE colleges and just how they are at the centre of so much life in our regional local economies. Doors there are open to people of all ages, and I really think that's the classic thing that FE has delivered. We do have a very good record traditionally in Wales. Wales was one of the few places after the second world war where technical colleges really did take off. It was one of the failures of the reforms of that time that technical education did not gain the sort of prominence that more academic approaches did. But, in Wales, we did actually do well in that sector, and we've seen our FE colleges take that tradition forward. But Paul did emphasise the need for a longer term funding model, and this became quite a debate during the course of our discussion as well. I'll return to that, perhaps, in a moment.

Then, the link between FEs and employers, again, was made by several Members. David Rowlands, I thought very fair mindedly, started with a tribute to the Welsh Government's vocational programmes, as he put it, and commended what he thought was a lot of activity that had been positive. He did then kind of lapse into his previous speech in the debate that we held earlier, and there were lots of lexicological disputes about a particular word, which I'm not going to mention. But I do think we need to be slightly kinder to each other sometimes. I think tone, context and intent is what drives the usage of words, and I have to say that I have some sympathy with the irritation he felt earlier.

Andrew R.T. Davies then talked about FEs being the main route for many young people to develop their skills. We quite properly talk about universities a lot, but for many, many students, FEs are much more significant, and I thought that did rebalance the debate. He talked, of course, about the agricultural sector—this is what we'd expect—but with such force, and he was the only person to really address this in this afternoon's debate. Sadly, only about 1 per cent of apprenticeships are in the agricultural sector at the moment, and that is quite a sobering thought. He mentioned the great capital investment that's gone on at Cardiff and Vale College, and I understand there are other examples. Anyone who goes to the Dumballs Road site—it's just a pure pleasure to see those students surrounded by these outstanding facilities. I recommend the restaurant there, amongst many other things that they have.

Janet Finch-Saunders, I thought you had the best image of the day: skills are the Achilles' heel of the Welsh dragon. That image really captivated people and made them think about how important it is that we rectify the current drag we have in too many areas because we're not strengthening skills as much as we should. Because they do drive improvement in economic performance as well as bringing great benefit to people individually as well. You also mentioned that private sector influence is important, and the partnerships that are there so that employers can drive many of the strategic approaches taken to skills development. I think these were very, very important points. I would add, in terms of skills, that is probably the best lever we have. We have a lot of power there, and we expend a lot of money as well, it should be said. We need to do that efficiently and effectively. This is something that I think is sometimes overlooked—just how powerful that lever is to a devolved institution.

Kirsty then replied and, I think, agreed with a lot of what we put forward. Of course, this Government is committed to improving skills, as the Minister said, so that Wales can thrive. I don't think anyone doubts that that commitment is a very sincere one and that this is even more important for a post-Brexit economy. And again, I think everyone in this Chamber would agree.

If I might be permitted, Deputy Presiding Officer, at this point, a hint of criticism. I did think a certain didactic tone then entered your peroration at this point, as you told us off for having a motion that just referred to what was already embedded in the Welsh Government approach. I then thought, 'Well, this, in a way, is a funny kind of compliment', but then you sort of spoiled it by saying it's impossible to have three-year budgets. The fiscal environment has been very challenging—that is certainly true. We've had big changes in terms of administrations, then a general election, and much of this has led to further challenges. I do politely remind you that it was your party and the Labour Party that prevented us having an earlier general election. If that had happened earlier in the autumn—[Interruption.]—then these things may have been a little easier to manage.

I do appreciate the point that our budgetary approaches in the UK have not been terribly well fitted to three-year budgets. We need to get better here, so that we're developing indicative budgets and approaches where there is some sort of assurance about the level that will be given. I don't think—at least, I'd sincerely hope that we're not going to be seeing the sort of sudden financial disruption that we had in the financial crisis. So, I don't think we're going to have a sudden change in the UK Government's approach, and they have said that we are now moving beyond the austerity period. 

Can I finally say, I thought the point you made about the need to look at higher skills was both very well made and added a lot to the debate? Master's degree programmes: there's again a lot of evidence that they're even more important to an economy than the number of PhD completions, because many people who do Master's programmes then want to use them in some entrepreneurial fashion. So, I thought the point you made was a very positive way to finish.

I do thank everyone for their contributions this afternoon, and I do urge you to support our motion, unamended. 

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. So, we defer voting on this until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.

We are now moving to voting time, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung. No. Okay.