The next item is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government: supporting our town centres. I call on the Deputy Minister to make the statement—Hannah Blythyn. 

Thank you, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to speak to you today about Welsh town centres and to speak about providing more support for our towns. I do want to transform Welsh towns. 

Llywydd, I'm happy to announce a further package of support for town centres worth nearly £90 million as part of our transforming towns agenda. This builds on the projected £800 million investment in our towns as a result of our regeneration programmes since 2014. The transforming towns package includes support for enforcement around empty and derelict properties in our town centres, a new green infrastructure fund and a town-centre-first approach to new developments.

These measures will contribute significantly to the health of our town centres. We all agree here that towns are incredibly important to Wales, and the vast majority of us will have a natural affinity to at least one town—places that have shaped us, places that are integrally linked to friends and family, places that are so much more than just a collection of buildings. Towns across the country have unique assets, a proud heritage and inspiring histories.

But I want our towns to have great futures as well as great pasts, and some are facing challenges. The retail sector has changed as the way we shop, work and live has changed. The role of towns is changing and towns need to repurpose themselves to adapt. That's why we've been investing in bringing life to town centres through housing, office and business start-up space, and leisure and public services. We have a number of regeneration funds that are targeted at town centres but have not been explicitly badged as such. From now on, our investments will be an integral part of our transforming towns agenda and I want to clarify and simplify the processes around funds.

The transforming towns package includes extending our capital grant funding programme for a further year to March 2022. Welsh Government investment of £36 million will enable the delivery of additional projects worth nearly £58 million. I am also providing an additional £10 million loan funding to bring empty and under-utilised buildings in town centres back into use. And I have established a £5 million green infrastructure and biodiversity fund for greening projects, which will bring environmental benefits as well as helping making town centres more attractive places to visit.

Coastal towns like Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Cardigan and Barry already benefit from our existing programmes, and will continue to do so. I have, though, additionally earmarked funding to specifically support projects in coastal town areas. This £2 million funding will deliver projects worth around £3 million and includes an element of revenue as well as capital funding.

More generally, I'm also providing £0.5 million revenue funding to enable local authorities to develop master plans, projects and provisions for town centres, including digital development and enhancing community and stakeholder engagement. Community and stakeholder engagement is key to the vitality of a town. I want to support communities and stakeholders to take ownership of their towns and to shape their future. And I intend today to take to towns across the country to hear what people have to say and how they want to shape, to transform, their own towns and the places where they live and work. We've also put £539,000 into supporting the development of 22 business improvement districts.

As part of giving communities and businesses the tools to do the job, with the Carnegie Trust, we funded the creation of the understanding Welsh places data tool. We're now funding further development of the tool, which assists users to better understand the places where they live and work, in order to make positive change.

Whilst I am keen to empower and challenge communities to take ownership and drive change from the grass roots, I recognise that Government has a key, strategic role. I want to use all the levers at our disposal to make a real and lasting difference to our town centres. That's why this Government, together with our partners in the Welsh Local Government Association, has adopted a town-centre-first principle. This will mean that town-centre locations will be the first consideration for any new developments we are part of. The principle will inform our future estates strategy and we will strongly support and encourage our partners to do likewise.

Whether it's a small rural town or a large urban one, whether it's my constituency office in the heart of Flint town centre, or Transport for Wales's headquarters in Pontypridd, location decisions can provide a boost to a town. I recently visited the new Conwy County Borough Council headquarters at Colwyn Bay and saw for myself the positive effect on the town centre—increased footfall, decreased vacancies and a marked improvement in business performance and confidence. Town-centre locations also bring major environmental benefits, such as reducing single-use car journeys, preservation of green field sites, opportunities to introduce green infrastructure, and more co-location of public agencies.

One of the key challenges in transforming our towns is tackling empty and derelict properties or land—the properties that have blighted too many of our high streets for too long. It's time to call time on this. I'm providing local authorities with access to expertise and a £13.6 million fighting fund to enable them become a source of constant nuisance to those owners who don't engage or only do the bare minimum. With our local authority partners, we have prioritised 66 properties across Wales for action. So, my message to owners of empty properties in town centres is: work with us and we will help to bring your empty property back into use. But, if you refuse to co-operate, we will not be afraid to take firm and final action.

This Welsh Government is serious about refocusing and reinvigorating our approach and support for town centres, and these measures will make a significant contribution. In addition, my officials are exploring the feasibility of a fund aimed at unlocking strategic stalled sites in Wales that are likely to yield significant numbers of housing. This links to recommendations within the affordable housing review and, reflecting our town-centre focus, will prioritise sites that would directly benefit town centres.

Llywydd, this package is simply the start of transforming towns and definitely not the end. Together, we can and will make sure that towns across the country not only survive but thrive. Diolch yn fawr. 

You begin your statement with the announcement, which, of course, we have been made publicly aware of in advance through the media, of a further package of support for town centres worth nearly £90 million as part of your transforming towns agenda. What is the timescale that that £90 million applies to? Is it one year, or is it projected into the next Senedd term? Having led a debate three weeks ago here, calling on the Welsh Government to establish a seaside town and market town fund to support regeneration in communities across Wales, and announcing that's exactly what the Welsh Conservatives would do, I could say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, although I suspect you'll of course flatly deny that this had anything to do with it. However, our proposals included the statement that this will enable communities to decide how the fund is to be invested within their local area—in other words, not just public bodies and businesses. 

As the Bevan Foundation has said, if people feel that policies are imposed on them, the policies don't work, and we need to therefore produce programmes with communities themselves. This morning, you issued your town-centre-first principle Wales, and this concluded with the statement that proportionate and best value decision making should include consideration of the importance of supporting town centres in line with the requirements of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. And, of course, the five ways of working for public bodies within that Act include collaboration, working with others, including third sector bodies and communities, to help achieve goals that have been decided together, and involving the people that services or activities are going to benefit or affect from as early a stage as possible. How will your proposals, therefore, address that, because the statements I've seen so far haven't specifically referred to this, which should be clearly at the core, not only because of legislation, but also because, if you are going to invest money, this is the best way to get the outcomes that we all want to see?

You refer to 22 business improvement districts and state that:

'Community and stakeholder engagement is key to the vitality of a town.' 

When I looked up business improvement districts, the Welsh Government website says currently there are only 24 of these in existence or being developed, that support ends in March this year and that only funding up to £30,000 is available for each district. So, I wonder if you can expand—is that still the case or are the business improvement districts you're referring to here something that will continue beyond March and potentially enable BIDs to go beyond the £30,000 referred to.

You refer to the Carnegie Trust working with you to create the understanding Welsh places data tool, and, of course, as the Carnegie Trust themselves state, having robust data is a fundamental requirement for supporting regeneration, and therefore, of course, we embrace this. But what consideration have you also given to the extensive work carried out by Carnegie Trust on transforming towns and on the enabling state? They state in their many reports, including 'Turnaround Towns', that:

'The future of our towns is about more than just the high street, it is also about residents' access to levers of change and their ability to influence local decisions.'

And they state that the enabling state approach is about

'moving us from the state as a provider of welfare towards a more enabling style of governance. Set within a shift in the relationships between citizens, community and the state', suggesting that

'government, alongside driving the performance of public services, should enable communities to do what they do best', where communities

'are best-placed to bring a wealth of local knowledge and collective energy to the decisions that affect them.'

Two more questions. You will be aware that the UK Government has announced £3.6 billion for its town fund to support towns across England to build prosperous futures, give communities a greater say in their future post Brexit, targeted at places that have not shared in the proceeds of growth in the same way as more prosperous parts of the country. So, how much, if at all—and I don't know if this is Barnettised money—of that £3.6 billion will find its way or has found its way to Wales? If it is coming to Wales now or in the future—and I appreciate this goes beyond 2021—will the Welsh Government be fully allocating that to transforming towns in Wales or not?

And, finally, in response to your transforming towns media coverage, the Federation of Small Businesses Wales, which supports businesses, said it was time to start rethinking what a high street looks like. So, how do you respond to their research identifying the key megatrends affecting towns in Wales and the suggestions they made, including publishing town strategies in every town, ensuring the ownership is local and businesses and the voluntary and public sectors are engaged; considering establishing a property register where interventions often fail with absent or unidentifiable landlords, to build a basis for engagement; and rethinking the role of business rates in towns, replicating the recently announced English relief for high street businesses, which they say will be a great start, but, in the longer term, the impact of rates in our towns will need better consideration? Diolch.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

If I first take the question around the package of the £90 million funding and the timescales of that, well, it has to be broken down, because the £90 million encapsulates quite a few different strands, the bulk of which is the targeted regeneration investment fund, an extension until 2022 of £57.6 million, which will be for local authorities to identify projects in priority towns. It also includes the £5 million green infrastructure fund, and an additional £10 million for the town-centre loans. But it may be better if I provide that breakdown in writing to Members, to be able to analyse that further and to explain the timescales around that for you to disseminate in your constituencies and communities as well.FootnoteLink

The Member would expect me to say this, and I hate to disappoint, but you said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I can assure you that we probably already had this announcement in the pipeline when we did have that debate a few weeks ago. But I'm very pleased where you can find areas of consensus, because we all agree that our towns are so important to us, and to support them as well. I do not disagree in any respect—and I said it in my statement—that it's incredibly important, as we move forward with this regeneration work, and in particular the focus on town centres, that communities are involved with that. Because you can invest money in a town, but to actually make it work in the long term, it has to have that buy-in of stakeholders, whether they be businesses, whether they be members of community groups. So, I'm keen to look at further ways that we can facilitate that, moving forward, and should any Members in this Chamber have any suggestions then I'd be more than happy to receive them.

One of the things we are doing as part of this package is looking in terms of how we can take forward more of a communications approach with communities, to work with them, to actually talk about the support that we're talking about and get their input, and enable a mechanism for people to be able to flag issues and put forward suggestions. And I'm keen to look at how we can involve town and community councils much more in that as well, because, from my experience, they're often the people at the forefront there in the community, seeing what the challenges are and seeking those solutions.

With respect to the UK Government announcement of the £3.6 billion, none of the additional funding that I've announced this week is a result of Barnett consequentials from the UK Government's towns fund. We've not been made aware of any consequential from that, and I would perhaps urge the Member to perhaps go back to his colleagues in Westminster and perhaps lobby on behalf of Wales to ensure that, if there is any consequential, then we should receive it.

Information further to Plenary

I thank the Deputy Minister for her statement. There is a lot to welcome in it. There's a growing realisation that towns have been left behind due to the inaction of Governments here and in Westminster, and there's a realisation as well, I think, that that needs to change because of how important town centres are for businesses, for the health of the local economy, and of course—most importantly, perhaps—for the people who live in them.

We'll all be familiar with the experience of visiting the centres of historic and strategically important towns in Wales and being dismayed at seeing dereliction and shops with their shutters down. But, Deputy Minister, there are seeds of hope in Wales as well, and I think we'd all like to take this opportunity to congratulate Treorchy for winning the prize of the UK's best high street. So, what's Treorchy doing right? There are around 100 shops on the high street, with the vast majority being run independently, and the occupancy rate is a staggering 96 per cent, which is just phenomenal. This is what we should be aiming for all over Wales. So, I'd welcome hearing what the Welsh Government will be doing to learn from their experiences there—not least the fact that, according to the BBC, 60 per cent of the independent shops are run by women, which shows how a locally based economy can bring tangible benefits in economic equality.

Now, another success story in the making is Llanelli, where the local authority has made excellent use of funding streams, including the town-centre loan scheme. So, could the Deputy Minister confirm that this funding will continue to be available for local authorities that are keen to use all the levers at their disposal to turn their town centres around? Now, I'd agree that the £10 million fund for bringing derelict properties back into use is appropriate as a first step to tackling that problem. But the complaint we hear from businesses time and again is that they simply can't make ends meet because of the crippling burden of business rates, which are high in Wales for small and medium-sized businesses, as you'll know. So, while I welcome the tough words that you've said, when you say that you'll empower local authorities to take firm and final action against owners of empty properties that refuse to co-operate, we do need action as well to prevent these properties from becoming derelict and empty in the first place. So, I'd urge you to persuade the economy Minister to look at how the burden of business rates can be lifted as a priority, so that your firm words can be complemented with firm action in that regard as well.

Indeed, lots of the problems that town centres are facing do emanate—as these things are all connected, they will emanate from the economy and transport portfolios: a lack of affordable bus services within and between towns that makes it difficult for public transport users to get around, and unreasonable parking costs, which makes taking a trip in a car undesirable for so many people.

I was slightly surprised to see a reference to local services, like leisure centres, being essential to town centres. Of course I agree with that principle, but campaigners in my region had to fight tooth and nail to prevent the closure of a valued local resource in Pontllanfraith leisure centre. Again, I don't doubt the sincerity of the intent here, but I feel that greater cross-portfolio working would benefit the Government here as well, because cuts to local government inevitably mean cuts to local services, and a one-Government approach would really be welcome to be seen there.

And finally, I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for the note she circulated before the statement about the town-centre-first principle. This is something that Plaid Cymru wholeheartedly supports as a way to maximise footfall within our town centres, and again, I hope that the ambition is met with action. It was mentioned in the note that not all public services and facilities will be suitable for a town centre, so could you please indicate what services and facilities you foresee won't be suitable for town centres? But again, there's a lot to welcome here and I look forward to scrutinising the delivery of the plans with interest.

Thank you. I thank the Member for her contribution. First and foremost, I join you in congratulating Treorchy on its fantastic win and the recognition it well deserves. I wasn't aware of that point you made about 60 per cent of the independent shops being run by women, which is fantastic. Actually, when I think about the towns in my own community, that is very much the case as we move forward now. Clearly, we've got a lot to learn. We talk about the challenges, but I think sometimes we have to have a glass-half-full approach and actually see what we can learn from those towns that are doing well and are perhaps bucking the trend.

So, I think we have to learn more about what's happened in Treorchy and how they got there, and perhaps how they can share that best practice with other towns of a similar size and nature as well. But recognising it's about finding that unique selling point of a town and how you embrace that and use it, rather than trying and be like somewhere else or trying to compete with a neighbouring town, and to perhaps complement that.

You mentioned Llanelli, I think it was a while back, last year, when I managed to go and visit and see some of the work that's been done there to try and repurpose the town centre and perhaps restructure it and bring it together and consolidate it. I certainly saw the seeds of improvement being sown there. 

The town-centre loans are set to continue and there's an additional £10 million-worth of funding for that, because I know it has made a difference with local authorities being able to facilitate those loans and bring in private investment. So, that's really to the benefit of some of our communities.

The enforcement fund for derelict properties is actually £13.6 million. We've actually already worked with local authorities on this to look at how they can identify—. They've already identified three buildings. We all know those ones that everybody talks about and everybody moans about. It's making sure now that they've identified the right buildings—the ones that can send that message. You can get one or two and use that as leverage in the future.

In terms of the Minister for finance's role and business rates, this is a discussion that we regularly have, and I'm really pleased that the high street rate relief scheme has been extended recently. I've heard first hand that has made a difference to people. Clearly, as we move forward, there's work ongoing in terms of local taxation as a whole and how we think—. You're right: there's a whole holistic approach to making this work, and transport is key. Because there's no point in us redeveloping our town centres if we can't access them. So, I think, as we move forward, the public transport Bill and elements of that all have to work. I can assure you that this has cross-Government commitment and support for making this work, as we move forward.

Like others this afternoon, Deputy Minister, I would also like to welcome the statement that you've made. I think, across the Chamber, despite many differences, we would all welcome the structured thinking that is now taking place within the Welsh Government about the future of our town centres. This is something that affects not only the economy of individual places, but it also deeply affects people's perceptions of themselves. It's an issue that is at the heart of who we are as communities and who we want to be in the places that we live. I very much welcome this holistic approach that is being taken.

But if I could, I would like to move you a little further, Deputy Minister, to be a little more holistic as well. If I think about the communities that I represent: if you take Ebbw Vale, for example. When I speak to people who are retailers and shop owners there, they will tell me that one of the biggest challenges they face is the lack of decent bus services into the town centre, and the same is said in other parts of my constituency. Now, you are delivering £90 million, which is obviously very welcome, but another department is cutting the bus services grant. I think we do need to see a more linked-up approach across Government, so that the work that you are undertaking in your department is supported by the work being undertaken by your colleagues in other departments and isn't undermined—even though I accept that it is unintentionally so. At the same time, we need to ensure that we have the planning in place that will enable town centres to flourish and not simply to become ghettos, as has happened in many places.

Having said that, I really do welcome very much the new emphasis, as I see it, on the green infrastructure. I think that's one of the really key issues. When you look hard at places you like to be—town centres and community centres that are attractive, that feel comfortable, that people want to spend time in—they are also areas that are physically attractive as well. We need to ensure that we are able to invest both in the physical built environment, but also the green infrastructure, which I think will have a profound impact on people's perceptions of where they are.

I would ask you to go a little further, Minister, in terms of how this is delivered. You said, in both your statement and also in answer to earlier questions, that you wanted to work with other stakeholders and the rest of it. I think that that's all very laudable, and it would be more surprising if you didn't say that. But there is a lack of resource, I believe, in local government and elsewhere that enables this sort of structured development to take place. I would like to see the Welsh Government investing in greater resource, whether it's town centre managers or the equivalent of developing a structured approach to ensuring that we do have these different policy areas brought together in order to deliver change in a particular community.

I would also like to ask you what work you are doing to ensure that the legislation we passed here at the end of the last Assembly—I think it was the built environment Act—is being delivered in order to ensure that some of the architecture that we want to protect in different parts of our communities, and also the built environment itself, is maintained and that that law is being used to its full extent. I'm unconvinced at the moment that it is being used to the full extend it should be in order to protect some of our most precious environments.

But I hope also—and I'll finish with this, Deputy Presiding Officer—that the Welsh Government will be able to ensure that we don't simply go through another process of investing in individual projects, but we actually invest in whole places.

Just to start where you finished, the way I'm approaching this and the way Welsh Government is approaching this is: it's not just about the projects, it's about the places and the people who make up those places. As we say, you talked about boosting the economy of the individual place, it's actually about the feel of it as well, and that sense that people feel their home town has gone downhill and that sense of civic pride that goes with it. I think that's why we need to approach it—you are absolutely right—in that holistic way, ensuring things are joined up and there are no unintended consequences elsewhere. As I said before, it's about actually being able to access towns, as well as actually having a nice town and a nice place to go to and having that experience there as well.

Specifically in terms of green infrastructure and looking at the benefits that brings. Yes, the bricks and mortar are important, but for too long that's all we've focused on. When we've looked at what is the public realm or the public space, it's often just been a bit of concrete or some paving stones or a few potted plants, rather than thinking about it in a much broader, more beneficial way. Although the green infrastructure fund is £5 million as a separate fund, I would encourage local authorities and others, when they are considering other regeneration projects, to use the criteria that we are going to look at in the future and actually take that into account as part of that as well. We want that to be part of those projects that come forward from local authorities and other stakeholders.

I recognise what's been said in here in terms of actually making sure there is that support for local authorities in that holistic approach, and a recognition that budgets are tight after a decade of austerity. But we're doing what we can within this. We're taking this forward now, with support from elsewhere across Government, and I'm really pleased that we're able to offer revenue funding to local authorities to start actually looking at what they're going to need to take this forward as well, whether that be master planning or digital support or community engagement.

Thank you for your statement, Deputy Minister, and I welcome the Welsh Government's renewed commitment to our town centres. Empty shops are discouraging to potential shoppers and, when empty, can be vandalised, particularly late at night, making the town a no-go area. There are many empty shops in our town centres across Wales, and I therefore welcome the Welsh Government's town-centre-first approach.

As a former retailer, I take a particular interest in the revitalisation of our town centres with regular bus services to encourage shoppers, because lack of such services and the decreasing number of such services impacts negatively on the town. And whilst I accept that not all empty properties will be filled by retail, we have to try and encourage small independent retailers to set up shop, as it were.

A much higher proportion of revenue is recycled into the local community through small businesses than through their larger counterparts. Without small, independent retailers our high streets are at risk of becoming either empty shells or smaller versions of our out-of-town retail parks. And if we want to retain the character of our high streets, from Bridgend to Bangor, from Connah's Quay to Cowbridge, then we have to act now.

One in every eight retail unit is currently empty and the Welsh economy is lagging behind the other UK nations, and the outlook for the high street is not looking great. High street retailers are struggling with increasing rents and business rates, at the same time as facing increasing competition from online and out-of-town retailers, who have lower costs often, as well as free parking. Therefore, Deputy Minister, can you outline how you're working with the economy Minister and the finance Minister to address the issue of rising costs of doing business?

You have said in your statement that you will take firm and final action against owners of empty properties who refuse to co-operate. So, can you please outline what that action will look like? There can be multiple reasons, as we know, for empty properties, Deputy Minister. As the Welsh Government are taking a tough stance with private business owners, will you practice what you preach and bring back into use all those empty properties owned by the Welsh Government?

Finally, Deputy Minister, this initiative is the latest measure from your Government aimed at improving our town centres, so what assurances can you give my constituents that it won't be beset by the problems of earlier schemes, schemes that operated in isolation and were not subject to scrutiny? How can the people of my region be assured that towns like Neath, Pontardawe and Bridgend will receive genuine support? Thank you.

I think the Member won brownie points with Jack Sargeant when the mention of Connah's Quay got into your speech then. Just in terms of the points about the challenges that face our high streets, there are many similar challenges, not just in Wales, but right across the UK. You're absolutely right that we need to work across Government with the Minister for finance and the Minister for economy, because it's not in isolation, it needs to be done across the piece.

You talked about reassurances for residents and retailers in your constituency and your region. I think what is important is that the communities have a stake in any developments, which is why, as I've emphasised today, there's a need to actually have that community buy-in and the ideas to be driven from the grass roots up, rather than it's something that's done to people and places. So, it's how we can support local authorities and town and community councils to do that.

It's about actually identifying projects to come forward; it's for local authorities to try and identify projects, but I'd want to involve as many stakeholders as possible and to make sure that we have avenues for the community to have a say in that. Like I said, you can give resources or grants or loan funding, but to actually sustain the success of a community or a town centre that needs to have the involvement and the buy-in of not just retailers, but of residents, of town councillors, of everybody across the piece to make it successful well into the future. 

Thank you. 

I have a number of speakers still and I'm just looking at the time, so brevity now. We've had the main speakers from each of the parties, so if I could ask for brevity from the next set of speakers as well. Jack Sargeant. 

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I will start by thanking Caroline Jones for mentioning Connah's Quay. It's not often Members from south Wales mention towns in north Wales, so I do very much welcome that. [Laughter.] 

Minister, the high street is changing, and if high streets like Buckley in my own constituency are to thrive, then we must ensure that the infrastructure allows them to do so. Firstly, as many people have said in the Chamber, it's about having a reliable and affordable way of getting there. So, the north Wales metro, for me, could play a key part in resolving this issue and creating a transport hub. In a town like Buckley, it would enable residents to access the high street whilst leaving the car behind, but it also has the ability to link up our rural communities to their nearest high streets and town centres. 

Now, Minister, I have spoken to you a lot about the importance of banking infrastructure as well, and what that can mean for the high street, which we are still to see. We are losing so many banks at a rapid pace. The difference of a community bank and what that could mean to the people in these towns is huge. Free access to cash and face-to-face banking services keeps the money in the local economy. So, can I ask you, Minister: what conversations have you had with the Minister for Economy and Transport about creating transport hubs in towns like Buckley, but also creating community banks in towns like Buckley as well? 

Finally, if I may—I know we're pressed for time here, Deputy Llywydd—but I would just like to speak in my role as chair of the cross-party group on beer and pubs in Wales. Now, we need to preserve our unique community spaces in towns. Elsewhere, planning rules restrict the turning of pubs into other commercial ventures like shops, for example, without the need for consent from the local authority. Now, I understand that the Welsh Government has proposals in place to amend the legislation in Wales, but will you stress the need for urgency to take this forward with your colleagues within the Welsh Government? Diolch. 

I thank Jack Sargeant for his contribution and questions. Buckley is a town that I'm familiar with, not because I spent many of my younger years going to the Tivoli nightclub there, but because it's actually on the border of my own constituency and I have many friends and family who live there as well. Like many towns across Wales, Buckley has changed over the years, the way we shop has changed, the way we work and the way we live has changed.

But you're absolutely right in terms of the role that the north-east Wales metro can play and, actually, those vital infrastructure links in another sense, like banks and pharmacies. When we see some high streets that have managed to buck the trend slightly, they have managed to retain those things that bring in the footfall; bring people in and then drive them to perhaps independent businesses alongside that. So, yes, certainly I've had conversations with my colleague, the Minister for economy, about how we can use our collective leverage to ensure that we do bring services into communities like Buckley right across the country. 

On the point you make as chair of the cross-party group on beer and pubs, which is quite a cushy role if I do say so myself, the consultation that we had previously recognised the role that pubs play not just as a focal point for the community, but as a hub, as we've seen in many places, perhaps in more rural towns, they actually host post offices now, and utilities and shops. I know that the Minister is committed to bringing forward that as soon as is legislatively possible. 

Of course, I welcome any initiatives to ensure that there is investment in our town centres. I look forward to working with various organisations and town councils on Anglesey to see how we can take advantage of this—and working in Amlwch, for example, one of the places that has seen town-centre decline over the past few years.

But I just wanted to mention one specific idea in the town of Holyhead. It's important, of course, in planning our town centres, that we work across various departments and bring different public bodies together. There is a crisis in primary care in Holyhead at the moment; the health board has taken over two surgeries because of a shortage of doctors, and we do need to build a primary care service anew. Now, it's been drawn to my attention that the old Woolworths shop in the middle of Holyhead—the kind of site that could be ideal for opening a multidisciplinary health centre—would be perfect, because of the kind of building it is, in the town centre and there's parking available. It would then bring people in as footfall to the centre of Holyhead in a way that could cause economic regeneration. Now, other options are being considered, of course, but I have put forward that idea, as it was drawn to my attention, to the health board, and I hope that the local authority will take it seriously too. But, whilst not asking you to make a decision today, or to provide funding for it, do you agree with me in principle that that kind of initiative is one that truly ties in a number of elements that we need to do in order to have an impact on our town centres, and that it deserves detailed consideration?

Thank you for the question. 

Yes, I think, to make a decision on funding or—[Inaudible.]—if I don't make a decision that's perhaps potentially above my pay grade to make anyway. But, the point you make about actually how we make use of those sites—. As the nature of our town centres has changed and those big retailers are not there; they don't have the presence that they used to, it's how we make use of those sites and use them in a different way and repurpose them. And, I think, certainly, the points you raise would fit very well with the town-centre-first approach. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. 

Minister, one aspect of our town centres that I think many people find very attractive is that distinctive offer that isn't just a replica of what you see in so many other town centres across the UK. So, rather than the big operators, the shops and stores that you see everywhere and distinctive local businesses, I think, are a great asset. I know that, in many areas, there's a wealth, actually, of local people, individuals and small businesses, who are involved in arts and crafts, in music and in providing local food produce. I think what would be really valuable would be to have mapping exercises where those individuals and small businesses are identified, brought together, and sometimes, premises identified, because, although individually, they might not be able to afford rents and premises, if they come together as a collective, or as a group, then that becomes feasible and possible. 

But it does take somebody, Minister, to take the initiative to do that, and it may happen in some parts of Wales but not in others. So, in terms of Welsh Government showing a lead and taking a strategic approach, I wonder if there's anything in particular that Welsh Government might consider to ensure that sort of activity is structured and taken forward right across Wales.

And, one other thing, Minister: I know that in Caldicot, for example, in my patch in Newport East, one of the difficulties in taking forward policy around the town centre is identifying the private ownership of the shops, and then, engaging the owners. Very often, there's a lot of difficulty around that, and I wonder again whether there's anything that Welsh Government could do to provide the necessary support and help to deal with those issues.

I thank the Member for his contribution. Working on the assumption—on your last point in terms of the difficulty in identifying owners—that you're referring perhaps to buildings or premises that perhaps have been left empty, or have not been rented out for some time, this is what we hope that this enforcement fighting fund, coupled with the industry expert that will be with us, going out across local authorities from next month, will actually help to address. We will bring in his expertise, share that, train up and resource up our local authority counterparts so that they have the confidence, the resource and the funding to be able to take that on. And, once one or two have been challenged, then, hopefully, that sends a message within a community that, actually, if you're not going to co-operate and if you're going to be difficult, then action will be taken. And I'm more than happy to share more details of that with the Member as this approach develops. 

You're right about the distinctive offer of a town or a community, because that's what makes it the place that it is, and I think, like I said before, it's not about trying to replicate that one-size-fits-all, but what works for a particular place and a particular community. And the point you make in terms of how we could use this to perhaps create something like a hub or a mechanism to provide that platform for people, who, as you said, wouldn't be able to afford the premises on their own, and have the resource to do that, is a very valid one. I know that some local authorities—and where I was yesterday, in Rhyl, they're looking at how they can use the old Queen's Market building there to bring in independent producers to link up with the local colleges and actually give an opportunity to students there to be able to have pop-up stalls, to develop business plans and get that experience, and to have that kind of step up to enable them, hopefully, and help them succeed, going forward. So perhaps that's one where we can go away and do some work on—how we can share these ideas and share these best practices, to see them replicated in towns and places right across Wales where they would be appropriate and most welcome.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement here today. I've got three quick questions for you. Firstly, around your comments on the town-centre-first principle, in my constituency, in the Cynon Valley, I've seen some really positive examples, where the council has enhanced the public service offers available in our town centres. And I agree with your estimate of the benefits of doing this. As you mentioned, locating the Transport for Wales headquarters in Pontypridd is a great example of this principle in action. What I'd like to know is how the Welsh Government is engaging with other partners in the public sector, and, indeed, in private sector enterprises also, to encourage them into town centres.

Secondly, you mentioned the additional £10 million loan funding to bring empty and under-utilised buildings in town centres back into use. I think that's something that's really to be mentioned. Again, some excellent examples in Rhondda Cynon Taf of the local authority stepping in to deliver similar schemes. I'm thinking of the mixed-use Boot Hotel plans in Aberdare town centre, for example. So I wonder if you could give us a little more information, because I know this is something that my constituents would dearly like to see more of.

And my third and final question is, just in relation to your mention of the fund aimed at unlocking strategic stalled sites that could be used for housing. I'm wondering how that would tie in with the stalled sites fund that was announced around two years ago, and what, if any, would be any significant differences between the two.

Thank you, Vikki, for your contributions and questions. The town-centre-first principle—you are right, actually; you can see that, in principle, the sentiment behind it is common sense, really. You can see the difference it makes, including on the site in Colwyn Bay too—the difference that they've seen there. When they created the council buildings, one of the conscious decisions they had was not only to move to a town centre location, but to not have a canteen. And that's not because they were being unnecessarily mean to the staff and to the employees—there's still a facility there to do your meals, and make your tea and coffee and things—but actually to try and encourage that engagement with the local community, to go out and to support local businesses as well, both before and after work. And also actually how the local authority now is perhaps thinking about other services they can bring into that space, to bring more people into the building and into town as well.

And right across the public sector, this has cross-Government support, and that doesn't just mean in terms of our own Government approach, in terms of our locations strategy, moving forward, but actually the work we do perhaps through the various health boards, through education, through local authorities, and the work with housing associations, and other bodies too. So, it's something that—the question, to go through the prism of town-centre-first, should be applied across the piece, moving forward.

And, as you rightly say RCT is a really good example, in terms of bringing properties back into use, and there are projects that have been run by the council as well. I know when I gave evidence to the committee about empty properties that that was cited as a very positive example, which I'd like to see replicated elsewhere. And I think, in terms of actually doing that, there is that money behind them right now, with the enforcement fund and the expertise, to actually make that happen more at pace and scale, right across the country. But also, I think what I'd say to your constituents, in terms of what we want to see there in place, I think it actually goes back to how we better and more involve communities in shaping that agenda too. So, as I said, I invite the Member, if you've got suggestions from your constituents on how best to do that in the future, then they'd be very welcome.

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.