3. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government’s response to the recommendations set out in the urgent review of the Animal Welfare (Breeding of Dogs) (Wales) Regulations 2014 that was commissioned in October 2019? OAQ54980

5. Will the Minister provide an update on progress towards the implementation of Lucy’s Law to regulate puppy farming in Wales? OAQ54979

Thank you. Presiding Officer, I understand you've given permission for questions 3 and 5 to be grouped. I will make a statement and publish the animal health and welfare framework group's report following February recess. The recommendations are comprehensive and include enforcement, training of local authority officials and vets, amendments to licence conditions, as well as consideration of other legislation linked to the breeding and selling of dogs.

Thank you, Minister, and thank you also for your previous response to my written questions from earlier in the month. This is really important as a stepping stone towards the introduction of Lucy's law to ban the third-party sale of cats and dogs. The perception out there of a lack of progress is causing concern amongst campaigners, with fears that, after England brings in its own Lucy's law in April, Wales will become, and I quote, 'The pet shop for sick and damaged animals.' Minister, can you give me a cast-iron guarantee that you will not let this happen, and that a Welsh Lucy's law will be introduced before the end of this Assembly term? When can we, and the many people around Wales who are following this so closely, expect the detailed timetable of the next steps to achieving this goal?

I thank Vikki Howells for that question, and I absolutely give that assurance. This is a major piece of work, and I know how many campaigners are certainly very concerned about that, because my inbox shows me that—both as an Assembly Member and as the Minister. The two sort of go hand in hand; they're very closely linked. What I want to make sure is—. I've said we will bring in a Lucy's law, I'm not in a position at the moment to give you the timetable, but I certainly hope to do so within the next couple of months.

The report, which I commissioned before the end of December, I received about 10 days ago, maybe a little bit less, and I gave you a bit of a flavour in my opening answer as to what's in there. So, I think the big thing for me is—. There's always a rush to legislation; it's about getting that legislation right, but it's about learning what isn't working in the current legislation. Because clearly there are some barriers at the moment that we need to get around. So, if it's barriers to enforcement, for instance, I'm sure that will be flushed out by the local authorities and the meeting that the chief veterinary officer had on that.

So, the two are very closely linked, and I'll certainly be very happy to update. But I absolutely give you my cast-iron assurance that we will look at the breeding legislation that's currently there, and also what we need to bring forward in relation to a Lucy's law.

The issue is, Minister, that you certainly won't be accused of rushing to legislation in this matter. Giving a cast-iron guarantee that you're going to read a report doesn't fill Members here with a great deal of confidence. We've heard these assurances before, and we've been disappointed. I think we've come to a point now, with something over a year left in this Senedd, where we want to see action, and we want to see the promises made a reality. I think what people on all sides of the Chamber want to see is not a reading list, but a commitment to actually doing this and getting this done. I think we are letting down people, up and down the country, and people are saying that they want to see this action completed. I think Members on all sides of the Chamber want to see action and not words.

Sorry, I think Member must have misheard me. I did give that cast-iron assurance to Vikki Howells that I will be making a statement after February recess, on the back of the report that the animal health and welfare framework group gave to me, and also on the discussions that the chief veterinary officer had with all—well, 21—local authorities, one didn't attend, to see what the barriers are to that enforcement, and also with the British Veterinary Association about what further training we can give to vets. Because, on the back of the programme by the BBC, where a lot of this correspondence has come from, it was clear there were several issues that needed addressing. Legislation can't be rushed—the Member knows that—but certainly I give the cast-iron guarantee that we will have that legislation in place in this term.

England, of course, is bringing in Lucy's law in April. Southern Ireland is introducing similar regulations next month. Wales, the home of the breeding farm where Lucy was rescued from, has no date for the introduction of the law.

There is significant national interest in this, and the Petitions Committee has a petition signed by 11,195 people calling for the ban of the sale of puppies by pet shops and all commercial third-party dealers in Wales. Last month, the Welsh Government stated that it needed to gain a thorough understanding of the barriers to enforcement within the existing legislation so that you could tackle the problem effectively. What barriers, really, have you identified, and by when are you aiming to overcome them?

I am aware of the petition at committee and it doesn't surprise me that it's had so many signatures—we're absolutely a county of animal lovers. I referred to the meeting that the chief veterinary officer and her officials had with local authorities, so I suppose that was the first area where we saw barriers in relation to the local authorities being able to, perhaps, visit the breeders as much as they would like to. Obviously, local authorities, after a decade of austerity, have had cuts to their budget. Unfortunately, it does appear that officers in animal welfare areas have perhaps been cut back to the very minimal numbers.

So, we're looking at—and I have to say, local authorities are very keen to do this—sharing expertise. So, you have somewhere like Torfaen, for instance, which I think has one licensed breeder, and then you've got areas like Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion that have got multiple numbers—hundreds, I think, in a couple of them.

So, it's about making sure that we have the capacity to cover the whole of Wales, and perhaps working together in a way. I think that's one very important barrier that we saw as to why the current legislation that we have isn't being enforced. So, just changing the legislation I don't think would bring an end to what we all want to see. 

Certainly from these benches, I can give you an assurance, Minister, that we would support any legislation that was brought forward to enact Lucy's law, and I hear the comments from the Labour backbench in particular. I think there is consensus around this Chamber that legislation can proceed at pace when that consensus is put to good effect. And I would implore you to make sure that, if it is the regulatory route that you go down with your statement coming in February, that you do have the enforcement measures in place, because there is little or no point in actually putting regulation, or indeed legislation, in place unless the enforcement is there. It is pleasing to hear that the chief veterinary officer has engaged with local authorities to gauge the level of support that they will require. Will you commit today to making sure that that support is made available to local authorities so that if it is regulation or legislation you bring forward, the aspects around Lucy's law to end this abhorrent practice can be brought to bear here in Wales? 

Certainly that's something that we're having to look at because it's very clear, just after that one meeting that the CVO had with local authorities—. I was very pleased that 21 out of 22 local authorities sent a representative to that meeting. So, I think it does show that there is that consensus right across all levels of Government in this area. Obviously, and I referred to this in my answer to Janet Finch-Saunders, funding is going to be a matter of concern for many of them. I don't have an unlimited pot of money, but I absolutely accept, depending on what we do when we look at those regulations and the barriers, and whether we reopen those regulations and the legislation that we're going to have to bring in, that further funding will undoubtedly be required. So, I can't give you a commitment that I will give it, or how much I will give but, certainly, I recognise that that is an issue.