Diolch, Llywydd. I move the amendments in the name of Caroline Jones.

We oppose the devolution of justice and policing. I was pleased to take the time to consider this very impressive report in detail before saying that. I think there is an analogy between the EU and devolution. It comes where there's an interface between, here, devolved and non-devolved services. Clearly, where you have such an interface, there are always going to be challenges about managing that interface.

But the fact that there are difficulties identified does not of itself justify the conclusion that therefore the non-devolved services here, justice and policing, must be devolved. It could equally logically make the case for those services that are currently devolved but have difficulties when they're interfacing with non-devolved services to be un-devolved. But in this place, it only ever moves one way. Every argument of any difficulty in an interface becomes one for more and more devolution. Just as we saw in the European Union, for any problem, the proffered solution was always one of more Europe.

And that, I think, is in part why the Brexit referendum vote went as it did. Our inability to have a stable devolution system, to allow people to be comfortable with devolved institutions without seeing it as a slippery slope where it will always, always be more and more powers towards greater autonomy and, potentially, independence, is one of the reasons why this place is not held in greater esteem across Wales.

We don't propose to support the Conservative amendment, in part because I think point 2 is very unfair to Welsh Government. You say that you regret the

'failings in the criminal justice system in Wales', and certainly, there are huge failings in this book; it is very, very apparent. Yet, you then say,

'where the Welsh Government has responsibility for a range of key services.'

And if you were to be fair, you would go on and say, 'but the UK Government has responsibility for many more.' 

I do feel that this commission report is an indictment of the criminal justice system as it has been working across England and Wales. Justice is one area where I'm concerned that the austerity process has gone too far. I think it does need more money for the operation of our courts, and the case is made also here for some areas in legal aid. I think the Conservative Government in Westminster has woken up to austerity and cuts in policing having gone too far, hence their promise for 20,000 more officers across England and Wales, which we support. 

But they should also look at what's happening in the justice system and, rather than just opposing this because it's more devolution, actually get Ministers in Westminster to look at this report, understand the indictment it makes of the system of justice in England and Wales, and tell us what they're going to do about it. And part of that may involve more money. 

I give way to the ex-First Minister.