I am very pleased to support this debate, and I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for bringing it forward. It is an issue that is very important to many of my constituents, including people who I socialise with. Lots of people are not on their—. Like my wife accusing me of being on my smartphone at all times—in fact, many people haven't got a smartphone.

Looking at it from the viewpoint of an organisation, what is there to not like about providing online services? It saves processing time, it saves staff, it saves on money, it checks all parts of the form are completed, because if you don't complete a part of the form it gives you a little red dot and it won't let you go on to the next part. I'm sure other people have had that problem, which seems to beset me with most online forms I fill in. It checks all parts of the form are completed, but also makes sure that everything is valid. So, you put your date in in the right format and you can cross-match key fields. It provides a faster response to the individual. What is there not to like?

But I think this exemplifies the distance between people and governments and big organisations. And can I just say something that might raise shock horror to a large number of people running large organisations and senior people in a lot of the public sector? Many people do not own a smartphone, an iPad or a computer. Many others, for lots of reasons—some relating to health—are not happy using ICT equipment, even when it has been adapted for a disability. And I know you can get a concept keyboard to put over the top, and I'll tell you what—good luck if you're looking for one. But they're not happy and they like—. There's another group of people who just like talking to people. They like getting on a phone and actually talking to people. That's the second-best means of contacting somebody. The best means of contacting somebody is actually talking to them face-to-face, which used to be a way that you could deal with organisations, which seems to be coming less and less available currently.

And Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned banks. People used to go into the bank to do all sorts of discussions, and it was part of their social lives as well, which is something—. Again, we talked about isolation yesterday—part of the problem of isolation is that people don't have these community meetings in post offices, banks and other places.

Let's look at the bus pass renewal application. Both my office staff and staff at local libraries have spent a huge amount of time helping people to apply online. I've also spoken to lots of people who've had to ask children, grandchildren or other relatives to help them or do it for them.

Can I give the Welsh Government some credit? Transport for Wales has got a paper-based form as well, and that was available to apply for the new bus pass. It wasn't online only. And can I just say, there's an awful lot of things that I deal with that are online only, or not only online only—'Please use the app.' That's sort of saying that everybody's got it on their phone. The benefits system is almost wholly online. It is wholly online—the information is provided online or applications have to be online. At a very minimum, a paper-based version of every Welsh and Westminster Government form should be available for people if they want it, and a lot of people feel much happier filling in paper-based forms.

Rhun ap Iorwerth started talking about it—can I just also turn to the private sector? There's a financial benefit for us if we deal with utility companies online. They actually give us some money off for having online bills and paying by direct debit and all those things. Of course, we get the benefit, but the reverse is true—there's a financial penalty for not dealing online. That's another one of the many ways where it becomes expensive to be poor, because the people who don't deal online are more likely to be poor than people who have double-fuel, direct debit, online bills, which I'm sure affect most of us in here, but an awful lot of my constituents don't have those things and they're paying a price for that.

Finally, I just think every online process should have a paper-based alternative. Some people will want to do it online—I actually prefer doing things online—but many people would like to use a pen and paper. In fact, anybody who's seen my handwriting would realise exactly why I prefer to do it online, but I think it is important that people have the choice and let's see that everybody can have a paper-based alternative and not pay a financial penalty for doing so.