The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 2 and 3 in the name of Darren Millar.

Item 6 on the agenda this afternoon is the Plaid Cymru debate on decarbonisation, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Motion NDM7277 Siân Gwenllian

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes the need to reduce our carbon footprint and notes the potential of hydrogen as one form to help us decarbonise.

2. Welcomes the establishment of the Wales Hydrogen Trade Association.

3. Notes that Wales, with its vast natural resources, has the opportunity to join the pioneers in moving hydrogen forward rapidly for environmental, health and economic benefits.

4. Acknowledges the study already underway to use Anglesey as a pilot area for hydrogen schemes, as well as schemes underway in several other areas of Wales.

5. Calls on the Welsh Government to produce a Welsh hydrogen strategy.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. We are at a turning point as a society, and this debate today is one of the ones that we have to have as we transfer from the old world to the new world ahead of us: a world that has to realise how fragile it is, in terms of the environment, and is uncompromising in its willingness to innovate in the face of that particular situation.

I'm presenting and moving this motion today on the same day as a new organisation is officially launched, an organisation whose aims and objectives I'm very pleased to endorse. The launch of the Wales Hydrogen Trade Association reflects the fact that the world has woken up, I think, to the huge potential of hydrogen as a weapon against climate change. Developments linked to hydrogen will help us not only strive towards our decarbonisation goals, but also to clean up the air in our urban areas. Air pollution was the topic of one of Plaid Cymru's most recent debates here, just a few weeks ago.

Some of you will have had a go on the hydrogen bike, hopefully, which was on show outside the Senedd at lunch time today, where hydrogen energy took the strain off our legs. The possibilities for hydrogen really are endless in terms of meeting our energy needs. You'll have heard me many times in this Chamber promoting the environmental benefits of a shift towards EVs, or electric vehicles, and direct electric power is certainly the leading technology for ultra-low emission private cars at the moment, but hydrogen offers potential there too. We even have our own hydrogen car company here in Wales in Riversimple. If cars could widely run on hydrogen in future, we're already seeing more developed applications in larger commercial transport—lorries, buses, ships, trains—add to that the fact that heating systems, even whole power stations, could run on a fuel whose only emission is water, and given that hydrogen can be generated using purely renewable power, you start to get the picture.

Nineteen organisations, I think, form part of the new Wales Hydrogen Trade Association, from energy generation and distribution companies to construction companies, utilities, Riversimple, which I mentioned earlier, a host of organisations that can see they have a role or an interest—commercially, environmentally or indeed socially—in supporting investment in hydrogen in Wales in the future. What they've seen is that now is the time for Wales to make a statement that we want to be genuinely a part of this first major wave in this new energy revolution.

What I'm looking for, in effect, from tabling this motion, is for this Parliament to express its support for that, to express that we see in hydrogen an area of huge environmental health and economic benefits. And, of course, I'll be listening carefully to the Minister for not just words of support, but evidence of concrete action that Welsh Government is ready to take and take quickly. For example, it's great that Government has recently put out a tender document seeking a provider to

'provide support to Welsh Government...to help bring forward a proposed support pathway and developing pipeline proposals' in and around the development of hydrogen. It's a two-year piece of work, but I hope that we'll see projects begin to be developed now in parallel with that study. There's a study in Scotland, for example, that's due to report in just four months, by May this year, and we simply can't afford to miss this hydrogen-fuelled boat. And speaking of boats, I'm particularly excited about the potential of hydrogen to bring benefits to my constituency and the port of Holyhead; cross Irish sea traffic turning to hydrogen fuel could be a very important part of that.

The motion refers specifically to the potential for hydrogen developments on Ynys Môn. Just imagine the scope for using excess marine and wind renewable energy generated around Ynys Môn at night, say, to produce hydrogen in a plant in the north of the island, where we really need jobs, and using that to power road vehicles, trains and, yes, ships to and from Ynys Môn. Imagine then the potential of using the old Shell crude oil pipeline running from the north of the island directly to the north west of England, creating a new, environmentally innovative export industry, exporting hydrogen. Imagine tying that, then, into social enterprise, even.

We know about Morlais, the community initiative that's part of Menter Môn, which is developing a marine energy project in the demonstration testbed off the western Anglesey coast. But Menter Môn has also been leading a piece of work looking at the potential of the hydrogen industry on Ynys Môn: taking action locally for the benefit of the community and for the benefit of the environment. They, like me, see that we are looking at something here that can bring great benefits to us on so many different levels, from the local to the national, and indeed globally.

The German Government is excited about hydrogen. They're launching their national hydrogen strategy this spring. The German federal Government says that hydrogen is the new oil. I was reading earlier blogs and articles that refer to how hydrogen, for example, is going to transform supply chains globally and how it's going to be vital in decarbonising our homes, and how they're heated in particular.

There are projects in Wales already. I've referred to the tender from the Government and to Menter Môn's research into Ynys Môn as a hydrogen island. I'll refer also to the Milford Haven Energy Kingdom project in Milford Haven, which is trying to innovate in the shift from fossil fuels and fossil fuel gas to hydrogen. These are all things to be welcomed.

But, let us today make a clear statement that Wales wants to be an innovator in hydrogen. And as a sign of our seriousness and our intent in helping to lead in this battle against climate change, and to change to a new kind of industry as well, which will bring benefits on so many different levels, Wales, according to our statement today, will be part of that revolution.

I have selected the three amendments to the motion. I call on Andrew Davies to move amendments 1, 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar

Add as new point after point 1 and renumber accordingly:

Notes the UK Government’s investment into the hydrogen power sector, including a recent investment of £28 million into low-carbon hydrogen production projects across the UK as part of the Hydrogen Supply Programme.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to invest in zero-emission transport infrastructure, such as hydrogen-powered public transport that has been introduced elsewhere in the UK, as part of a wider strategy to tackle air pollution and carbon emissions.

Amendment 3—Darren Millar

Add as new point at end of motion:

Further calls on the Welsh Government to engage constructively with the UK Government to develop Wales’s hydrogen power sector, and to work with universities and businesses within the sector to ensure that Wales is at the forefront of this emerging technology.

Amendments 1, 2 and 3 moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the amendments in the name of Darren Millar—1, 2 and 3—attached to the motion. I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing the debate, in particular on the day that the Wales Hydrogen Trade Association was launched here at the Senedd, a development that I welcome. I think as the opener of the debate, Rhun, highlighted there are some exciting projects going on across the United Kingdom. That's why we think that it's important that we not just work on a Wales-only basis but we look across the United Kingdom at projects that are going on and see what research funding we can bring into Wales.

In fact, it's interesting to note that, from the UK Government's own assessment of this, and in particular about creating a clean energy market, there's the potential for 2 million jobs and £170 billion-worth of annual exports by 2030. The hydrogen transport programme, for example, which has just had £23 million-worth of funding, launched in 2017, has helped to accelerate this hydrogen vehicle roll-out and more hydrogen infrastructure, including refuelling stations, ahead of the UK ban on diesel cars and petrol cars by 2030.

If we look across and up to Scotland, for example, there have been some exciting developments there: the HySpirits project in the Orkney isles of Scotland, which is exploring the possibility of converting a craft gin distillery from using liquid petroleum gas to hydrogen to make the process more environmentally friendly; and the £100 million low carbon hydrogen energy project fund to deploy low carbon hydrogen production capacity to enable greater use of hydrogen as a decarbonisation option within the energy sector.

That's why it is really important, I would suggest, that we also link in our university sector—hence amendment 3, which calls for working with the research base within the university sector here in Wales to develop those opportunities. When you talk about transport, for example, Transport for London is seeking to introduce 20 hydrogen powered double-decker buses across London. Also, Green Tomato Cars, as they're called, which is a taxi company based in London, have also introduced hydrogen-powered taxis as part of their fleet. But if you actually said to the average punter in the street about hydrogen energy and the potential for hydrogen energy in our energy mix, many would look at you and wonder what you were talking about.

So, this debate will be an important start in that conversation. The alliance launched today will help, hopefully, inform many people about the exciting chances that exist out there, should this technology become more greatly deployed. But it is vital that we link the dots to make sure that we have connection between research that is going on across the United Kingdom, that the Welsh Government develop that research capability here in Wales with some pump priming, but also work to draw down funds—the significant funds, I would suggest—that have been made available by the other Governments in the United Kingdom to make sure that this technology is a serious alternative and a viable player in decarbonising our overall economy.

Looking at it from what I've understood over recent weeks, as such, looking into this subject, the IWA did touch on this in their policy paper 'Re-energising Wales', but they did call for greater research in this sector, and innovation, in particular about the development of new low and zero-carbon projects. I appreciate that I only have three minutes—this is a half-hour debate, which, most probably, doesn't do justice to the subject. But I'll leave it there and I hope that our amendments will find support in the debate this afternoon.

As I’m sure everyone appreciates, the aim of this debate is to place a real spotlight on the potential that hydrogen has, not only in terms of the environmental impact in Wales, but also the social and economic impacts that we could take advantage of if this sector were to be given the support and opportunity to grow that it deserves. We often think that we're in the vanguard in trying various different things, but as we've heard from Rhun, there are already nations that are implementing this technology. Even in the UK, there are hydrogen buses in places such as Aberdeen and Birmingham, and London is investing in hydrogen buses. I rode a hydrogen bike outside the Senedd just an hour ago. So, the technology is available. What we need to do is to implement it at a scale that will make this sector valuable and allow it to grow, but, simultaneously, ensure that Wales is in the fast lane when it comes to the innovative opportunities that exist with this technology, and, of course, that is the focus of the debate today.

Now, two years ago, Plaid Cymru commissioned a research document looking at the potential of hydrogen from the perspective of decarbonising transport in Wales, and, of course, one of the apparent things is that you need a specific funding source for hydrogen transport schemes. There is much more that we could be doing to use the opportunities provided by the Wales and borders rail franchise, the proposed metros and changing the bus fleet—we need to move swiftly in that direction. There was mention of a tender that's out from Government at the moment, and, certainly, we need a designated team drawn together from universities, local authorities and the Government in order to drive this agenda forward, and people who will draw specific proposals to identify funding sources and to be proactive, to make things happen, rather than just having some sort of drift, where you hope, one day, at some point in the future, things will come together. If we want this to happen, we will have to make it happen, and, clearly, people are looking to Government for leadership in that regard.

We need to do more to ensure that the public sector and private sector institutions decarbonise their fleets and move towards hydrogen, for example, and so on and so forth—there is so much I could say in that area. Rhun has already referred to Riversimple, I had the opportunity to visit the company last year in Llandrindod, and, of course, they have developed a prototype of a vehicle called Rasa. It is an eco-coupé—that is their description of that particular car—and the first model will be, hopefully, on the roads this spring, with the right support, and this is the challenge for Government. Vehicles could be coming off the production line in two years’ time that are light, very efficient and clean, that do not pollute.

The Government is willing to invest in companies such as Aston Martin and the combustion engine, and one recognises that there is room for those at the moment. But that’s yesterday’s technology, to all intents and purposes. Why not give £18 million to someone like Riversimple and invest in tomorrow’s technology? That’s where the innovation is; that’s where the opportunities arise, and that’s the direction of travel. So, my plea is that the Government should set its political sat nav now to ensure that we are moving in the right direction, and hydrogen is part of that.

I'm very pleased to speak in this debate this afternoon. I didn't realise I had three minutes—I thought I had a bit more, so I'm going to need to speed up a bit now.

I think it's been highlighted, and I apologise for not being at the launch of the hydrogen bike, because I was actually chairing the cross-party group on cancer at the time and couldn't be there. But it is important for us to remember a few things. Power accounted for 17 per cent of the UK's emissions in 2016, and that's according to the Committee on Climate Change. These figures need to reduce significantly—we all agree with that, and I don't think anybody in this Chamber would disagree with that—to be able to meet our 2050 targets. Now, transport and industrial emissions are two major causes of increased carbon emissions in the country, and we need to address these.

Most people have already focused upon the transport agenda, so perhaps I'll look at the heavy industry, and that's responsible for 40 per cent of carbon dioxide emissions in Wales. But converting these emissions into high-value speciality chemicals and food products turns this waste into a major resource. Converting industry from using hydrocarbon fuels to using hydrogen generated from green electricity sources can both decrease industrial emissions and simultaneously lower energy costs to create a more competitive regional economy. Now, using hydrogen for heating and transport could be one of those ways. Hydrogen can be very versatile. It's been mentioned, it can be transported by pipeline, it can be transported by road in tankers as a compressed gas, or actually produced locally in a decentralised system. Therefore, it has many potential uses in an overall energy system.

Now, we can make an important contribution to long-term decarbonisation, combined with good energy efficiency, cheap, low-carbon power generation, electrified transport and new hybrid heat pump systems. A report from the CCC, 'Hydrogen in a low-carbon economy', acknowledged the potential of hydrogen as a zero-carbon energy source. So, it's been recognised and there's no difference in that, but it could actually replace natural gas. I do remember the days of town gas, and we moved over to natural gas, and now we're talking about hydrogen replacing natural gas, and therefore, it's possible. It wasn't possible many years ago, because it was considered expensive. But today, it is a more realistic option to help decarbonise the UK, because the costs are coming down. And therefore, it is important that we get Government commitment to improving support to develop the UK's industrial capacity in this area.

And Wales has a number of advantages that can be utilised in the transition to a hydrogen economy. We have abundant renewable sources to provide an opportunity for a cleaner energy system. However, one point—[Inaudible.]—oil based, I've talked about the energy, the transport—I'll leave that to you; I'll leave that one for others to speak about.

We have fantastic projects in this country, and amendment 3 from the Conservatives highlights that Wales should do more with the universities. Well, I actually want to put on record my appreciation of what they are already doing with universities on some of the projects. We have FLEXIS—flexible integrated energy systems—and we have RICE—reduced industrial carbon emissions. Both are fantastic projects. And I'm also proud of the fact that there are two research centres in my constituency—Baglan bay energy park and in the university's second campus. They are doing fantastic jobs. And let me give an indication of how they're working with industry and Tata in particular—I'll be very quick, Dirprwy Lywydd: using hydrogen to look at how we can actually capture waste heat in Tata, to turn that into usable energy, so we reduce our emissions. Using hydrogen has become a cheap an efficient way of actually generating electricity—again, from Tata's waste gases and renewable energy. Because if they can actually get energy into water, split the water into hydrogen and oxygen, hydrogen becomes energy and oxygen can be used, actually, in water cleansing in water treatment plants, which are also based in Tata, by the way. So, there's another option there. So, we can—

Can you wind up, please?

We can use it. We need to look very carefully. I appreciate the work being done by Welsh Government, but we all need to back it now; we need to make sure that it goes from research to an industry, and then into developing across the UK.

Thank you. I now call the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

[Interruption.] Sorry. It went down the wrong way—sorry. This has been a really helpful opportunity to highlight a potential role of hydrogen in a zero-carbon energy system. Decarbonisation is driving a global shift in the energy world and the boundaries between transport, electricity and heat are becoming blurred, with energy being converted into different forms to address a range of needs.

The ability to store energy and use it when and where it's needed is vital for an efficient renewable energy-based system. The system will need to integrate renewable generation with storage and other services to minimise the need for new generation and ensure flexibility to meet peaks in demand. Smarter systems and appliances are needed to manage this increasingly complex system.

We expect to see low-carbon gas playing a greater role. It is not yet clear whether this will be in the form of biomethane, hydrogen, or other synthetic gases. Gases such as hydrogen may also have a role to play in helping us to store electricity generated from renewable sources during periods of low demand. The gas may then be converted back into electricity through combustion, or used as a heating or transport fuel. Targeted investment in a multivector system will help us to find the most effective solutions to serving peak demand. We are committed to this whole-systems approach to the energy transition that underpins our work on decarbonisation. Hydrogen is a natural energy vector to consider, as it has flexibility to provide heat, power, sustainable fuel for transport and is a medium for storage. The flexibility hydrogen could provide is of value to the whole energy sector. 

The potential for developing this is being explored through our Smart Living work as well as the FLEXIS programme and whilst we also participate in UK groups to co-ordinate work on hydrogen, Welsh Government already brings together the public sector, business and academics through its Smart Living demonstrators. Looking at how we transform the jobs in west Wales from fossil energy to low-carbon energy is fundamental to delivering a prosperous low-carbon Wales. A key example is the joint working we co-ordinated on the Milford Haven energy kingdom proposal, which secured a share of £21 million of Innovate UK funding to develop a detailed design to bring it closer to deployment.

Another success story is the Rasa, the Welsh hydrogen fuel cell car, supported by Welsh Government and European funding and now working on a pilot project to have cars in daily use. The Wales-based FLEXIS programme is looking at a range of innovations, many of which include hydrogen. One example is testing out how domestic appliances may be impacted by increased hydrogen in the gas supply. Understanding these impacts could enable new jobs in manufacturing. 

There are opportunities for Wales to build on these pilots and develop local and larger scale hydrogen-generation projects, both at the industrial scale and as an alternative to natural gas in rural areas. However, securing benefits for Wales will be dependent on successful demonstration projects taking place here. It also requires major investment to drive down the costs of hydrogen manufacture and storage. We need a low-carbon energy system, but not at any cost. Even with the current low financial cost of natural gas, we have people in fuel poverty. We need to build on the experience of making renewable sources, such as onshore wind and solar, the lowest cost sources of energy, applying these lessons to drive down the cost of flexibility and storage. 

I hope the enthusiasm of the Tory Members for this Senedd debate today will be translated into real commitment by their Westminster colleagues to provide the additional funding needed to help more renewable technologies become truly price competitive. There are a number of major energy announcements from the UK Government that are long overdue and I hope that, when these announcements are finally made, they will make it clear not just how they will support the development of these technologies but, where the responsibilities are non-devolved, how they will support the development of these technologies here in Wales.

The flexibility of gases such as hydrogen means we need to take a broader view of the energy system. An integrated system is likely to be cheaper for citizens in the long term and also help us to preserve security of energy supplies, even at times of peak demand. The UK National Infrastructure Commission believes these savings could be as large as £8 billion a year for energy users across the UK by 2030. I broadly support the motion and amendments, which, in my view, suggest the need to bring together and add further strategic focus to the wealth of activity already under way in Wales. No single solution can provide Wales with the low-carbon future it both needs and deserves. We need to consider the energy system as a whole. It is my intention to ensure that our thinking on the role of hydrogen and associated technologies across Wales is both co-ordinated and strategic. That is why a hydrogen strategy for Wales will be an integrated component of Wales's next low-carbon delivery plan for 2021-25.

Thank you. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate. 

Thank you very much. Only a minute or so remains to me. I won't summarise everything that's been said, but thank you for the contributions that we have heard. Andrew R.T. Davies noted that he, too, hopes that today, with the launch of the new Welsh group and this debate, is the start of a new period of intensity, if you will, of discussion with regard to hydrogen. Llyr Gruffydd spoke about the need to be truly innovative and proactive, and that’s what’s important. And thank you to Dai Rees for focusing on the element of whether hydrogen drives industry in Wales, which is so important. We need to decarbonise our industries and, of course, there are industries that make very heavy use of energy in your constituency.

In terms of what we heard from the Minister, we heard a summary of the different elements of uses for hydrogen. She also spoke about what the Government’s already done, and I think I summarised a lot of that work. I don't think I quite heard the urgency of what I am seeking in terms of what happens next, but, of course, the Minister is right to say that we need to start where we are. We need to build on the work that is being done now, and I’m excited about hydrogen—I’m genuinely excited, and I think we should all now keep a close eye on what the Government is doing to move this agenda forward. My criticism of this Government here isn’t very often that it does nothing, but that it’s not doing enough and with urgency.

Well, with this, we don’t have any choice now to take steps forward, or we’ll be left behind, rather than what we could be doing, which is being in the vanguard of this. And I think it’s going to be a revolution in terms of energy, energy production and use of energy globally.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? No—[Objection.] Just in time. Dear me. Good job I was just pondering. Right, okay. We'll vote on that item in voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.