1. What discussions has the Minister had in relation to the reports that Six Nations Rugby games may only be available on a pay-per-view basis in the future? 401

Thank you very much for the question. Broadcasting is non-devolved. This issue, therefore, is specifically for the consideration of the six nations committee and the broadcasters. I think it's important for me to say that the tendering process for broadcasting rights continues to be open at the moment, and, in responding today on behalf of the Welsh Government, I do so in the knowledge that there are issues that are the responsibility of the national governing bodies that are funded by us, and that there are issues here that are commercial in confidence.

Okay. Thank you for your response, Deputy Minister. What I would say is that—. Rugby is so very important to the people of Wales, and I'm sure we would agree on that.

In fact, the Six Nations Rugby games are watched by 82 per cent of the population of Wales. That's an absolutely incredible figure, and I think that, in some ways, a case can certainly be made for it being a unique case because of that.

But the debate about whether the games should move to a pay-to-view platform isn't just about rugby. It's about the fact that some things shouldn't be decided by who can pay the most. Now, I take the points that the Deputy Minister has made about the fact that this tendering process is very much still going on, that there will be matters here that will be confidential, but I do think that, because of the unique place that rugby plays in the hearts of lots of people in Wales, it is still important that we have a discussion about this in the Senedd.

Since the RFU or England Rugby sold the rights to their games to Sky a few years ago, millions of English rugby fans have been unable to watch their own team play. I don't think it's in anyone's interest for the same thing to happen to Welsh rugby.

You have mentioned some of the problems that explain why you can't answer on some of these issues, but, in terms of the Welsh language, my concern, and the concern of a number of other people as well, is that there is no certainty that commentary in Welsh will continue. So, may I ask you what discussions will you be looking to have with the Government in Westminster regarding the future of Welsh-language commentary—if S4C and Radio Cymru will still have the rights to carry on with it? And, if not, the concern is that a very large number of people in Wales will really lose out, and be disenfranchised.

If English-language coverage moves to Sky, then, put simply, the people will be priced out of their own traditions, and, I think it's fair to say, a part of their own culture. Of course, rugby is by far not the only national sport of Wales, but it does provide enjoyment to thousands of fans and inspires countless young people to pursue their own ambitions in the game, which is essential for the health of the game at a grass-roots level. So, Deputy Minister, you'll be aware that Plaid Cymru has written to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, arguing the six nations should be given the same special status in the Broadcasting Act 1976 as the FA Cup final and the Olympic Games—that is, they should be guaranteed to be free to watch for everyone. And I note that a number of the Labour backbenchers have sent a letter in a similar vein to the chairman of the Welsh Rugby Union. Is this an argument that you agree with, and will you be writing to the UK Government to make that case?

And finally, Deputy Minister, do you agree with me—although I think from your previous answer that I can probably anticipate what you will say—that, in the longer term, the way to ensure that decisions affecting Welsh sport and culture benefit Wales and the people of Wales, the only way to ensure that, is to pursue devolving broadcasting to Wales so that Westminster can't sell off parts of our own culture?

Well, there were around 10 questions there, I think, but I will seek to answer some of them. I haven't responded correctly to the first question, I realise. I haven't had direct discussions with the broadcasters or with the rugby union on this issue. That was the response that I should have given initially.

I accept that the situation that we are in is that we have a system here of listing events. And, if we go back over the development of this system, back to the period prior to 2009, the consultative committee chaired by my colleague David Davies recommended, amongst other things, that the list should be reviewed more regularly than has been the case to date. The response that's been given, including a recent response given in Westminster, is that there is no intention by the current UK Government to review that list of events. But, having studied this issue, my view is that the way that these events are listed in this way is not appropriate in the days of digital communications, and that includes all aspects—not just broadcasting, but all platforms where people can follow sport.

But may I say one thing? I don't see it as my role as a Minister within the Welsh Government responsible for this area to go and ask Westminster would they be so kind as to listen to us. I believe—[Interruption.] I believe that it is about time for us to make it clear that the views of the Welsh Government should be considered centrally in decisions that have an impact upon us, and one of the weaknesses with this debate is that the description given in the original legislation talks about issues of national importance, and here we are back to this issue. There are four nations within the United Kingdom, and what is appropriate as the basis for the culture of this nation is certainly as important as any of the four nations of the union.

As someone who believes that rugby, international rugby, should be on a free-to-view basis and who doesn't own a satellite tv, and never has owned a satellite dish, I do regret the position that the home unions find themselves in. But I accept that it is a professional game now, and, for those proponents who want to keep it on free to view, there does have to be an argument put where the revenues will be found to make sure that the Welsh grass-roots game can remain competitive and keep players here in Wales. And that's the invidious situation that the WRU and other unions find themselves in.

I asked you a question about the support of the union some months ago on a topical basis, Minister, and you indicated that work was under way between yourself and the unions to try and identify funding streams that might come in and alleviate some of the funding pressures at a regional level. Are you in a position today to give some of that information of the meetings that you've had to try and identify streams where Welsh Government might be helpful in making revenues available to the union that will take the pressure off pay-per-view tv? Because, ultimately, the union has to make its books balance and make sure that players' wages and stadium infrastructure is improved.

I'm very grateful to you for setting out the dilemma that this poses for the rugby governing bodies and, of course, to us as a Government. In responding to you earlier on this matter, I think I must have pointed out that our funding finds its way to governing bodies through the offices of the sports council, and on the advice of the sports council I would be reluctant to look for a way of supporting any of the 45, maybe, governing bodies of different sports that we have in a way that did not relate to the advice that we get from the sports council.

But, in response to your question, I can say that I'm waiting to see the results of the present process. I think it is essential for us, if we can find agreement in this Assembly on a way forward, to make our views clearly known. The suggestion was made earlier that this might be a very useful thing for us to have a debate on, and if that were to happen—I can't speak for the Trefnydd or for Government business managers—I as a Minister would welcome a debate on this matter and for this Assembly to come to a resolution on this issue, which would then be the considered judgment of this Assembly.

My days as a schoolboy hooker for Gowerton School first 15 are long behind me. In fact, my last outing was on the wing for the redoubtable Assembly rugby team, which does so much for charity and for raising awareness of important issues within Wales and elsewhere. But, could I say to the Deputy Minister, if the six nations disappears behind a pay wall, whether it's Amazon, Sky or anybody else, it may, as Andrew R.T. Davies has rightly said, fill a gap in the coffers commercially for some of the six-nation unions, but it will be an unmitigated disaster in terms of participation, including grass-roots participation? Because we've seen what's happened to other sports, like cricket, that have disappeared behind pay walls.

So, I will propose to the Deputy Minister a suggested way forward that he could help with, because it is different here in Wales. The point that he made about Wales as a nation being central to decisions on which sports should be protected must now be raised with the UK Government, because this will come back for future bidding rounds. In that case, we need to make the case that rugby has a different pedigree and tradition in Wales. It was not born out of public schools, it was born out of mining communities, all the way back to its inception in Wales. In the 1970s, the teams that played had lawyers and doctors alongside colliers who were working down the pits as well, or in the steelworks. It is a working-class tradition in Wales, and that's why we are desperate to see this decision not take place and that it disappears behind a pay wall.

So, could I ask him: could he make those representations, picking up the lead that he made to the UK Government, that they should now change the way that these decisions are made and that they are not made by UK Ministers alone? When they describe a nation, they should look to the nations of Scotland and Northern Ireland, and Wales as well, about what is important to us.

Could you also make representations here and now to ensure that ITV and BBC can indeed make a joint bid? Because in this current round, unless the UK Government are going to change their mind and make this a gold standard sport that is protected, then the only hope we have, in fact, of filling the coffers and actually keeping it away from behind a pay wall is to have a good joint bid from ITV and BBC.

I was pleased to submit a letter to the Welsh Rugby Union—a difficult position that they're in—from all Labour backbenchers adding to what has been mentioned today, stressing the importance of this. But I think the Deputy Minister might be able to help if he can take those two issues up and put them very strongly. We need a joint bid to go forward to keep it free to view for all the people of Wales. I would say, in closing: this will be a disaster for international rugby, as well as for Wales, if it disappears.

Well, in response to that very forthright statement, I can give undertakings that I will carry out what has been requested, because I am, after all, not only a member of the Government, but I'm a servant of this National Assembly, and it's very clear, in this exchange, what the views of Members are. I will be delighted to draw them to the attention—. Obviously, it's been made in this particular public space, and it will be known to everyone, what's been said. But, I give you the undertaking that this matter will be conveyed. In fact, I'm able to say that I might be able to convey it personally, because I shall be in London on other business in the next few days.

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister. The next topical question this afternoon is to be answered the Counsel General and Brexit Minister. Huw Irranca-Davies.