Group 10 is the next group of amendments relating to indemnity cover for volunteers and staff of the citizen voice body. Amendment 55 is the only amendment in the group, and I call on Angela Burns to move the amendment. Angela Burns. 

Amendment 55 (Angela Burns, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I'd like to formally move amendment 55 concerning indemnity cover.

It is an absolute ambition, which I rightly support, that Welsh Government should increase the number of volunteers who sign up to support and to run and be part of the citizen voice body. However, we must also be prepared to protect them. Unnecessary involvement in court cases would have a devastating effect on the number of volunteers that we could attract, and it takes up a huge amount of time, and we don't want to see the citizen voice body being distracted from its main objective. I noted at Stage 2 that, currently, community health councils do have indemnity for their members, with the code of conduct stating:

'An individual CHC member who has acted honestly and in good faith will not have to meet out of his or her own personal resources any personal civil liability which is incurred in execution of purported execution of his or her CHC functions, save where the person has acted recklessly'.

Now, the chief executive of the CHC also told me that it would be essential that volunteer members acting on behalf of the new citizen voice body are properly identified, and if it is to be the responsibility of the new body to make its own arrangements to provide such cover through that indemnity insurance, then the body would need to receive adequate funding to meet the cost of this insurance. And it's our understanding that such indemnity is unlikely to be necessary for staff, as the body would normally be vicariously liable for anything done by staff in the course of their duty.

Now, I think this is a really important amendment because, from my own personal experience at Hywel Dda, I had a situation where the Hywel Dda community health council was being sued by the organisation that had put together a consultation on—sorry, I've forgotten which one, but there have been a number of different changes and different consultations out there to change the direction of travel and the formation of services within Hywel Dda. But what we had was the CHC representing its citizens and saying, 'This consultation has not been done fairly; it's not been spread out across the whole of the Hywel Dda region in an appropriately fair, balanced manner', and they were threatened with being sued by the organisation who'd put the consultation together. And I can tell you, I had CHC members coming to see me, good honest people, salt of the earth people, people who were involved, because we're always saying, 'Let's get volunteers involved', who were going, 'Oh, my god, what's going to happen? Am I going to lose everything? How can I be liable personally? I don't understand; I'm doing this on behalf of the CHC.' This is why we need to ensure we have indemnity cover for volunteers as well as staff.

At Stage 2, the Minister's response was to explain that under 'Managing Welsh Public Money' it will be up to the board of the CVB to purchase an indemnity insurance policy, or to use their own resources to indemnify volunteers. And in his letter to the Chair of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee on 26 February, the Minister outlined that it would be up to the chief executive of the new body to decide whether to provide indemnity by bearing the risk, or through the purchase of commercial cover, and such a decision should always be made after cost-benefit analysis, in order to secure value for money under 'Managing Welsh Public Money' rules.

Now, I do accept the Minister's assertion that the appropriate mechanism for providing indemnity will be determined during the implementation phase for the citizen voice body. But as I said at Stage 2, while the CHCs have put in place procedures to rectify the issues that they encountered in 2013, it is unclear whether the CVB will have similar procedures. And I still have concerns about the possible consequences of not having an indemnity procedure set out. And without that indemnity set out for the CVB, this could still put a great number of people off volunteering for a very, very worthy organisation. We need to be aware that indemnity protection will inevitably eat into the CVB's budget, and therefore we need assurances from the Minister that the Welsh Government will provide sufficient resources to be able to purchase that indemnity for volunteers and staff.

Just a few words to say that we will support this amendment. I do believe that it’s crucial, if we are to attract people to give of their time to work in areas such as this, for the benefit of the public, that they have the necessary support to do that. It’s clear to us that it’s important that both staff and volunteers should have the appropriate legal cover for being involved in these activities.

The amendment places a duty on Welsh Ministers to make regulations to require the citizen voice body to hold indemnity cover for the benefit of staff and volunteers. I agree that the citizen voice body should decide and plan how to organise its indemnity cover, as should any public body. However, a provision of the type that is suggested is not, in my view, appropriate, and I cannot therefore support it.

I reported to the Stage 2 committee proceedings that it will be for the citizen voice body to decide how best to indemnify staff and volunteers. And I made reference to the 'Managing Welsh Public Money' guidance, which is clear that public sector organisations do not, as a general rule, purchase commercial insurance, except where there is a legal obligation to do so. However, it does also allow accounting officers, as part of a risk management strategy, to choose to purchase commercial insurance in certain circumstances. And it is true that the citizen voice body, just as the current community health councils do, will rely on volunteers in a very different way to other public bodies. Such decisions on a risk management strategy should always be made after a cost-benefit analysis, in order to secure value for money. It will therefore be for the chief executive of the new body to decide whether to provide indemnity by bearing the risk or through the purchase of commercial cover. And I have tabled a revised regulatory impact assessment setting that out. I have given the committee the written assurance that the appropriate mechanism for providing indemnity will be determined during the implementation phase of the citizen voice body, including carrying out a cost-benefit analysis. Requiring the body in regulations to obtain indemnity cover would therefore not be appropriate, and would not reflect the principles of 'Managing Welsh Public Money'.

Angela Burns to reply.

I just have a real problem with your rejection of this amendment, Minister. What we're asking is we are asking volunteers, people who may have some experience of dealing with large organisations, to come and volunteer for the citizen voice body, and to speak on behalf of the citizens they represent. If you were to boil it down into a different way of saying it, they are speaking truth to power. They need to be protected. And I really ask, Minister, that you change your mind. Truth to power puts you in a very vulnerable position. We're asking them to speak truth to power. They're not as big, they're not as tough, they're not necessarily as experienced as who they're speaking to. Truth to power is something that we should protect at all cost. Please vote for this amendment.

The question is that amendment 55 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Open the vote, therefore, on amendment 55. Close the vote. In favour 21, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, amendment 55 is not agreed.

Amendment 55: For: 21, Against: 28, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

We will have a short break of about 20 minutes, and I will ring the bell five minutes before we restart.

Plenary was suspended at 19:25.

The Assembly reconvened at 19:49, with the Llywydd in the Chair.