Group 18 is the next group of amendments and it relates to co-operation between the citizen voice body, local authorities and NHS bodies. Amendment 4 is the lead amendment in the group and I call on the Minister to move that amendment and speak to the group.

Amendment 4 (Vaughan Gething) moved.

Thank you, Llywydd. I agree with the board of community health councils in its view that NHS bodies and local authorities could do much to support the new citizen voice body in reaching as many people as possible so that they can share their views and experience of the care and support they receive. I've considered the views of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee and wider stakeholders on this point, and I'm pleased to offer this Government amendment, which I believe complements rather than cuts across existing provision within the Bill. It requires NHS bodies, local authorities and the citizen voice body to make arrangements to co-operate to support each other to promote the activities of the citizen voice body. It also requires NHS bodies and local authorities to make arrangements to co-operate with the citizen voice body to support it in seeking the views of the public about health and social services.

Its purpose is therefore to facilitate co-operation to ensure that the citizen voice body has the support that it needs from local authorities and the NHS to reach the public, and I ask Members to support the amendment. 

I'd like to move amendment 46, tabled in my name, and I will be opposing the Government amendment 4 in order to get to my amendment, because it's an amendment that's intended to ensure there's a duty to co-operate between NHS bodies, local authorities and the citizen voice body under recommendation 17 of the committee Stage 1 report. This has been brought forward from Stage 2, as we agree with the ethos behind the amendment. 

Whilst I appreciate your amendment 4 is very similar, I don't think it quite strikes the balance needed for the duty. I contend with the Minister's argument at Stage 2 that provisions under sections 17 and 18 already give the powers outlined within this amendment, as awareness raising together is not quite the same as receiving and analysing feedback from those who are receiving care from public bodies; instead, it's actually quite a narrow view. In the same vein, although amendment 4 is clearly agreeing with the necessity for a duty of co-operation, again, it focuses on awareness raising rather than collating feedback. 

We are comfortable with both these amendments, because they impose duties on the NHS and local authorities to co-operate with the new citizen voice body and are necessary to provide that body with the powers that it would need. We'd actually suggest that the Conservative amendment is the stronger of the two, because it also requires the NHS and local authorities to assist the citizen voice body in collecting independent feedback from people who are receiving or may receive health services or social services. Either way, we'll be supporting both. 

We believe that both the amendments in this group are essential to the effective operation of the citizen voice body. Without a legal duty to co-operate being placed upon NHS bodies and local authorities, there is a danger that the citizen's voice will fall on deaf ears. 

The Minister to reply to the debate. 

Yes. I thank Members for their broad support, across a range of people, for the Government amendment. I think it's worth while pointing out that the reason why we think the current Government amendment complements is that it goes to the other duties that already exist, for example section 18, the duty on NHS bodies and local authorities to provide information that it reasonably requests; the duty in section 17 for NHS bodies and local authorities to promote the awareness of the activities of the citizen voice body; and, of course, the code of practice on requests for access that we've just discussed.

When taken together, these provisions provide a strong and coherent framework for co-operation. In contrast, amendment 46 is a broad and undefined duty on NHS bodies and local authorities, and it isn't clear how that would necessarily operate. For example, on matters of service change, there may be a difference of view about how that duty to co-operate would actually be undertaken, rather than the clearer duty to provide information and to respond to reasonable requests for information. I’d ask people, therefore, to support the Government amendment and I'd ask Members not to support amendment 46. 

The question is that amendment 4 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 4, in the name of Vaughan Gething. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, one abstention, 10 against. Therefore, amendment 4 is agreed.

Amendment 4: For: 37, Against: 10, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed