The next item on our agenda this afternoon is the statement by the Counsel General and the Minister for European Transition on coronavirus, and I call on the Counsel General and the Minister for European Transition, Jeremy Miles. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. As Wales faces the greatest public health challenge it's faced for over a century, we have acted together in order to safeguard our communities, to protect our health and social care services, and to save lives. The steps that we are taking are making a difference. We know the sacrifices that people are making as we continue to live with restrictions on our daily lives. It's important that we do start to look forward cautiously and carefully to the future, anticipating what kind of place Wales and the rest of the world will be once the pandemic is under control. Managing the recovery from the pandemic will be a major challenge for all, including the Welsh Government.

The First Minister has set out a framework to lead Wales out of the coronavirus crisis in a way that keeps everyone safe and revitalises our economy as soon as possible. It lays out the basis for the easing of the current restrictions and will be informed by the best scientific data.

Tomorrow, the First Minister will again review the latest evidence and consider the current restrictions. He has been clear that his strong preference would be to agree a common set of measures and a common timetable across the UK. We are, of course, making our own preparations to ensure that the interests of the people of Wales remain paramount.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Looking further ahead, we will ensure that our future recovery work will be consistent with our programme for government, ensuring that the principles of social justice, fair work and environmental sustainability lie at the heart of our thinking. This will include learning from the experience of how Wales has risen to the challenge of recent weeks.

As part of our future recovery preparations, I have held an initial series of round-table discussions with world-leading experts—prominent figures in the field of economics, the labour market, climate change, public services, and business. Their contribution will help us to emerge from this crisis stronger and more resilient.

Each of these round-tables has focused on a specific issue: we've discussed the impact of the pandemic on public services, on the economy and vulnerable people, and considered how to ensure that we have a green recovery.

I've published the names of all of the participants in this first round of discussions. All the sessions have been energising and thought-provoking, offering insight into the challenge. They've provided a tremendous springboard from which we can move forward.

The discussion on a green recovery reinforces the importance of the environment to Wales's economy. We will be looking for progressive, innovative solutions to respond to wider environmental challenges and to answer the climate emergency. It also recognised that behaviours of both individuals and businesses have changed through the COVID-19 crisis in ways that have led to significant environmental benefits. We need to find ways to help people maintain these changes in the long term, and in working to rebuild our economy to deal with the impact of COVID-19, the judgments we make must and will reflect our commitment as a Government to tackling climate change and to enhancing biodiversity.

Supporting the most vulnerable and ensuring that no-one is left behind will also be at the heart of how we seek to emerge from the economic impacts of COVID-19. In our discussion of this, there was a recognition that there needs to be an open public debate on the kind of Wales that we all want; a recognition that there has been a shift in the value people place on different sectors of the economy, with a renewed appreciation of the huge contribution of our key workers.

New supply-chain and innovation opportunities have also emerged from the dreadful challenges we have all been facing. The discussion on public services was broad-ranging and covered the breadth of our much-valued public services. The discussion focused on three broad cross-cutting themes: the resilience and reform of public services; the digital agenda—and in terms of the role it can play with regard to transformation and tackling digital exclusion; and then the role of public services in the places, in the communities, that they serve.

Life with COVID-19 under control will not simply be a matter of returning to normal. Much will have changed profoundly, and getting a broad perspective from leading international experts is an important part of bringing fresh independent thinking and creativity to our strategy for addressing that new reality. But it is of course equally important that we hear from people in Wales, and in the coming weeks I'll be convening a further series of virtual round-tables with experts from across Wales, who will bring their own expertise to the discussions. We'll also be hearing from our social partners and from stakeholders across Wales, and we're also encouraging submissions to be sent to futurewales@gov.wales, and the ideas are already coming in.

So, while we draw in external views, our recovery plans will be grounded in Wales and reflect the unique challenges and opportunities that we are facing. I'd like to close by thanking all our partners for their significant efforts in responding with incredible pace to the challenges and problems posed by this terrible disease. Their ongoing support will be a vital part of our recovery plans.

I want to thank the Minister for his statement and to wish him my best wishes as he starts this new role. Repairing the damage our economy and our society is going to face is likely to be the most significant challenge that the Welsh Government has faced since it was first established, so I'm really pleased to see the creation of this new role in co-ordinating the recovery.

I agree with what you've said, Minister, that we don't want to return to business as usual after this crisis, and by that I mean a return to considering it to be acceptable to pay care workers such pitiful rates, and, in a wider sense, a return to tolerating shocking levels of poverty in an allegedly rich society.

The emphasis on economic, environmental and social justice that was identified in your statement, Minister, is certainly to be welcomed as well. It's a way of making sure we make the best of this world-changing event, and create a future that's free of the mistakes of the past. In terms of the economy, the past few weeks have brought to bear who the key workers in our society really are. They're not the people earning above a certain threshold as per the UK Government's original immigration plans but the people who keep us safe. You've referenced, Minister, the fact that this appreciation shift has taken place, but could you tell us how the Welsh Government intends to synergise social value with economic fairness in the future? Do you have plans to implement a new deal for social workers, for example giving them fair pay and career paths? And I'd also like to know whether you have any plans to offer economic and mental health support to the key workers who've really borne the brunt during the crisis?

Thank you, Delyth Jewell, for those questions, and I think the challenges that you identify in your question were very much at the heart of the discussion that we had on Monday of this week, which focused exactly on the impact on the economy and on vulnerable cohorts of people in the economy. One of the issues that we discussed at some length, really, was the point that you have just made and the First Minister was addressing in the questions to him earlier, which is that recognition of our dependence, as a society, on people doing roles that have been undervalued and overlooked, as he has said in other contexts. The notion that we are celebrating anew the role of key workers who have not had the recognition in many sectors that they should deserve is absolutely at the heart of the sort of things that we'll need to and wish to address as part of repairing and recovering from COVID. You've talked specifically about social workers, and I'd like just to associate myself with remarks the First Minister made earlier about the need to make sure that social workers, in particular, are rewarded for the contribution they have always made, and the visibility of their contribution I think is particularly enhanced in these current circumstances.

I was also struck by the way that some of the differential impacts that COVID has had on particular groups in our society who have suffered, you know, particular vulnerability at work. So, a high concentration in the sectors affected by COVID of people who are under 25, a disproportionate effect in terms of the sectors that are in furlough on women over men. So, I think the pressures and the burdens that COVID is imposing on the economy is exposing some of those underlying unfairnesses, which we will all want to tackle and which this process is an effort to understand how best we can do that as we emerge from the new challenges that COVID places on that.

Thank you for that, Minister. I am sure that I'm not alone in sensing a growing fatigue amongst some members of the public with the current restrictions, so as much as I fully appreciate that the focus of your work is going to be on wider policy issues, it would be really helpful if you could also consider how there could be a road map of how we are coming out of the lockdown. Some of the simple things that people miss most, like embracing family members that they haven't been able to see for a while—how that could link in with the far wider-reaching issues, the important issues that you're looking at. In terms of the social aspect of your work, could you tell us, in the medium term, how you're going to tackle, as a Government, the mental health crisis and loneliness that have been exacerbated by the crisis? We've also found out that homelessness was in many ways a political choice of Government, so does the Welsh Government intend to learn from what's happened with this crisis and abolish homelessness for good, not just when it is crucially medically necessary as it is at the moment?

In terms of the environment, how are you going to balance the needs of responding to this current public health crisis with responding to the crises that hadn't gone away, like the climate emergency and all of the inherent tensions between the two? How do you intend to push for a massive shift towards public transport use at the end of this crisis, when the timing is right, for example—and I appreciate that's not an easy balance to strike at all? How will the Welsh Government ensure that creating a health environment plays a key role in its plans in all portfolios in the future?

Finally, Minister, I'd ask if you're going to be working with behavioural economists to tackle some of the bad habits that people may have fallen into during this lockdown, like no longer maybe recycling as much, and how we can also promote some of the really good habits, such as not using cars as much and using digital technology more? Will you consider, for example, having car-free zones in cities on certain days of the week or looking at the possible benefits of moving to a four-day week in the public sector? I know you won't have all the answers to this now, Minister—I fully appreciate that—but I'd like to hear some of your initial thoughts on some of these matters.

Well, I think the breadth and depth of the range of questions that Delyth Jewell has posed there is its own illustration of the set of challenges that we all face as a country and internationally, indeed, in responding to COVID and the new realities it will create. I think any one of those questions merits an hour-long answer, but I won't test the patience of the Llywydd with that.

Just to give, if I may, some thematic responses, the First Minister has published the framework that will guide his decisions in relation to how we move out of lockdown when the time comes. To the point that you make about that, the equality aspects are very keenly understood by us, because the experience of the lockdown and, indeed, the experience of infection by COVID, is not felt in the same way by people in all our communities, and so those judgments are important reflections in how we take those steps, and that's part of that framework. And I'm particularly struck by the impact on children in disadvantaged homes who may not have access to the resources that some others have, and the keen impact that will be felt by those in a continuing way after COVID, which goes to that broader point about the kind of new country we would wish to see and the fairness agenda, which she's talked about.

In terms of public services, there was a whole session that we've had, discussing some of that, and I think one of the aspects, which her question alludes to, is our capacity in the current crisis to respond, in some ways, more rapidly and in a more joined-up way than Governments everywhere have been able to do in the past. I think, in particular, the efforts around homelessness, the intervention there and the rapidity of the effect of it have been particularly striking.

Just briefly on that last point that she made, about the environment, I think she makes a very good point, if I may say, around the behavioural changes that have been contributors to the better air quality and to the appreciation of buying food locally, where people can do that, and the access to green spaces, all of which is very positive, and I'm sure most of us would hope to see that that would continue. But I think one of the lessons, signals, and salutary notes for us, I think, is that it isn't a given that when we come out the other side of the time we're living in now, people will wish to continue all those behaviours. It's part of the challenge, I think, for all of us in public life, and governments in particular, to try and foster those behaviours that can contribute to some of those broader goals.

I think public transport is a very good example of that, and she highlights that in her question. We would hope, I think, that people would wish to maintain the kind of air quality that we have and find it easier to use public transport than they have in the past, but people will also be judging against that the social distancing imperatives, won't they? So, there'll be a complex set of judgments that people will want to make, and we need to try and help people to build on those positive behaviours, while recognising that this isn't always going to be a straightforward journey. But certainly, the choices that we make in how we come out the other side from the COVID experience will have a bearing on the climate change objectives that we've set ourselves and which we're still very much committed to delivering.

Can I thank you, Minister, for your statement, and also for the briefing that I received from you today? It was very useful, actually, just to get your perspective on how your role fits in within the Government, because it is such a broad role and has an impact on so many different departments, so I welcome you to it. It's going to be a big challenge, I think, for everybody to adjust to the new working arrangements that might emerge after this pandemic is under control, and you certainly have my support in wishing you all the very best in how you take this forward.

We've obviously hit a strange period in our history that's going to shape the way that we view things, going forward, for everybody who's been through this pandemic, just in the same way that people who've been through wartime scenarios and previous pandemics like the Spanish flu pandemic have experienced. And, as you've alluded to, we've seen some significant changes in behaviour; lots of people who never thought it would be possible to be able to run their businesses from home or to have most of their staff working outside of their headquarters and office premises have found that they've been able to do that, and, of course, that's brought its own challenges as well, in terms of people's mental health and well-being, particularly where they might be individuals who live alone.

But, clearly, in spite of the fact that we've taken those leaps and bounds forward, there are still going to be some challenges. You've mentioned the digital issue already for young people, particularly, in our schools in terms of being able to continue with their education. But, obviously, there are lots of people who might be finding it difficult to continue with their work pattern because of the digital divide that they are experiencing. So, the digital divide between rural areas and urban areas, for example, I think is a bit of a challenge, given the fact that not everybody has access to high-speed broadband, and then, of course, we've got this divide between, perhaps, older and younger people. So, can you tell me a little bit about whether this is a theme within the work streams that you're taking forward? I think that that in particular is going to be something that I would hope we would all want to embed in the future, in terms of our economy being digitised, going forward, because I think that if we're ahead of the curve in terms of building the right infrastructure and making sure that people have got access to these things, then that would be a good thing for us in the longer term.

Can I also just touch on the round-tables that you've had? I'm very pleased to see that those have taken place and that you've got more that are planned. Having looked at the membership of them to date, they do appear to be a little bit business light. Can you give me some confidence that there are more people from the private sector, and the business sector in particular, that are going to be in the next panels and round-tables that you've got planned?

Thank you for that. Just on your initial remarks—and thank you for the support that you've indicated—with regard to the broad-ranging aspects of the role, one of the key points that we are seeking to ensure happens is that the Government in all its aspects has a common understanding of some of the challenges that lie ahead and that that can be fed into the work of Ministers and civil servants and be mainstreamed in our shared understanding, across portfolios, of what some of the impacts are. It's obvious that there'll be interventions in one area that will impact others, and so that's part of the rationale.

On the digital point, which was the main point of his question, the issue of digital exclusion absolutely is at the heart of the sorts of issues that we've been discussing, both in terms of the immediate response to COVID, recognising that there are benefits, clearly, in how local authorities have been able to provide much more information online about the support they are able to give to people who are isolated, and the speed, really, of our ability to introduce GP appointments online, over video, at scale. I think part of the challenge for all governments in the future, really, is not to unlearn that behaviour and to be able to make that kind of change into the future in, hopefully, more benign contexts, in more benign climates.

But the point that you make is absolutely at the heart of the discussion we had yesterday, for example, about public service reform and the importance, obviously, of continuing the process of delivering services digitally, because that frees up human capital for other support the state can give, and also to build into that the notion of how we tackle exclusion, so that you're involving the user and the service user in the design of those services so that you're taking people on that journey with you as well as addressing the points in your question around digital competence, but also digital access. Yes, it's about broadband, and that does have a spatial dimension. It's also about access to kit, isn't it? Not every household has a laptop and a couple of smartphones, and people can't go to libraries at the moment. Internet cafes don't exist in the way they used to. So, these are access challenges as well as challenges of competence.

There will also be, I think, challenges in the future from the choices that he is describing in his question. People who can work from home may choose to do that more in the future than they have. That may do something to where people choose to live. If people don't feel they have to be in such close commuting distance, then the distribution of habitation may change, and that may also pose pressures in the future on broadband distribution. So, there are quite big challenges there.

On the representation of business, in a sense, there were 21 people, I think, over three sessions, so, actually, everyone is lightly represented, I think, in that context. We had a couple of businesspeople, I think, in one of the sessions yesterday, who spoke very much from a finance perspective and from an entrepreneurial perspective, which I thought was a very important contribution to the discussion and a very valuable contribution to the discussion. We'll obviously want to make sure, when we do our next set of round-tables, that we continue that level of representation across the board, to make sure that there's a range of voices in that mix.

Thank you for those answers, Minister. Can I just ask you as well about how you're working with other Governments across the United Kingdom? Clearly, we've heard messages from the First Minister and other Ministers about the desire to lift the current restrictions on a pan-UK basis, and, of course, we all recognise that, in terms of our economic links, for example, there is a big east-west dimension to the Welsh economy, particularly in north Wales and in parts of the M4 corridor, which we can't ignore. So, if restrictions are lifted on one side of the border and not on the other, that will add all sorts of complications, potentially, to the way that we come out of the pandemic and recover from it.

So, can you tell us precisely what sort of discussions you are having? I know that it's obviously important that we ensure that Wales's interests are looked after within any kind of recovery that we have and lifting of restrictions, but can you also give me some assurances as well that there won't be different geographic approaches within Wales that could potentially increase the risk of an increased infection rate in places where, for example, tourism is important? If you re-open the gates on tourism, perhaps that could disadvantage places like north Wales and parts of mid and west Wales, too. One of the issues that seems to be the case is that we've obviously got different rates of the spread of the pandemic in different parts of the country, so I know that north Wales, for example, appears to be about two or three weeks behind the situation in south Wales. So, these are the sorts of things that people are expressing concern to me about through my postbag at the moment.

I thank him for that. On the question of the approach to easing he lockdown, as he will know, the First Minister has published his framework for how those decisions will be taken. With regard to discussions with other Governments, on the future focused work, I haven't engaged in discussions with other Governments on that. I think we've been very quick to move on that, and I think many of the participants in the round-tables have said, 'It's commendable that you're moving so quickly. Some things are still emerging, but it's very good that you've started so soon'. But I think we will see other Governments, obviously, doing that; I'm sure they're doing it internally already.

Plainly, there are discussions going on between Governments around the issue of how lockdown is lifted. The First Minister has been very clear about his preference, as I mentioned in my statement, for a four-nations approach. That is much the best way, if we can achieve that. But there have obviously been along the way points at which Governments have acted in ways that are slightly different from each other. The UK Government has sometimes chosen to move first. The Welsh Government on other occasions has moved first, just because the circumstances and perhaps sometimes the advice and the balance of judgment in countries has been slightly different. But the point that he raises in his question is important, about the geographic distribution of the rate of transmission. There is a degree of variation in that, and that's obviously a judgment that will need to be taken in the round. But I think the key point is to focus on the seven tests that the First Minister has laid out, and, as I said earlier, one of the dimensions to that is that dimension of equality, which will be important.

Thank you for your statement, Minister. There was initial focus on an advisory group, and, in the media commentary, a lot of that was about Gordon Brown and was he the person to be helping us out of the recovery. But I see from this list you've got a much broader number of people. Can I just clarify that those recovery round-tables are the same thing as the advisory group from outside Wales that was earlier referenced? I know there was involvement from Swansea University and Cardiff University in that list, so has there been—? Is it outside Wales now, and then Wales for the future ones? Or is it—? There was a reference from Darren Millar that surely we should have some people from the private sector in it. You said there were at least two. I can't see any who obviously come from a private business background, or are at least currently working in that, from the list that's been given. I note that the New Economics Foundation, Resolution Foundation and the Institute for Public Policy Research are all heavily represented, and I just wonder: is that accepted and intended, as a Government of the left, that you want to have advice externally with at least greater representation from people of a similar outlook?

You spoke about the recovery document that was published on 24 April, and that seems to be driving, from what you say, a lot of what you're doing, but you also then repeat this strong desire, which I support, for us to come out on a four nations, common basis. Isn't there, though, a tension between that desire to do things in common with the other three nations and their Governments in this respect, and having a document that you didn't consult on before that sets all these equality tests, emphasises the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, says that lifting restrictions must be rooted in distinctively Welsh values? If you insist on all of those things, doesn't that make it more difficult, at least in some areas, to do the lifting of restrictions at the same time as the other nations?

I think you also said that no-one wanted to go back to business as usual. You reference, say, for instance, maintaining environmental changes. Do we really want to maintain the environmental changes that follow from having only 40 per cent of the usual private car use? I think you touched on this a bit, but we can see, in China, a lot of people are going out and buying new cars, and the road use from private vehicles has recovered a lot faster than public transport. But surely a lot of people actually would be quite keen to get back to business as usual and would see business as usual as a lot better than being in the situation we're currently in, and they'll worry that your equality tests and various—what some people might perceive as—ideological requirements for how restrictions should be lifted may slow us getting back to normal and getting the economy going, letting people get out and having their well-being supported by that.

So, we're suffering, I think, particularly in Wales—. There's one study that Sky had of analysis that 43 per cent of Welsh towns were in the most affected categories, ex-industrial communities and coastal towns in particular. And, if you're so concerned about equality, given COVID-19 is increasing those inequalities, surely the most important thing is to lift those restrictions as soon as possible. We see there is now capacity in the NHS. The transmission is below one. We were meant to be squashing the curve, keeping it within the capacity of the NHS. We've done that. Why are you maintaining these restrictions and increasing the economic damage and increasing the negative impact on inequality?

Firstly, on the question of process, as I indicated in my statement last Wednesday to the press conference, the first stage of engagement of the external advisory group is the set of round-tables, and I'm hoping, as I indicated, I think, then, for a subset of that group to be an ongoing feature of our work. So, nothing has changed since I made the statement last Wednesday in relation to that. 

He asks about the geographic mix—yes, there are people from Wales, there are people from other parts of the UK, and there are people from other parts of the world, which is the kind of mix that I think I indicated I was hoping to achieve, so I'm pleased that we've been able to do that. 

In relation to business, there are entrepreneurs and people from a finance background on the panel, on the round-table—contributors. There is a bias towards a range of people who share our values in a very broad sense, just because we want to make sure that we can apply our values in a new context. That is our choice as a Government, to wish to continue applying the values that we were elected to deliver and believe very powerfully in. But we've also brought voices into that mix that may not share entirely those values, and so that's important. We have somebody there who has, in the past, worked for a Conservative Government. So, there is a more complex picture than I think his observations would have led us to believe.

In the second set of questions around lockdown—well, I think I'll just repeat what the First Minister has said on this on a number of occasions. The document is part of the commitment by the Government to be as transparent as we can be in explaining to people in Wales the sorts of principles that are relevant to the decision to lift lockdown when the time comes, and the framework for making that decision. We take a different view about the values that are relevant to that set of choices. But I think, again, as the First Minister has said, publishing that document is an attempt to help shape that UK-wide norm. I think his question implies within it a sense of the Welsh Government doing something that is a deviation from the norm, if you like, where you take the Government in England's perspective as the foundational point. That's not how I see devolution. Governments across the UK are entitled to put forward a vision for how they think things can work, and, where we seek a four-nations basis, that's a contribution to that discussion of Governments in parity, and that, I think, is what the First Minister has done in publishing that document.

He's right to say that the behavioural impact of COVID has been mixed, hasn't it, and I share with him, I think, a view that is to say that it may well be the case, as we come out of COVID, that people don't wish to continue some of those behaviours, And, some of them, you'd understand why that might be, because they obviously involve difficult choices. The point I was simply making was, where some of those behaviours are capable of contributing to broader objectives that we'd want to see, then we as a Government should try and see if we can continue supporting people to make those choices where they can. 

His basic message is: lift the restrictions as soon as possible. I think the point that has been repeatedly made on behalf of the Government is that the time for lifting the restriction is when it's possible to say to people in Wales that it is safe to do so. And the First Minister, I'm sure, will approach the task of considering the question of lifting lockdown with that very much in mind. 

Minister, I'm interested in the practical machinery of Government here, and how it is going to deliver. So, could you tell us a little more about how the advice provided from these individuals outside Government is going to get into the work of Government, and get there at speed? And, secondly, I know that lots of speakers have touched on the environmental issues, and I note that a report was published from the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales today. How is your work going to engage with that of the future generations commissioner to secure these environmental benefits in particular, to ensure that there's going to be joined-up working, but no duplication of work?

I thank Vikki Howells for those questions. The first point she makes— it absolutely goes to the heart of it, doesn't it? So, convening round-tables, in a sense, is—it is what it is, in that sense of the process of doing it. The key is to take the output and the reflections and make sure that then actually helps shape our understanding. So, the round-tables, and the external process that follows from it, is one of those strands. There is a second strand that is designed to engage our social partners—obviously with whom we have very well established relationships already—and then a third strand is one which is around ensuring that the various stakeholders in the various departments that Government have are able to feed directly into our thoughts, in a similar way to the work that we did in relation to preparing for Brexit, to ensure there's a network that people can feel they can use to make sure their voices are heard directly to Government. 

But, alongside the work of the external group, the First Minister has asked me to chair an internal group, which is really focused on recovery and the future, to make sure that those external reflections are fed directly into the work of the Government at large, really. And that will have a range of representation on it in the usual way. So, the objective is to make sure that policy development and planning for the future, as I mentioned to Darren Millar earlier, has a kind of common understanding across Governments, that we are testing our assumptions against that common projection of what things might look like. 

In terms of the second set of questions, I've begun to read the report; I haven't yet concluded it. It's about 800 pages, I think, so it's quite some undertaking, but I've started to read it, and I'm meeting the commissioner, if not this week, then early next week—I think this week, actually—to talk exactly about the sorts of things that she has referred to in her question. Plainly, much of that work, as she will know if she's started to engage with the report—. It says, doesn't it, that COVID has come in at the point when the report was being worked on, so there are some reflections in there about that, as you would expect. But, yes, I am looking forward to meeting with her in the next few days to do exactly that.

You mentioned, Counsel General, a number of times the effect of this crisis on young people and on their future. And you've also mentioned the pressure on families, particularly families who were already suffering deprivation before the crisis hit. Can I ask you two questions in relation to that? One: how do you plan to consult with children and young people as you're developing your programme for recovery? It seems to me it's absolutely crucial, because it's their futures that are going to be most affected by the decisions that we're making now. And would you agree with me that this is a time now for us to be ambitious about some of those structural inequalities? And should we not be setting ourselves a target, for example, that, by the end of the next Assembly term, no child in Wales will be living in absolute poverty? It seems to me that this is a time when people will be ready for Governments to do big things and be ambitious. And I think we need to see that, as we come into recovery, our children and young people are being prioritised.

Well, thank you for that very important set of questions. On the first point, there is work under way already about engaging children and young people in the immediate COVID response. But, on the broader kind of future-looking point, I think she makes a very good point, and it's been clear in the three sets of discussions—even when they haven't principally been about the experience of young people and children, that has come to the fore very, very quickly. The issue of being at home, when perhaps school has provided, in the lives of some children, a more supportive environment, then the question of enhancing or entrenching those inequalities, is obviously very stark.

But then as you look towards older younger children, if you like, people looking for a vocational path, a vocational education—there are clearly going to be challenges when you have employers facing their own pressures in the future. And then you've also got the challenge from reluctant students, if I can use that term—people who aren't sure about going to university now, because of the turbulence. So, there's a whole range of ways in which COVID continues to impact, obviously. And she will have seen the announcements that the education Minister has made, in particular about digital resources and so on, and some of those interventions through school, and free school meals, which are intended to try and alleviate the worst of those impacts. But it's absolutely the case that they will have an effect.

And I do think that the scale of ambition that her question implies is the right test for all Governments to set themselves, really. And I think one of the lessons that we will—one of the points for us to remember in this process, as a Government, is that we have some of the levers for addressing some of the challenges that lie ahead, but, actually, as we have seen in the fiscal interventions for COVID, a substantial amount of that has come from the UK Government. And so, actually working with other Governments to make sure that we are ensuring that there's a different approach to investment across the UK in public services and the funding of the public realm, and for that kind of level of fiscal intervention to be possible, I think is part of the challenge as well, and again is something that came up in a number of the discussions. But, yes, that level of ambition, of looking at the vulnerabilities across the UK of people going into the COVID crisis, which the crisis has emphasised and thrown into stark relief—I think that's absolutely part of the challenge, yes.

Nick Ramsay. Can I have Nick Ramsay's microphone turned on?

Is that working?

Yes, it is. Carry on.

I was talking to myself for a while. Diolch, Llywydd. And thank you, Minister, for your statement. I've got to say, it's good to hear a statement—we're in such difficult times, it's good to hear a statement talking about some of the opportunities that we face beyond the current COVID pandemic, rather than just some of the immense challenges that we face.

Minister, you mentioned the future generations commissioner, and the publication of the much-awaited report yesterday. Audit Wales have also done a fair bit of work on that report; I know you said you were still reading through it. Could you tell us a little bit more about what discussions you've had with the future generations commissioner regarding some of the proposals in that report and some of the ideas for the future? Because I think they are going to be key to the new Wales and the world as we come out of the COVID-19 pandemic.

You mentioned a four-nations approach. We've often spoken about vis-à-vis a Wales-only approach, and recently the UK Government has said that we could stagger commuting times, for instance, and encourage homeworking to reduce congestion when we do come out of the COVID crisis. Is this something that the Welsh Government is looking at in conjunction with the UK Government, in discussions, or is it something that the Welsh Government is looking at itself? We know that a fair amount of money in the past has been earmarked for infrastructure projects and possibly some of that money could be released if more people are going to be working from home. And, as you said in your statement, this is one way that we can start to get to grips with the climate emergency.

And finally, Llywydd, the approach to COVID recovery. I didn't get a chance really to speak to the economy Minister, but whereas in the past the Government's economic approach has revolved around the economic sectoral approach, it doesn't seem to be that that is factoring into the COVID recovery approach, and there may be very good reasons for that, i.e. wanting to free up resources as much as possible. But could you tell us what discussions you're having with the economy Minister to make sure that key sectors of the economy, such as high-tech manufacturing, for instance, which are going to be very important as we come out of this pandemic and rebuild the economy—what is being done specifically to assist those areas of the economy that are going to drive us forward and make sure that, in the future, the Welsh economy is stronger than it is at the present time? Thank you.

Thank you for that set of questions. Well, the first and last points take us in the same direction, I think, don't they, in terms of identifying those areas where, in reconstructing the economy, we seek those opportunities, some of which we've learnt or perhaps re-learnt in the last few weeks, in particular around the digital space, the digital delivery of public services, and that plays into the role that technology businesses and employers will have in the future of Wales, as he indicates, but also in terms of more traditional sectors, so, for example, our ability to develop capacity to produce PPE, which has also been a feature of the last few weeks. So, there are things that we can learn and hope to build from that. And I think, in that sense, there are opportunities. I think it's difficult language to use in the context of the current situation that people face. But I think, clearly, where there are things that we can learn from, it's incumbent on us to do that. 

You mentioned the work with the future generations commissioner. That's exactly the kind of thing that I hope to be able to talk to her about in the coming days actually, so we'll be sharing some reflections very soon on that. And you mentioned the audit work, which I haven't yet looked at, but I will do that.

On the broader point about how the world of work is changing, well, I think that is part of this; it is an absolutely important part, but it is part of it. The changing of work patterns and how people respond to the need to continue to persuade and instill confidence in the workforce that they are in a safe environment will drive a lot of change, I think, for some time, won't it? So, homeworking will be a feature of that, which we obviously understand, and, as you say, staggered work days and other initiatives. But that poses a number of other challenges for us as well, doesn't it? So, for example, in Wales, we have a relatively higher proportion of key workers and a relatively lower proportion of workers from home in the current COVID situation, because of the make-up of our economy. So, the task will be to support those who are able to do that and want to continue to do that. And we don't underestimate the challenges that employers will face in addressing what are a multiple number of changes. I think there will be an important role for Governments to play together in trying to have a shared understanding of what the future can look like and I think, certainly across the UK, that the four-nations approach will play a continued part in that as well as in the immediate response—at least I hope it will.

I'm grateful to the Minister for his statement this afternoon. In answers to questions, the Minister has majored on some of the themes that he intends to follow, and I hope he does follow those themes. I was very taken with the way he dismissed the nonsense from Mark Reckless about equality. I think it's got to be fundamental to where we are as a Government and as a country. But in terms of the themes, I would also like to encourage him to look at place-based solutions as well. He's very aware, and I know he's read the report from the Centre for Towns that identified my own constituency in Blaenau Gwent, my home country in fact, as well as other communities across the Heads of the Valleys, as being at risk of being particularly badly affected by the economic aspects of COVID. And so, in terms of addressing these scenes and delivering on what I think are some very exciting opportunities that he's identified during this conversation, he'll do so in a framework of place-based solutions as well, for those communities that are facing particular challenges as a consequence of this experience. 

Yes, I think that is a very important point, and I have read the report to which he refers, and I think it makes stark reading, doesn't it? And I refer back as well to the point that Darren Millar made about the vulnerability of some of our coastal communities as well in consequence. I think that just demonstrates again the scale of the challenge, but I think it's a really important point to bear in mind. What we are not always able to predict, and no Government can, is the impact on particular sectors of particular development. The economy works in a more complex way than that. But what we will all know, at first hand, is what the spatial impact of that looks like in our own communities. And, so, I think looking at it through that lens is completely fundamental to this it seems to me.

One of the discussion points that we had at the public services round-table yesterday was—. It started as a discussion about the place-based delivery of public services, you know, looking at a more joined-up focus on place and how they can be delivered, but that quickly turned into the role of public services as agents in a community. So, if you have a hospital or an FE college or a university, that's a significant—. There's a sort of role for public services as a kind of agent in that economy, isn't there, and in that society? So, I want to reassure him that that lens is absolutely one that we want to bring to the work, because I think it is the one, in many ways, that people experience most at first hand, isn't it? We will all know the impact on high streets that we envisage happening from COVID as a consequence of some of the closures, in my own constituency and that of a number of Members. That's already clearly an issue of great concern. 

In six weeks' time, we will reach the fourth anniversary of Britain and Wales voting to leave the EU. As Minister for European transition, does the Minister agree with me that it's vitally important that the coronavirus pandemic is not used as a further reason for delay in delivering on what the people chose four years ago? Because there are great opportunities once we are freed from the entangling net of the European legislation to make our industries of the future, in particular, much more nimble—the world of banking, finance, data protection, for example. Without endangering public protection in any way, we can protect ourselves by much less bureaucratic processes than European directives and regulations that now compel us to act. So, I wonder, as Minister for European transition, whether he'll be able to assure me, after four years of doing everything he possibly could to try to block or delay the referendum result being implemented, that he is now going to help the British Government to deliver by the end of the year and not seek to protract the process of leaving any further. 

Well, my own view is that the issue around COVID and the response to COVID is immeasurably more important in the lives of most people than the point that he has, with respect, just raised. I don't dismiss the point at all, because he raises an important point about the impact of Brexit into the future. My own view is that the question should be posed slightly differently, which is: given the immense challenges and the immense damage that COVID and corona is going to inflict on all parts of the UK, why would one voluntarily choose to overlay on top of that the economic damage caused by Brexit? That seems to me to be—. My own view is that would be irresponsible. 

But on a more pragmatic basis, I think there are two fundamental questions that even someone who takes his view, as distinct to mine, ought to be persuaded by, if I may put it like that. And the first is: all Governments in the UK rightly are focused on the task of dealing with and tackling the consequences of living with COVID; that is obviously the overriding priority of all Governments in the UK, as it should be. What that means necessarily, and incidentally, in Europe—. What that means is that the bandwidth and the capacity to pursue the negotiations over a very complex set of future relationships simply isn’t available to anybody in the way that it would need to be for those negotiations to lead to the best available outcome, whatever perspective you have of Brexit. So, it seems to us as a Government that the sensible thing in the interest of good governance is for there to be a pause in those negotiations and an extension until Governments have more capacity to be able to engage with those negotiations.

And the last point I'll make—and it’s really not on my own behalf, but on behalf of all those businesses that have furloughed their staff, or organisations across the UK who have furloughed their staff—I'm not sure how any Government says to people in that situation that it's time to start preparing for whatever Brexit brings. I, obviously, take a very different view from him of what Brexit brings, but plainly it requires significant preparation, whatever it is, and I'm not sure how we say to people in that situation that it's time for them to start preparing, because many of them will just hear that and not understand how they can get to grips with that at this point. So, that points to a very pragmatic, common-sense approach, which is to pause and delay and solve and address the challenge that lies most immediately ahead of us before we come back and conclude those negotiations.

May I thank the Minister for his statement and acknowledge the excellent work that is ongoing in many departments given this very significant challenge that we are facing and the suffering that COVID has brought to our communities?

Following on from that last question, we’ve heard this week that trade negotiations between the UK and the USA have commenced and, of course, a number of concerns have been aired over the past few months on the future of our health service in relation to any negotiation between the UK and the USA. Whilst recognising that the health service in Wales is different from the NHS in England, may I ask the Minister what input you will have in these negotiations to ensure that Wales’s voice in these negotiations between Britain and the USA, particularly in relation to our health service, is clearly heard?

Perhaps I should say that that is an issue for Eluned Morgan to address, but may I just say, from my own experience of working with the UK Government in the European context, that the negotiations and discussions, as you will know, haven’t enabled us to say that we have the influence that we would like to have on behalf of the people of Wales? I think that if the Minister were here, she would say that her experience of collaboration in the context of trade deals with other nations has been slightly different to that. But on the important point that he made on the impact on the NHS in Wales, we as a Government have been entirely clear on our standpoint and our standpoint will not change: we will not be willing to take any steps that open our health service up here in Wales to any commercial influence of the kind that he is describing.

Jenny Rathbone. Jenny Rathbone, you can ask your question.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Jeremy, for your statement. I admire your ambition to continue to have agile government going forward, and I, obviously, hope that we will continue to have the appetite to make bold decisions for doing things differently to better meet people's needs.

Just turning to the state of the economy, and the deliberations you've been having with these round-tables, clearly at the moment, we've got the vast majority of our companies on life support with Government-backed loans and 80 per cent wage subsidies. We clearly can't go back to doing things like we did before, so I'm very keen to understand what is our strategy for supporting companies going forward when so many organisations are going to be dependent on injections of capital to get back on their feet. And we clearly can't afford to be giving loans to organisations that then decide they want to move out of Wales and transfer their businesses elsewhere. That simply isn't going to be affordable. So, I wanted to understand, when we're looking at really important sectors like strategic manufacturing, food production and the technology that is going to deliver the cleaner, greener Wales as well as making it more productive, what thought you've given to instead of providing loans, taking equity stakes in businesses so that we, the taxpayer, can share in the success as well as the risks of these firms going forward in future years.

Thank you for that question. I think the challenge that Governments everywhere will have is the sort of paradigm shift that this crisis is bringing to bear in terms of some of the points that she's raised in her question about business resilience and so on, and what the role is of Government in supporting businesses in the future; it might need to look a little different from the perspective that she's described.

I think, obviously, this is one of those areas where Governments, certainly in the UK, haven't historically done very much of this in terms of investing themselves directly in companies. We haven't done a huge amount of that in Wales, but there are examples of that. The conference centre in Newport is an example where it's a sort of joint venture-type arrangement, so it has happened, and obviously—. Actually, this came up in one of the discussions about how one deals with companies that, with the best will in the world—they're well-run companies and good employers, but are going to be saddled with huge amounts of debt coming out of this crisis for no fault of their own, and how one deals with the resilience issues that that inevitably brings and the consequences of that. I think that sort of big thinking about the future is one of the dimensions that we absolutely need to grasp in this piece of work.

On a kind of more immediate basis, she will know that the economic resilience fund applications have been paused and I know that the economy Minister is looking through a number of options about what the next stage of that might look like. The economic contract remains a really important part of this mix. Obviously, in a very fast-moving world where companies are having to make applications quickly and those judgments don't operate in quite the same way—. But at its heart, you've got questions to do with fair work and the importance of decarbonisation, and I think she will recognise that the kinds of areas we have explained have been the focus of those round-tables are exactly in that space. So, those values and those priorities remain absolutely central.

Thank you. And to close, Joyce Watson.

Diolch, Llywydd. Yes, it's really great that we've got all these roundtables going on. In my opinion, it's fantastic that Gordon Brown, the architect of Sure Start, is involved in that. I'm absolutely delighted to be part of a party that has an ideological wish and drive to deliver social contracts and social partnerships—obviously an anathema to Mark Reckless.

But the questions that I have for you are very much focused on women's place in all of what we've seen. It's fairly obvious that women are the main deliverers of the social care. Most people will go out again tomorrow night and applaud that delivery, but what we must do is underpin that goodwill that currently does exist with a way of delivering care, wherever it's delivered, more equitably, and that means paying for it. So, we must start to have an honest conversation about how we're going to pay for care, going forward, and how we're going to sustain people with good wages and good terms and conditions within that workforce.

I'm going to keep on the same theme of being mindful of women, so I'm moving on now—

I'm sorry, Joyce, but there's no time to move on.

Just one question?

You'll have to keep it for another time.

Yes, okay, thank you.

Diolch, Joyce. The Minister to respond.

Thank you for raising this particular issue, Joyce. We know that COVID is having a greater impact on women economically than it is on men: 17 per cent of women working in sectors that have been shut down, compared to about 13 per cent of men. Almost two thirds of employees in the low-paying sectors are women. We've got—. Women tend to have fewer sources of wealth to fall back on when times are hard in the way that they are for many women now, and these are factors that we've understood for some time, but they've been very clearly highlighted, haven't they, by the challenge that we face. So, absolutely, one of the thrusts of the discussions that we had yesterday was about how we can address that in a post-COVID economy. The social care sector, obviously, is one that we know is under strain. The payment that the Welsh Government made last week to workers in the social care sector I think is a sort of down payment of the sort of arrangement that we want to put in place in the longer term to support workers in that sector better.

There is a real question for us at the heart of this of how we value care; the value we attach to that, and the economic value we attach to that, and I think that one of the challenges for all of us is to turn people's support for key workers, which I think many people have realised for the first time, probably, the centrality of that contribution to the well-functioning of our society, to capitalise on that, build on it, marry that with people's understanding of the different role for Government and the role of the economy in the future, and try and get a better settlement for exactly those people.

I thank the Counsel General. And that brings our first meeting as a Senedd to a close. Thank you, all.

The meeting ended at 18:02.