I don't accept the term 'pipe dream' and he wouldn't accept it, perhaps, if I were to describe his constitutional aims in that way. So, we must accept that we have different views on the way forward. I don't accept that this is the only way in which the union can work. The whole point of the paper that he describes is that we have an alternative vision of how the union could work better in the interest of Wales.

I accept, certainly, that the structures that we have and the relationships that we have in the way that they are structured at present do not work—they don't. The process of withdrawing from the European Union has highlighted that even more strongly. But the call that we have as a Government is to reform that in a very elementary way, and that paper still illustrates a path towards that. But, it does mean that we need a Westminster Government that is ready to be involved in that process, and ready to deal with the other devolved Governments in a way that reflects those principles.