Questions now from the party spokespeople—Dai Lloyd.

Thank you, Llywydd. In the media this week, in response to the proposed internal market Bill that emerged from the UK Government, you stated:

This will not be tolerated.

So, how will you ensure that this Bill, which, essentially, is an attempt by Boris Johnson to take powers away from this Parliament and back to Westminster—how will you ensure that this will not be forced upon Wales?

Dai Lloyd refers to the proposed Green Paper from the United Kingdom Government as regards the internal market across the UK. In principle, we see the sense in having an internal market to help business in Wales succeed in selling across the whole of the UK. But it's not acceptable that the proposal made is one that's created by one part of the United Kingdom and that that should be imposed upon the other Governments.

In other words, there is a better and alternative way of doing that, on the basis of the principles that I alluded to earlier, namely that Governments have parity of discussion as to what should be done in this situation and build on the common frameworks that have been discussed and developed to date. That is a better alternative way of dealing with the situation, and also takes out of the situation the threat to the devolution settlement that is tied into that we have to accept the goods in the market in Wales, even if they don't come up to the standards that Welsh Government, on behalf of the people of Wales, has set.

We would hope, if necessary, to receive support from the Senedd in our opposition to that, if primary legislation on this emanates from the UK Government.

Thank you for that response. Since the publication of the Welsh Government paper, 'Reforming our Union, Shared Governance in the UK', the UK Government has rejected calls from the Welsh Government, the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive to extend the Brexit transition period. Also, the UK Government continued with its withdrawal agreement, although the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments refused legislative consent for it. So, are your objectives, as a Welsh Government, set out in that paper, 'Reforming our Union', more or less likely to be implemented now, or is the equality of governance within the UK a pipe dream?

I don't accept the term 'pipe dream' and he wouldn't accept it, perhaps, if I were to describe his constitutional aims in that way. So, we must accept that we have different views on the way forward. I don't accept that this is the only way in which the union can work. The whole point of the paper that he describes is that we have an alternative vision of how the union could work better in the interest of Wales.

I accept, certainly, that the structures that we have and the relationships that we have in the way that they are structured at present do not work—they don't. The process of withdrawing from the European Union has highlighted that even more strongly. But the call that we have as a Government is to reform that in a very elementary way, and that paper still illustrates a path towards that. But, it does mean that we need a Westminster Government that is ready to be involved in that process, and ready to deal with the other devolved Governments in a way that reflects those principles.

Thank you for that, again. Given the substantial majority of the Conservatives in Westminster, it's clear to everyone that Westminster will not lead the way in reforming the union for the better. We are losing powers here, and you, as a Welsh Government, are being ignored time and time again. So, what is your plan? Continue being ignored, and Wales continuing to lose powers? Chlorinated chicken, anyone? If not independence for Wales, what?

[Inaudible.]—Westminster under Keir Starmer that is ready to reform the union on the principles that we as a party have held here in Wales for a long time.

Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Will the Minister provide an update on the work he's been doing in relation to his COVID recovery responsibilities?

Certainly. I refer the Member to the statement that the Minister for finance and I jointly published yesterday, which gives, I think, a sense of the direction of travel.

Yes, I saw the statement that was published yesterday—no doubt rushed out in advance of your appearance before the Senedd today. Because the reality is that you've made very few appearances in relation to this important role, which, of course, is going to become even more important as time goes on. So, to issue periodic statements that are so distant apart that they are, frankly, like a comet—Halley's comet, perhaps—is unacceptable in my view.

Now, we've heard references in this Chamber today—and I think you've referred to it, also—to the cautious approach that is being taken to reopening Wales by the Welsh Government. But, the reality is that you've thrown caution to the wind as far as our economy is concerned. And you've also thrown caution to the wind in terms of the potential long-term health impacts of your longer lockdown on our economy too. You weren't cautious, either, when it came to the testing of residents in care homes or the staff in care homes, and you have not been cautious in relation to the use of mandatory face coverings, either. So, can you tell us what the economic impact of the longer lockdown is here in Wales, and why the Welsh Government continues to drag its feet when we could be reopening more if there were a more cautious approach on things like face masks?

Well, I understand the narrative that the Conservative benches, clearly, are trying to develop today around this topic, but I would just reiterate the point that the First Minister made in his observations earlier, which is to say that the approach of the UK Government is not one that sets the health of the nation at odds with the health of the economy. The entire strategy of the Welsh Government in relation to this, advised by our medical advisers and scientific advisers, is to take that cautious approach, and I think that that is borne out by the consequences in terms of the suppression of the virus in Wales.

I think, if one speaks to most businesses, certainly, there's a recognition that that cautious, evidence-based, transparent approach has got us to the place we are today because of the readiness of people in Wales to respond to that in the way that they have, and I think that everyone understands that the damage of a second lockdown of the sort that we've been through would be very significant on the economy of Wales. And I think, therefore, the approach of seeking to avoid that, if we possibly can, seems to me to have a fairly wide base of support.

You say that you've had a more cautious approach for health reasons, but I've just cited at least two examples where there hasn't been a cautious approach, certainly on face coverings and when it came to the testing of care home residents and staff. So, it's not true to say that you've had a more cautious approach, certainly in respect of those two things.

And I ask you again: what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the longer term impact on people's health as a result of your longer lockdown? Because we all know that poorer nations tend to have poorer outcomes in terms of the health of their populations, and I fear that you're making a mess of the economic recovery that could be because of your longer lockdown.

Now, I accept, I fully accept, that you've got to strike the right balance between health concerns and economic concerns, but I'm afraid there hasn't been any balance so far, and certainly not when it comes to your expert panel here in Wales. The membership of your panel, of course, consists of Gordon Brown, the former Chancellor and Prime Minister responsible for putting the country into the worst possible position during the 2008 economic downturn, only hobbling on then to a recovery after almost bankrupting the country; a former adviser to Ed Miliband, who was the brainchild behind the 'Ed stone', or 'the tombstone' as it came to be known, who now leads a left-leaning think tank; and, of course, the leader of a hard-left socialist think tank that has advocated a 21-hour working week, scrapping the measurement of GDP in terms of economic growth, and in fact has said that economic growth isn't actually possible. So, we've got a former Prime Minister and Chancellor responsible for the biggest boom and bust that our country had ever seen, a former special adviser, and a socialist who doesn't even believe in economic growth. How on earth is that going to help this country bounce back in the way that my party wants to see it bounce back as a result of this pandemic?

Well, I refer Members to the lists in the Senedd Library of the participants in the round-tables and the expert advisory process, which, needless to say, perhaps aren't faithfully represented in the intervention from Darren Millar. He's also forgotten, I think, to mention the fact that one of the participants was a member of the council of economic advisers under Philip Hammond, and there are a number of businesspeople in Wales who would take a very different perspective in relation to many of these matters.

I think one of the things we've attempted to do, I think with success, is to secure a range of voices in those discussions so that as well as bringing fresh thinking, it also brings constructive challenge, of the sort I'd welcome from Darren Millar at some future point.

Question 3, John Griffiths.