The Minister for health, Vaughan Gething.

Motion NDM7368 Rebecca Evans

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2020 laid in the Table Office on 31 July 2020.

Motion NDM7369 Rebecca Evans

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2020 laid in the Table Office on 07 August 2020.

Motion NDM7370 Rebecca Evans

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 2020 laid in the Table Office on 14 August 2020.
 

Motions moved.

Thank you, Llywydd. I formally move the three sets of regulations before us today and ask Members to support them. As with the regulations that have preceded them, these regulations being debated today have been introduced under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984 through emergency procedures to support our approach to tackling coronavirus here in Wales. As the prevalence of coronavirus has reduced, we have continued to review the restrictions that it has been necessary to impose upon individuals, businesses and other organisations to manage this extraordinary public health crisis. The continual review of the regulations is in addition to the 21-day review cycle, which requires Welsh Ministers to review the need for restrictions and requirements at least every 21 days.

Over the last few months, Members will be aware that we have sought to gradually ease the range of restrictions that apply in Wales as the circumstances have allowed us to do so. The regulations before the Senedd today continue that process. All of the changes introduced by these regulations are once again based upon the most up-to-date scientific evidence and public health advice. On that basis, we consider restrictions that it is safe for us to remove or alter whilst guarding against any further resurgence in the spread of the virus here in Wales. Taken together, the three sets of regulations have removed many of the remaining legal restrictions on everyday life and the economy. However, in order to do that, at times, we have also had to take mitigating measures to keep the virus under control.

The amendment No. 3 regulations came into force on 3 August. They allowed outdoor gatherings of up to 30 people; pubs, bars, cafes and restaurants to reopen indoors; and bowling alleys, bingo halls and auction houses to reopen. The amendment No. 4 regulations, which came into force on 10 August, allowed for further relaxations of the coronavirus restrictions by permitting a range of other premises to reopen, including swimming pools, fitness studios, spas to the extent they weren't already open, leisure centre and indoor play areas. They also expanded the activities that could be undertaken in community centres.

In these extraordinary times, freedoms come with responsibilities. These regulations conferred new powers on local authorities to ensure that premises follow the law and take all reasonable measures to mitigate the spread of coronavirus. Local authority enforcement officers have been given powers to serve improvement notices, or in the last instance to require premises to close. I understand that four improvement notices have been served to date across Wales. Of course, most businesses are keen to take all the steps needed, so such action should not be necessary in the large majority of cases. Our aim has been to support the vast majority of responsible businesses and employers by ensuring that there is a level playing field for all. 

I should recognise one oversight made in those regulations where we purported to give magistrates' courts the power to impose a custodial sentence for breach of the requirements. As was correctly noted by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, such a power cannot be granted under these powers. We therefore took prompt and immediate steps to make the correction required in the final set of regulations before us today, which came into force on 17 August. I understand that between 10 August and this correction being made, no courts issued a custodial sentence and I'm grateful to the committee for raising this issue.

Finally, the amendment No. 5 regulations that came into force on 17 August make it mandatory in high-risk settings for the contact details of visitors to premises to be collected. That means that if an outbreak or clusters can be traced back to a particular pub, cafe or other setting, as has already happened in Wales and elsewhere in the UK, we will then have a record of who was there at the time, a means of getting in touch with them quickly, to ensure that they and their households self-isolate, and an opportunity to reinforce the need to get tested as required. This is a sensible precaution to take at this point in the light of the chief medical officer's advice that the autumn and winter months are likely to bring new and additional challenges for the control of coronavirus here in Wales.

Llywydd, the restrictions put in place to protect people's health and control the spread of coronavirus have been unprecedented. The law is clear, however, that those restrictions can only be kept in place for as long as they are necessary and proportionate. Our road map, published on 15 May, promised a cautious, coherent approach to the easement of the restrictions through gradual regulatory changes over time. The regulations on which Members are voting today, I believe, helped make good that promise and I urge the Senedd to support them.

I call on Dai Lloyd to speak on behalf of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. Dai Lloyd.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and I speak as temporary Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, as you have just noted.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2020 are the principal regulations on coronavirus in Wales. The Senedd approved these regulations on 5 August this year, together with two sets of amending regulations. On 24 August, we reported on three further sets of amending regulations which are the subject of today's debate. The No. 3 amending regulations permitted restaurants, cafes, bars and public houses to open indoors, and bingo halls, bowling alleys and auction houses to open also. However, measures must be taken to minimise the risk of exposure to coronavirus. The No. 3 amending regulations also relaxed the restrictions on gatherings, so that any outdoor gathering of no more than 30 people is permitted, whether it involves organised outdoor activities or not. Our report on the No. 3 amending regulations drew attention to the absence of a public consultation and a regulatory impact assessment on the regulations, as a consequence of the current circumstances clearly.

The No. 4 amending regulations permitted community centres, swimming pools, fitness studios, gyms, spas, leisure centres and indoor play areas to open. But, again, measures must be taken to minimise the risk of exposure to coronavirus on the premises. They also confer new powers on local authority enforcement officers to ensure that measures are taken to minimise the risk of exposure to coronavirus at workplaces and other premises that are open.

We raised technical and merits points in relation to the No. 4 amending regulations. First, as regards the technical points, we highlighted the inclusion of a potential six months' imprisonment in respect of new offences relating to premises closure notices, and I've heard the Minister's comments on this issue. However, this would be irregular, of course, because the Act under which the regulations are made, namely the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, does not permit such offences to be punishable by imprisonment. Whilst we note that the Welsh Government has already addressed this matter in the No. 5 amending regulations by making it clear that such offences are punishable only by a fine, the provision relating to imprisonment was in force between 10 August 2020 and 17 August 2020. We are therefore writing to the First Minister seeking confirmation that the provision had no practical impact during that time. Again, I have heard the Minister's comments today.

Our report also sought clarification on the application of regulation 18(7) that relates to the information that may be requested by an enforcement officer and how it can be used in proceedings. As regards the merits points, our report seeks clarity on the Welsh Government's approach to enforcement, and also on how the Government is working with enforcement officers in local authorities, given that the restrictions that apply to individuals and businesses in Wales have now been made and amended 17 times. This is an important point because the frequency of changes to reflect the changing nature of the pandemic makes it difficult for individuals and businesses to keep up with what they are required to do. This, in turn, raises questions as to how the restrictions have been enforced.

We are also seeking information about the resources required to carry out these enforcement activities. In our view, it would have been helpful if information about the enforcement system could have been included in the explanatory memorandum.

Whilst no points were raised by us in our report on the No. 5 amending regulations, we will be writing to the First Minister because we have since become aware of the Welsh Government's guidance on the No. 5 regulations. In particular, the guidance says that it is a legal obligation on the hospitality sector, cinemas, gyms, et cetera, to collect and retain customer information. However, the regulations say that all businesses, open premises, workplaces, et cetera, including the hospitality sector, cinemas and gyms, must take reasonable measures to deal with the virus. While it may be reasonable in a large majority of cases for the hospitality sector and gyms, et cetera, to collect and retain information, we do not believe that this amounts to a blanket legal obligation. Each case should be decided on its facts, and, as we know, the law cannot be declared in guidance. The law is what is set out in the regulations themselves.

I will turn now to the final point on the No. 5 regulations. The guidance seems to say that customer information may be collected and retained for the purposes of reducing the risk of any person who

'has been on the premises'— and I quote there—spreading the virus. But, the regulations say that customer information may be collected for different purposes of minimising the risk of exposure 'at the premises'. And, again, I quote.

I would be grateful, therefore, if the Government could clarify whether there is any inconsistency between the guidance and the regulations on this particular point. Thank you very much.

Minister, thank you for your update on the regulations and we, as Welsh Conservatives, will be supporting the regulations as tabled by the Government this afternoon. I'd just like to seek two points of clarity from you if possible, please. 

In your update you highlighted the four improvement notices that have been served under the regulations. Are you in a position to tell us what the improvement notices were required to be served on? Were they hospitality venues, were they workplaces, and were there specific geographical locations where there was a greater inability to apply the law? So, was this something that was affecting north Wales businesses or hospitality or was it south Wales, or was it just a general issue across Wales?

And, secondly, the First Minister did touch on it in his statement today, and as we're looking at the regulations, I'm surprised that you haven't touched on face coverings in educational settings here today. We are being told that there's going to be an announcement later today, but this is a formal sitting of the Welsh Parliament, I would have thought that, as Members, we would have been extended the courtesy of hearing exactly what the Welsh Government's thinking on this was, and this would be an ideal opportunity for you to do that. As the First Minister alluded to the fact that it might well be in a localised setting that these requirements would be required in educational schools, universities and further education colleges for face masks to be worn, can you enlighten us here today as to your thinking around these measures, and when might we hear more definitive news from the Welsh Government as to how this might be progressed?

Whilst I welcome the relaxation of restrictions, my objection to these regulations is that they don't go far enough. The First Minister in his statement earlier referred to the need to conduct a balancing act in making decisions about relaxations—the same is true about imposing them in the first place. Whilst the costs of these restrictions seem pretty easy to quantify, we know that there's been a fall of one fifth in our national income in the last quarter, and we know also the cost to the public in other ways through operations that are cancelled in hospitals, or delayed, and the number of deaths for other conditions that have taken place because of the priority given to the treatment of coronavirus patients. But, the benefits, on the other hand, of the restrictions are very much more difficult to quantify.

We know from international comparisons that there isn't that much difference, actually, between countries that have imposed draconian lockdowns and those that have not. The First Minister earlier on referred to the case of Sweden, which he said he'd looked at, and yet, if you look at the experience of Sweden, the costs of their reaction to coronavirus are very much lower than the costs that we've assumed. And Sweden has not suffered in the way that we have in relation to the disease either. At the moment in Sweden, there are only 21 people—21 people—who are in a serious or critical condition through coronavirus. The figure for the UK is 72. A very small number of people are actually suffering significant consequences from contracting the disease.

We know that the principal characteristic of COVID is that most people don't suffer any ill effects whatsoever; they're asymptomatic or they have only a very mild form of the virus. The seven-day moving average for deaths in the United Kingdom at the moment is between 14 and 10. There are many, many other causes of death that exceed those figures, and yet we don't impose a draconian lockdown in order to counteract them. The figure for Sweden is zero at the moment—zero deaths.

So, I wonder whether the Minister might not reconsider the Welsh Government's approach to these regulations and be more bold than they have been. Whilst a relaxation, as I say, is welcome, we need a faster relaxation, a more widespread relaxation, because the benefits in relation to the costs greatly outweigh whatever damage might be done.

I call on the Minister to reply to the debate—Vaughan Gething.

I can't hear the Minister at this point. Can we have—? Yes, I think it's okay now. Carry on.

Thank you, Llywydd, and I thank Members for their contributions to the debate, which I'll try to deal with in turn.

I thank Dai Lloyd for his contribution on behalf of the committee. I noted the correction required in my opening comments and confirm there was no practical impact for the issue that needed correction. I don't believe there is inconsistency between the guidance and the regulations, but I'll be happy to consider it further given the extra detail that the Member has provided.

On Andrew R.T. Davies's comments, one of the four issues that are largely in the public domain about the improvement notices served is the Wetherspoon in Wrexham where there's been a cluster around that particular public house. It's largely about a lack of social distancing within the staff areas, and that's the purpose of the improvement notice served by Wrexham council. It's important to recognise that this is about both how businesses look after their customers, but also their staff as well. And that wasn't because it was impossible to undertake social distancing for members of staff, it was actually that the requirements weren't themselves followed. And to be fair, the employer has recognised there is a need to revisit the guidance and the training that staff have to make sure there's proper adherence in the future. 

On the point made about the educational settings, I heard him make the same point to the First Minister as well, and of course we are debating the regulations that have already been passed as opposed to the as-yet-unfinished business of resolving and revising any advice we give around face coverings and education. As I say, they're not part of the regulations, and as I indicated yesterday, I expect us to make a statement from the Welsh Government today. I would have preferred to have been in a position to make that now, but it's important that we get it right when we make it, and when we do it'll come in a formal statement to Members and we'll obviously answer questions in public about it. 

When it comes to Neil Hamilton's points, I simply don't agree with his consistent opposition to any Welsh Government measures that we have taken on the basis that we are keeping Wales safe. I simply don't agree with his plea to take away all control measures and that the benefits outweigh the damage. I indicated in the press conference on Tuesday that at least 2,557 people in Wales had lost their lives as a result of coronavirus. That is the sort of damage that we are talking about, and without any control measures, I believe many more families would have suffered loss, many more people would have long-term damage to their health. This is a new threat that causes significant mortality within our population. I do not believe that it would be conscionable at all for the Welsh Government to refuse to act to keep our citizens safe, and I'm glad for the way that most parties within the Senedd have recognised the need for this Government to take action during the course of the pandemic.

So, all of the regulations that were debated today reflect careful consideration about how best to balance freedoms with managing the continuing threat of the virus. We've taken into account the views from a range of partners, businesses, local authorities and, indeed, the shadow social partnership council and trade unions in other discussions.

We continue to try to prepare ourselves for the autumn and the winter ahead and to talk, where possible, with colleagues in other administrations. And in that, in some of the implementation of our enforcement framework, others, including the Scottish Government, are now looking to learn from what we are doing here in Wales. So, I make no apology for the continuing caution of the Welsh Government, in particular about allowing people to mix freely in uncontrolled indoor environments that cannot be regulated. No doubt all of us are impatient to visit friends and family in their homes, and by extending the potential size of an extended household, I hope we'll help more people to do so safely. But, as ever, it's one step at a time. We will continue to be vigilant in observing the evidence and seeking out opportunities for further liberalisation as quickly as possible, as safely as possible. But, in the meantime, I commend the regulations to the Senedd.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 2. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection and therefore I will defer that item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

The next item: a proposal to agree the motion under item 3. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will defer voting again until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

And then, finally, a proposal to agree the motion under item 4. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection and therefore I will defer that item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

In accordance with Standing Order 34.14D, there will be a break of five minutes before voting time takes place. The IT support team will be on hand to help with any issues during this time, therefore I will suspend the session for five minutes.

Plenary was suspended at 15:07.

The Senedd reconvened at 15:16, with the Llywydd in the Chair.