1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:47 pm on 22 September 2020.
Questions now from the party leaders. Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.
Diolch, Llywydd. Could the First Minister present to the Senedd the Government's proposals in terms of the changes to coronavirus restrictions, as the Prime Minister has just done as regards England in the last hour, and the First Minister of Scotland is shortly to do in the Scottish Parliament? And in doing so, could he say whether he agrees with what the opposition parties in Westminster have been saying—that while the UK health Minister has emphasised a lack of public adherence to the rules in getting us to this point, it's also true that there have been some policy mistakes, which have contributed to getting to this position? Which begs two questions, really: what has gone wrong that needs to be put right? What are the lessons that we've learned? And what's the Government's vision and plan in terms of the next six months? Is it a succession of releasing restrictions and then reimposing them, and doing it again? If so, we should be honest about that. If it isn't, then how can we use this phase to build up the resilience so that we don't have a third and fourth period of lockdown?
Llywydd, I thank Adam Price for that. I caught some of what the Prime Minister said in the House of Commons but not quite all of it. I think it's important to remind colleagues that we start in a very different place in Wales. Our approach to unlocking coronavirus restrictions has been at a different pace and in a different way to that across our border. Many of the things that the Prime Minister is talking about doing today we have already done in Wales. So, in the part of his statement that I heard, he was talking about encouraging people again to work from home. Well, we have never, ever in Wales suggested anything else than that. We have never gone down the line of saying that people should get back on the bus and get back into work. Our advice has always been that, if you can work successfully from home, that is what you should do. We will reinforce that message today, but the message in Wales has never changed.
I heard the Prime Minister say that matters that are in guidelines in England are going to be put in regulations. Well, we've always made greater use of regulations here. Very early on, we put the 2m distance in the workplace into our regulations. It's not been in guidance in Wales; it's been a legal obligation on employers, and that's made a difference. When we published guidance to the hospitality industry, then our regulations require the person in charge of such a setting to have due regard for that guidance. So, we've already done that differently. The Prime Minister is going to tighten the rule of six, well, our rule of six has been tighter all along. You can only meet somebody from your extended household, not six people from any old household who could meet indoors. And I heard him say that he was going to halt pilots in the arts and sports world. Well, reluctantly, we halted our pilots 10 days ago. We had three successful pilots and we were hoping that, in this three weeks, we could have done more. We decided 10 days ago that things were too difficult for us to be able to do that. So, we start in a different place. There are things that we will be considering during the day. We will be talking with our colleagues in local government, in the health service, in public health and in the police about the additional measures that we might be able to take, but we will do it, as ever, with our partners. We will plan and then we will make an announcement.
Across Wales, Llywydd, I think the majority of people continue to very carefully and very scrupulously observe the rules. They want to do the right thing and they want to know what the right thing is to do. There is a small minority of people who, somehow, took the message for the summer, when we were reducing restrictions, that coronavirus was over. Those are the people we have to convince that they need to go back to observing all the things that they were doing earlier in the summer, and that will mean that the effort across Wales will be strengthened again. That will be my message to people in Wales today. I agree with what Adam Price said: this does not have to be the pattern for the future, but if it's not to be, that depends crucially not simply on what Government does but on what every citizen in their own life does in order to make that collective effort that I think has been characteristic of the response in Wales.
Can I ask the First Minister that, when the Government has made a decision in terms of any changes that it's going to introduce, it does bring a statement to this Senedd later this afternoon?
We've always supported as decentralised as possible an approach. It may be, of course, that you can reach a point where that is no longer possible and you need to introduce nationwide changes, but could I ask the First Minister to look at the principle of localisation because of the range of situations we see across Wales, and possibly look at reversing the logic, if you like—having an overarching national policy as a default, but then having COVID-free areas and areas of low community transmission that would be exempt from those nationwide changes? This would serve two purposes: it would incentivise continued adherence to the rules in areas of low transmission and increase adherence to the rules in areas of higher transmission. What consideration have you also given to the idea of a UK-wide ban on international travel during this critical period, a ban on non-essential travel from lockdown areas in the rest of the UK into Wales, and the temporary closure of pubs indoors, supported vitally, of course, by sector-specific financial support?
Well, Llywydd, I think Adam Price puts his finger on one of the central dilemmas that we face in Wales, because while we have a very difficult situation in a number of local authorities in the south-east Wales corner, today in other parts of Wales, in 10 local authorities in Wales today, the rate of coronavirus was still falling. I've so far not been convinced that we should treat Ceredigion as though it were Caerphilly, because the prevalence of coronavirus in Ceredigion is still at a very low ebb indeed, and it would not be proportionate to place the same level of restrictions on citizens there as we have had to ask people in Caerphilly to observe. So, a blended approach in which we have some important national messages—the work from home message is a national message, the meeting six people indoors from your extended household is a national rule here in Wales. I will want to say something later today about trying to encourage people in Wales only to make those journeys that are really necessary. In Caerphilly and the other local authorities where local lockdown measures are concerned, you can't leave the county borough without a good reason for doing so, but beyond that I think every one of us should be asking ourselves, 'Is that journey really essential?', because the fewer people you meet and the fewer journeys you make, the less danger you are posing to yourself and others. So, I think that that, as a message to people everywhere about minimising travel and staying close to home as much as you are able to, is another brick in a national wall that we can build. After that, I'm still of the same mind as Adam Price suggested that local measures for local circumstances at this point in the virus remain the right response in Wales.
Yes, and that will be the subject of a full statement later this afternoon, First Minister—
Llywydd, I don't want to promise that a statement can be made later this afternoon. The health Minister will be making a statement. If the discussions with the authorities that we need to reach a conclusion on matters are not concluded today, we will take the earliest chance we can to make a statement.
Just very briefly on resilience and testing—I know we've talked about this before—in terms of the lighthouse labs, obviously building up our own capacity is absolutely critical. There's an interesting experiment in the north-east of England, where they've taken a lighthouse lab effectively into public ownership, I suppose you might call it, and also they're targeting it at local authorities and universities, and local private sector working together. Interesting model; could that be applied in Newport and then connected with our own indigenous system? Ventilators was a key theme in the early phase of the coronavirus; ventilation is becoming mission critical as well. Are we going to be providing help for workplaces and public buildings to get better ventilation during this critical phase?
Llywydd, we had a presentation at COBRA this morning from Dido Harding, the person who is in charge of the testing regime in England. I'm afraid it is going to be a number of weeks, from what I heard, before the lighthouse lab system is back up to the level of performance that we saw only a few weeks ago. In the meantime, there are some local experiments of the sort that Adam Price referred to being undertaken, and we will certainly look to see whether any of that flexibility could be applied in Wales. And, yes, ventilation will be an increasingly important theme as we go into the winter months, where people will be indoors more and where those non-medical interventions that can help to prevent the spread of the disease will be even more important, and the Welsh Government will certainly be emphasising that in the guidance we continue to provide to public authorities and to private businesses.
On behalf of the Welsh Conservatives group, Suzy Davies.
Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, on the weekend you said that you needed to earn the trust of voters again ahead of the election. Why do you think you've lost voters' trust?
Voters' trust has clearly not been lost in Wales. If the Member troubled to look at any of the surveys, they are showing that levels of trust in the Welsh Government during this pandemic are at extraordinarily high levels—75 per cent and above in the Welsh Government; 45 per cent in the Government that her party runs in Westminster. The point I made, Llywydd, is this: any party in Government has to earn and re-earn trust at any election. For five elections in a row, the Labour Party has earned the trust of people in Wales, and we take nothing of that for granted. We will work as hard as we can to go on earning that trust. I imagine any party that seeks the votes of Welsh electors tries to make sure that they are trusted by them. There's nothing unusual in what I said, and I imagine it refers to much of her party as to any other.
It's a shame to have such a defensive response to that one; it might have given you the opportunity perhaps in the Chamber today to say some of the things that you claim as achievements. Certainly, I would have appreciated an answer that would have included, perhaps, I don't know, the Labour Member for Bridgend remembering to take his mask to a shop, in accordance with Welsh Government's own rules. But I think there are some more serious issues that you could have addressed in your answer today, Minister, because last week you let it be known that there was an 11-day gap between you finding out about a major leak of 18,000 pieces of personal information and the period when your health Minister knew about them. It's the third time there have been problems with personal data on your watch during this pandemic that we know of. Do you see—or foresee, I should say—a difficulty in keeping this pandemic under control if people don't trust you with their personal data?
Well, Llywydd, people do trust the system we have in Wales with their personal data. It's why the system we have in Wales is so much more successful than the system across our border. The data breach was regrettable. It was dealt with by the body that is responsible for it, which is the data controller in that instance. I've asked today to be told that a very small number of people who may have been affected have actually contacted Public Health Wales with any concerns. Those concerns will be dealt with. I don't think the matter is of such significance that it needs rehearsing in this forum two weeks in a row, and I think there are bigger issues that the Conservative Party might have wanted to discuss, but probably are afraid to do so.
Well, First Minister, that didn't sound to me like an explanation of what that 11-day gap was all about, and there's no point saying that is all down to Public Health Wales, when we've had data issues three times in a row now. Once, obviously, that would be misfortune. Twice would be carelessness. But a third time suggests to me we've got a Welsh Government here that's not that keen on taking responsibility for something that has really shocked a lot of people here. We are relying on track and trace to be the answer to keeping this pandemic under control and to avoid the kind of national lockdowns that Adam Price was, hopefully, trying to avoid as well when he spoke earlier on.
On the issue of trust, though, there is something pretty serious, I think, we need to discuss here today, as you've invited me to do that. And yesterday, in an interview on ITV Wales's Sharp End, the health Minister said that he would not rule out making it compulsory for people to have a COVID-19 vaccine, if and when one becomes available. Now, that's compulsory vaccines, First Minister. Did you know that he was going to say this, or was that another piece of information that the health Minister's kept from you? And what is there in such a statement? It's a completely Orwellian statement, a real attack on personal freedoms, which makes you think that anyone should dare trust a future Labour Government.
Well, Llywydd, on the matter of trust that the Member seems so exercised about this afternoon, of the 440 positive cases that were eligible for follow up in the test, trace, protect system in the most recent period, 96 per cent were reached, and they provided details of their recent contacts. That says to me that our system is very well trusted and very well regarded, and 89 per cent of all those contacts were also successfully contacted and were able to have their cases resolved. We have very high levels of trust in the Welsh system, and anything that she says to the contrary is simply not borne out by the facts.
The health Minister was asked a hypothetical question: would he rule something out? He simply said that he wouldn't. It went no further than that. There's no implication in what he said that he had made a decision of any sort. And in this context, in the context of coronavirus, when so much is unknown, and where the stakes are so high, to have ruled out something at this stage I think would not have been a responsible thing to have done, and I think he was absolutely right in the answer that he gave.
Leader of the Brexit group, Mark Reckless.
First Minister, I'm astonished by that answer in respect to your health Minister having said yesterday that you had the power to mandate vaccination, suggesting that people in Wales might be forcibly injected with a COVID vaccine. Is that what devolution has come to? Surely, such a programme of forced injections would break international law, or is that only a concern when you want to impede Brexit? Wouldn't it also break domestic law, which states at section 45E of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, as amended by the Coronavirus Act 2020, that regulations
'may not include provision requiring a person to undergo medical treatment.
'"Medical treatment" includes vaccination'.
First Minister, as with Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings, you exonerated your health Minister from breaching guidance when he had his family picnic in Cardiff Bay. Have you similarly exonerated him now for publishing the address and date of birth of everyone who tested positive for COVID in Wales because it wasn't significant, even though the rules require disclosure of such a data breach to the Information Commissioner within 72 hours? Will he now stay in place despite saying your Government could mandate vaccination in breach of UK and international law?
Llywydd, there is no such programme; there never has been such a programme; there's no proposal to have such a programme. It's just a got-up job. He knows it is, but he wants to appeal to a certain sort of person in the population and so he makes up such charges on the floor of the National Assembly. Let me tell him again, in case he wants to ask me again: there is no such programme; there never has been such a programme; there is no proposal for a programme. And people who want to pretend that there is are doing it entirely for their own political advantage and nothing else.
First Minister, I could easily say the same to you in respect of what you've said about the internal market Bill and what you say would be a breach of the law and international law from the Prime Minister. Your health Minister said yesterday that he should keep open the option of forcibly vaccinating people with a COVID vaccine in Wales. You said just now that he was right to keep that option open, despite the fact that it is against the law.
Could you clarify the position on shielding? You previously told old and vulnerable people to maintain shielding through to 16 August, even though, by then, virus prevalence had been low for some weeks. Will it not be now more difficult for them to shield again, having only so recently come out of such a long period of confinement? Would not older and vulnerable people be at less risk from COVID now, as in Sweden, if more younger people had already been through it rather than having postponed infections through lockdown?
Llywydd, I see the question swerved to something completely different at the end of it. No international law has been broken. No law of any sort has been broken, because there is no proposal of any sort that would lead to that eventuality. When I criticise the UK Government for its deliberate intention to breach international law, I'm not just doing that by myself. I commend the Member to read Theresa May's speech in the House of Commons yesterday, a speech in which she said that the UK Government are putting the integrity of the United Kingdom at risk—a speech in which she said that this is a Conservative Government willing to go back on its word, to break an international agreement signed in good faith and to break international law. That's not me—that's the previous Conservative Prime Minister of this country, supported by the two previous Conservative Prime Ministers in their turn. This is not some idiosyncratic view of the Welsh Government; it's a view widely shared in the party that has proposed it.
As to the shielding population, I note again what he says about Sweden. In Sweden, 10 times more people have died than in Norway, its immediate neighbour. Imagine—imagine the situation here: imagine what the Member would be saying to me if Wales had pursued a policy that led to 10 times the number of citizens in Wales dying compared to the number across our border. Would he be standing up here advocating it then? Of course he wouldn't be.