5. Will the First Minister make a statement on cladding fire safety in Wales in light of revelations that a fire safety certificate was fraudulently signed for blocks of flats in Cardiff and beyond? OQ55706

Llywydd, fraud is a matter for the police and trading standards departments of local authorities. Reports of fraud in fire safety matters are currently being investigated by them.

Okay. Nice sidestep there. Thousands of people in Wales are now living in unsafe flats that are worth nothing. They can't sell them and they live there knowing that, if there is a fire then we'll be looking at a Welsh Grenfell. They're being absolutely rinsed at every opportunity: insurance is through the roof, the service charges are rising, and some are even having to pay for fire safety inspectors to be onsite at all times. This is a situation that really needs to be resolved, but when the residents of Victoria Wharf wrote to you about their block, they did not even receive a response from you.

In Glasgow, Glasgow Harbour, the developer Taylor Wimpey is paying the £30 million needed to replace the dangerous cladding there, but at Victoria Wharf, the residents are expected to pay the £30 million themselves, and there's one veteran I spoke to, David Murphy, who is now worried about being made homeless because of these costs. So, why is it that in Scotland the developer pays to fix the problem, but in Wales residents are expected to pay themselves? Taylor Wimpey actually advises your Government on building regulations, so could you not advise them to cough up the money like they have in Scotland, or is it actually the conflict of interest that is driving Government inaction in this area?

Llywydd, the Member's instinctive reach for a conspiracy explanation is on evidence again today. If residents have written to me, they will have had a response. Builders and owners are responsible for the buildings that they have constructed and which they own, and they should pay. They should pay to make good the deficit in those buildings. It is neither right nor fair, nor moral that the leaseholders should be left carrying the can. I can't be clearer on that. Those companies should do the right thing by those people who have been affected by their failures. That is the position of the Welsh Government; I repeat it again today. And whether it's fraud, as I said in my original answer, Llywydd, it is not for a moment to sidestep something to be clear that the authorities who have the responsibility to investigate fraud are doing so. In this case, Gwent Police and the Caerphilly trading standards department are carrying out an active investigation into the matters that this question began with, and they must be allowed to complete that investigation.

First Minister, I think what you say about the need for the private sector to accept responsibility is important, but there's been real public failure here. Public regulation has not been fit for purpose; it was not fit for purpose in Governments you've said served here in Wales when it was being developed, and it's also been a failure in England, under Labour and Conservative Governments—I do not avoid recognising the responsibility my party has here. Leaseholders have to be served now by the public sector coming and at least giving some guarantee like a fire safety fund, and then pursuing those private interests that have been grossly deficient, and we need a proper regulatory system. I agree with you on one thing—this bill shouldn't be left at the doorstep of the leaseholders. 

Llywydd, I'd agree with a number of the points that the Member has made, and if my party is returned to Government after next May's elections, then we will bring forward legislation to deal with regulatory matters and gaps that have emerged in this sector. We are looking within the Welsh Government at the possibility of a building safety fund to support leaseholders while not creating the moral hazard of paying the bills of failed building firms and landlords. To do that would simply be to remove the responsibility from them and to encourage irresponsible behaviour in the future. But we are looking at ways in which leaseholders themselves could be supported, and I know that my colleague, the Minister with responsibility for this, has a meeting on Thursday of this week to continue to find a way in which we can meet their needs, while not creating, as I say, the moral hazard of bailing out people with public money from the private responsibilities that they ought to discharge.