So, we will now move, then, to item 5, which is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport on tackling pavement parking. Lee Waters. 

Thank you. For parents with pushchairs or people in wheelchairs, pavement parking can be not just a nuisance, but a danger. I have accompanied a blind person on a journey around their housing estate and when faced with a car taking up most of the pavement, their guide dog did as it was trained to do—it led them onto the road, rather than try and squeeze through the small gap. This is an everyday occurrence for many vulnerable people. When faced with cars parked on the space meant for them, they are forced onto the road. And it's no surprise that some report that the fear of facing this danger causes them to stay indoors—the anti-social behaviour of a few causing harm for the many.

We want more people to walk for short journeys and yet we tolerate an environment that is often not pedestrian friendly—too many routes are cluttered or blocked. A recent survey found that 83 per cent of people in Wales view it as a common, large or very large problem. The current law on parking on pavements is not as clear or as helpful as it could be. There is no specific offence of parking on pavements. The police can enforce the existing criminal law of causing unnecessary obstruction of any part of the highway, but this offence is rarely enforced.

I'm glad that the Government in England have launched a consultation on what they might do to strengthen the law. The Welsh Government are further ahead, though. Last summer I convened an expert taskforce to come up with practical recommendations for tackling the problem. I was very pleased that Phil Jones took on the task of chairing the group, in parallel with the panel he chaired on 20 mph speed limits. I am very grateful to him and his panelists for all the work that they have done. Taken together, these two initiatives have real potential to save lives and to rebalance the environment in favour of pedestrians to create communities that put people before cars.

My brief to the group was clear: find a way forward that will work in practice. I don't want to create even more problems for local authorities or the police. I want something that's going to help on the ground. The expert group included the police, the fire service, the Welsh Local Government Association, the Federation of Small Businesses, the Road Haulage Association, the British Parking Association and the Freight Transport Association, alongside campaigning groups like Disability Wales, Guide Dogs, Living Streets and Sustrans.

The report, which we are publishing today, has been tested by these key groups. The Welsh pavement parking taskforce makes 10 recommendations, and the Welsh Government accepts all of them. The taskforce does not favour an outright ban on pavement parking. They looked at the experience in Scotland where a prohibition has been created in primary legislation and concluded that that is an overly complex process and could take up to five years to introduce. A quicker and better way of tackling pavement parking is to give extra powers to local authorities to tackle the problem. The taskforce report recommends that Welsh Ministers should make subordinate legislation to add 'parking on a footway' to the list of parking contraventions in the Traffic Management Act 2004. This will enable councils to carry out civil enforcement of pavement parking.

We recognise that in some streets there are too many cars for the space available. We'll be setting out in our new Wales transport strategy how we want to encourage modal shift to make it easier for people to rely less on cars for everyday journeys. But in the meantime, we don't want to penalise people who have no alternative. By giving local authorities civil enforcement powers they can make judgments of where to clamp down. They can target hotspots like schools and respond to local circumstances. We intend for these new powers of 'civil enforcement of unnecessary obstruction' to commence by July 2022.

We will now set up an implementation group with local government representatives and stakeholders to develop enforcement guidance to help ensure a consistent approach is taken across Wales. This work will sit alongside the work we are doing to introduce a 20 mph default speed limit in residential areas from April 2023. And as I previously highlighted to the Senedd in July, this is as much about changing hearts and minds as it is about hard enforcement, and we will be developing a communications campaign rooted in values to make the case for change.

Over time, Dirprwy Lywydd, this will become the norm. Just as with smoking in restaurants, organ donation, and recycling our waste, I'm convinced this will quickly become seen as a commonsense measure. And I appreciate the cross-party support that there is for taking this forward. Diolch.

I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for his statement this afternoon, and also add my own thanks to Phil Jones and the task and finish group for their work also. I should say that the issue of pavement parking is an issue that the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee has previously looked at, and we've particularly looked at it as part of our inquiry into active travel.

Pavement parking clearly has negative consequences on many pedestrians, including older people, disabled people and children, so I do welcome the task and finish group's recommendations, and I also welcome the Welsh Government's response. I don't think that we're in a great deal of disagreement this afternoon on this issue. I should say that I'm sure other Members have had constituency issues raised with them, and I agree with the Deputy Minister, when I looked into this myself as a constituency Member, that there is no clear guidance in law on this particular area.

I suspect you will agree with me, Minister, that the challenge that we have is that, in many areas, pavement parking is considered essential, not only because people living in those areas have nowhere else to park, but because emergency vehicles and recycling vehicles et cetera would not be able to get through on certain streets if people did not park on the pavement. So, any legislation, whether primary or secondary, would, of course, generate considerable anxiety amongst some communities where it was the only way for residents to park near their home. So, in that vein, how would the Welsh Government give due consideration to this during any national public awareness campaign on the issue in an effort to increase public understanding and gain public feedback? And how much funding will your department dedicate towards the public education campaign?

In implementing this policy, it seems that every local authority, if I've understood this right, would have to do an audit of the many hundreds of roads in their respective areas. And it would then have to make transport regulation orders for any exemption that needs to be made. So, it would be, I think, irresponsible not to consider the pressure on local authorities of having to exempt hundreds of streets in many cases. So, I wonder what discussions you've had with your colleague the Deputy Minister for local government and with local authority leaders to gain their views on this, what I think is a very likely a difficult task.

Urban areas such as Cardiff and Swansea are clearly very different in terms of population distribution to that of rural authorities such as Powys or Ceredigion, and there could be considerable unintended consequences of a blanket ban, if brought in, so I think we've got to be careful that, in alleviating a problem, which we all agree that there is, we don't create another problem in another area. So, I wonder what the risk of any ban would cause in terms of unintended consequences. I'm sure, Minister, that you and your officials have considered that, so it would be useful to have your thinking on that. And if you could also—. You could easily envisage a circumstance whereby some local authorities might need to exempt hundreds of roads from a ban because of the way the roads are laid out. Each road could cost at least £1,000 to exempt, and the cost of preparing a pavement parking ban could fall disproportionately on authorities that have denser populations of potentially poorer communities, because of the nature of streets and the larger stocks of terraced houses. I would be grateful if you could outline what considerations the Welsh Government has given to this.

Finally, it is important that enforcement sits with the body most able to enforce it, and the evidence points to local authorities being the most appropriate body. However, given that local authority budgets and policing budgets are stretched, I would be grateful if you could perhaps give some thoughts on how the regulations would tailor with appropriate enforcement activity appropriately as well.

Thank you. I think I can give some reassurance to Russell George's anxieties there, because he has set out the process of traffic regulation orders and exempting streets across a large area that would apply if there was a blanket ban, but, as I've made clear, it's not the proposal of the taskforce to create a blanket ban, nor the Welsh Government's proposal. So, all of those things he's described won't be necessary under this proposal. This is a much smarter and simpler way of doing it. The approach he sets out is the approach they're going to be doing in Scotland and we think that would be complex and cumbersome.

The approach that the taskforce has come up with is rather simpler than that, really: it's to say to local authorities, 'You know your communities best. We accept that not in every street is everybody able to avoid a pavement'—which I think is something we all need to reflect on; we've created an environment like that and we do need to come back to that, but, for now, what we can do in the meantime is to give powers to issue fines in those areas where it's been reported that anti-social parking is causing particular problems. So, for example, if it would be outside of a school or a particular setting, then they could blitz that area, if you like, with fines to avoid that anti-social behaviour. It would be a smart intervention, not a blanket approach. So, that's why I think the Welsh approach is better than the Scottish approach, in that it is more flexible; it allows the problem to be targeted where it is most manifested. As Russell George said, were we to have a blanket ban, every time we did think pavement parking was appropriate, we'd have to introduce individual traffic regulation orders for that particular street, which would be a very expensive and time-consuming process. So, I think there's a misunderstanding there, so I hope that my reassurance has given some comfort.

In terms of the funding, he's right, of course, there will be an implication from this for local authorities to be able to decide how they allocate their resources, and that's a conversation we'll be having with them in the run-up to this coming in.

I'm grateful to the Minister for his statement today and very pleased to be able to say that we can maintain the cross-party support to which he refers. I'd echo what he says about the work of the taskforce: they've done an excellent piece of work and it seems to me that this pragmatic approach is a very sensible one.

I'd echo too what the Deputy Minister has said about the seriousness of the problem. It's the sort of thing that, if you've never been affected by it, it could seem trivial, but, as the Deputy Minister says, for people, predominately mums, with pushchairs, for people with mobility issues, for people just going about their ordinary everyday lives—. In some of the casework that I've had, where people have suffered from persistent discourtesy in this regard from neighbours, it actually becomes a blight on their house, a blight on their property and a blight on their life. So, for people who are immediately affected, this is a really serious issue, and, as the Deputy Minister says, if we want to create environments where it is easy for people to walk, where you feel safe to walk along the road with your children, with your family, if you're an older person you feel safe and comfortable, then this is an issue that has to be addressed.

I'd like to ask the Deputy Minister to assure us that he will look at the particular issues that get created by commercial vehicles, whether those are commercial vehicles picking up and dropping off in some of our town centres, whether those are vehicles where people are perhaps doing building work on a house and you end up with inappropriate parking over a period of days—I guess those would be the sorts of issues where a local authority could decide that was a problem and that they would need to take action.

Russell George has already referred to the issue of those communities where there really isn't anything else that can be done apart from some parking on roads, and I wonder—and I'm thinking particularly of Valleys communities here—if the implementation group could take a look at whether there's a capacity to create small amounts of community parking spaces. I think of lots of places in the Valleys where there are the odd bits of waste ground that nobody seems to know who they own or what they're doing with them, and it could be possible for a local authority to help reduce the problem of parking on pavements if some of those opportunities could be taken up flexibly.

You've touched, with Russell George, on the cost of enforcement. I wonder if it is the case, and if the Deputy Minister can tell us today—is the intention to allow local authorities to retain the fines that they levy, because, if that is the case, then it could eventually become a cost-neutral operation for them, as many of them, for example, run parking enforcement these days.

So, with those few specific questions to raise, I offer the Deputy Minister our support once again. I did a little bit of work on social media about this debate that's happening today, this statement today, and had responses from far apart in my own region, from Pontyberem to Blaenau Ffestiniog, with people telling me that this was a real issue for them and that they were glad that the Senedd was addressing it—so, very happy to offer the Deputy Minister Plaid Cymru's support in this regard.

Thank you very much and I appreciate that support. I think this is an issue that does cross party lines and will take a number of years to bring into force, and I think, as it's being enforced by all local authorities of all colours, it's important that that consensus is maintained, and I'm pleased that I have been in discussions with local authority leaders and with the police and crime commissioners, who are supportive too.

To answer the specific points in reverse order: yes, these are local authority powers, therefore it'll be for local authorities to decide how to deploy them and they, of course, will get any revenue that is raised. We do not see this as a revenue-raising measure; this is something for local authorities, their judgment about how to use it best to respond to local representations, as I think that's right.

In terms of creating parking spaces, I've had this debate myself today on social media. The purpose of this, alongside the 20 mph speed limit, alongside the approach we have towards modal shift in the forthcoming Wales transport strategy, is to change our culture and to change the local environment, putting people before cars. I don't think creating extra parking spaces is the medium- or long-term answer to this. We need to be—. One of the reasons why there are parking problems is because there are too many cars for the spaces available. Many families now have four cars—or more, in some cases—on streets that clearly weren't designed for that.

So, putting aside scarce public space towards car parking—and bearing in mind that would cost money—we know that a quarter of all households don't have a car, so money would be diverted from services that would benefit them to benefiting car owners, so it would be a socially unjust move. I think we need to be very careful that we don't just perpetuate the problem in creating extra space; this needs to be part of a basket of measures, and this is just one, as part of a range of interventions, to encourage people to use cars less, and also to think to futureproof this, because, as we know, as self-driving cars come in—. We know most cars are idle for 23 hours a day, with a very significant investment by people in cars that are sitting not doing anything for most of the time. What self-driving cars will be able to allow us, of course—and they'll be so expensive, it's unlikely most people will be able to buy them—is that we'll able to call on them as we need them, and, when they're not being used, rather than sitting idle, they can go off and be of use to someone else.

So, I'm expecting—and this is what the experts are suggesting—that, as these come in over the next 20 years or so, we'll need fewer cars, because the current fleet of cars will be able to be used more efficiently. So, I don't think we should be, in responding to people's concerns about this, looking to divert money to create extra car parking spaces. We need to see this as a suite of measures to shift the balance in society away from private car ownership to giving people genuine alternatives for getting around for local journeys.

And finally, on the initial point on commercial vehicles, I mentioned that the Federation of Small Businesses was among those who were on the pavement parking taskforce and who will now be continuing to work with stakeholders on implementing this, and I think that is an important point that I'll make sure that that group considers.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement today. I welcome the work of the pavement parking taskforce and I recognise the impact that parking on pavements has on pedestrians, particularly those with mobility issues, pushchairs, and wheelchair users. But representing the Valleys, steeped with many beautiful but narrow terraced streets, I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that I'm also pleased to see the pragmatic approach contained in recommendations 2 and 3 that, in some areas, it will be necessary to make exemptions and allow pavement parking.

With streets like that that have been built 150 or more years ago, we can understand the problems that arise there, but what I would like to ask you is: what discussions have you had with the Minister for Housing and Local Government about the way that the big builders build modern housing estates, in many cases with very narrow roads and a lack of parking for households, that mean that pavement parking is an issue there, in areas where, really, those developments should have been built to allow for proper parking and the proper use of pavements? That is an area that I would like to see the Welsh Government focusing on in future.

You also mention your work with the FSB, and I wonder whether part of these discussions have touched on the number of people now who take work vans home and park them outside their houses. It's certainly an issue that very many constituents raise with me when they're unable to park outside their own homes, particularly in these narrow terraced streets. I'm not sure what can be done about it, but I would welcome your thoughts on that in reply. And—

Thank you, Vikki. That's two questions. You're at two minutes, now—a minute over. Minister.

Thank you. Yes, I'll try and be brief in response. We have, as part of the latest 'Planning Policy Wales' issued, about two years ago now, put the hierarchy of road use within that guidance, which puts pedestrians at the top and cars at the bottom, and making sure that is implemented in all new build, I think, is going to be crucial for making sure that this problem doesn't keep popping up. Because one of the problems we do have, as Vikki Howells correctly identified, is that new-build estates build in the problem and it is often impractical—. We've all walked these as part of our many happy weekends canvassing our constituencies, where, in many estates, it would be very difficult to implement a ban, which is one of the reasons why we favour the pragmatic approach. So, Vikki is right to highlight the problem.

And the commercial vehicles, in a sense, is another manifestation of the fact that we have developed a car-centric society, and that's—. We're trying, in a sense, to deal with the symptoms of the problem here, both with the 20 mph speed limit proposal and with pavement parking, but unless we deal with the problem at its root, then we're going to keep having these manifestations. And that's why, I think, the focus on modal shift in the forthcoming Wales transport strategy is essential, not just for tackling climate change, because it is a crucial part of that, but also in rebalancing our society away from the focus on car ownership as the be-all and end-all, and dominating the way our communities look and feel.

Thank you for your statement, Deputy Minister. Pavement parking is one of the biggest problems facing those with mobility issues, young mums with pushchairs and small children, and persons with sight loss. Deputy Minister, unless measures are strictly enforced, my constituents will continue to have to run the gauntlet whenever they leave their homes. How will measures be enforced, and what discussions have you had with local authorities and police forces about enforcement measures? Because, in a small village within my region, a commercial vehicle constantly parks where there are double yellow lines, forcing people out onto the road and repeatedly endangering lives.

Deputy Minister, that said, do you agree that we also have to address the other side of the coin, which is the lack of parking provision? What discussions have you had with the major house builders about ensuring that housing developments provide sufficient parking provision at the property or nearby? And do you agree that providing one or two parking spaces for a five-bedroomed home is completely inadequate nowadays? Some households have two or three cars—often four. Deputy Minister, what actions is the Welsh Government taking to reduce reliance on personal cars? And will you be making additional investment in public transport? What consideration have you given to promoting or even subsidising car-sharing schemes as an alternative? Finally, Deputy Minister, what impact do you think working from home will have on car ownership and the problem of pavement parking? Diolch yn fawr.

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do justice to all of those questions in the time available. A number of them have already been covered in the statement. So, perhaps Caroline Jones will forgive me if I just focus on those that haven't been covered.

The issue of car sharing, I think, is a crucial one, and encouraging people to make what are called 'smarter choices'—car sharing and travel planning being among them—will be an important part of the measures that we set out to tackle climate change as part of the Wales transport strategy. Crucially, the example she said about people having five cars in a five-bedroomed home, I think that we need to ask ourselves as a society: is that what we want to continue seeing? Do we want a situation where people feel that the only choice they have is to have multiple cars that, as I say, sit idle for most of the time? Surely, we need to be moving towards a position, if we are serious about implementing our climate change commitments, of reducing people's reliance on cars.

Of course, people will still have cars. I happily drive a car. But, you shouldn't need to have a car to make every journey. You should have a choice, and it should be easier and more convenient to use public transport for many of our everyday journeys. That's what we need to be moving towards. We have put significant investment in, especially in the wake of COVID, to shore up the public transport sector, which otherwise would have gone out of business in many cases. But all of us need to think about the share of spend on transport of different modes, reflecting where we want to get to.   

Minister, can I genuinely say that I really welcome this and the actions that flow from it? In the nearly 20 years that I have been a representative here in Ogmore, this has grown and grown year after year in my constituency. I think that you are right in focusing on two aspects. One is a pragmatic way forward that works with local authorities, works with local communities and, I have to say, with organisations on the ground as well, like the Bridgend coalition of disabled people, in order to find solutions. But, the other thing is this massive need for behavioural change as well, and that, I have to say, is a mountain to do. When you look at, as has been mentioned, terraced houses in communities in my valley, which were not designed to have a car outside and now have possibly one or two cars, or possibly a trailer and a works van as well, that's the scale of the challenge that we have. It's for you and me and others to stand with people and explain that we can do this in a different way.

So, can I ask him to expand on how he sees this working in engagement with local communities, local residents, local interest groups, including those groups of visually impaired and people who have mobility issues, local parents and children and toddlers, as well as residents and the local authority, to make sure that it's a bespoke arrangement for every street and every community, and not simply a hammer to crack the same nut on every street?

There were two points there, really. First, I agree with Huw Irranca when he paints the picture that Vikki Howells also presented us with, of narrow streets with multiple cars and sometimes work vehicles, and I would reiterate: we can't build our way out of this problem. This is a problem that has emerged over the last 20 to 30 years as car dependency has grown. Even if we had the money and the land available, I think that there would be serious questions to be asked as to whether or not this was the right priority for us, because it simply perpetuates the problem and doesn't address the problem at source.

In terms of implementing this now, and working with local communities, this is why, in both the 20 mph hour work and this work, I have sought to make sure that local authorities are the key partners in delivering this, and getting them, in the spirit of co-production, around the table as we come up with these rules and recommendations, to come up with something that will work for them.

Just look at the timetable. We are saying that, in July 2022, the pavement parking powers will come in for local authorities. Then, the following April, the 20 mph speed limits will come into force right across Wales. In both of those cases, it will be up to the local authorities to decide how those powers are implemented in their local areas, which they will know best. We'll be working alongside them, up to that point, in developing a public communications campaign, much like we did on organ donation, that tries to bring people along with us, not as a way of penalising them or making life difficult, but as a way of saying to them, 'We have a shared sense of values here with the way we want society to be and how our local communities want to work.' We know from repeated opinion surveys that these are considered real, everyday nuisance problems for people in their communities, and that's why we want to work, both with the public, to bring them along with a sense of shared spirit and understanding and common purpose, and with local authorities to make sure that the implementation is right and is malleable and flexible enough at a local level so that they can decide how and where to apply it.

Well, this is a problem that's blighted my community in Aberconwy right from when I was a town councillor, to county councillor, to where I am now, and I've been here—as Llyr corrected me earlier—nearly 10 years. So, I really welcome your statement. It's quite sad to see people—. We have an older demographic in Aberconwy and it really is sad when—. You tend to think kerb parking, parking on the kerb—no. You see whole cars, very often, half a car's width, and I have to say, sometimes, when bushes are overgrown as well, there has been absolutely no consideration whatsoever for the person struggling to access that pavement. I notice that across Wales, 80 per cent have little confidence that the local authority or the police can do anything.

I know, in my own situation, I've got a brilliant local authority, but there does become this buck-passing, so a definitive—. But, what I would say to you is that our local authorities are very, very stretched at the moment, so I will be looking for additional resources to back this up, because statements are all well and good, Deputy Minister, but I do believe that, if you're going to give them the job to do to enforce the fines—I like the idea of Helen Mary where it could actually become a stream of revenue, but to begin with, there are the actual setting-up costs. So, I'd like to see some considerations there.

And finally, what I would like to ask—. Dropped pavements are a huge concern as well in my constituency, so whilst you're putting guidance out there and instructions to local authorities, will you please have some concern for those who are in buggies or wheelchairs or zimmers—you know, the little roll-along zimmers—and make sure that we can have more dropped kerbs, as well? So, let's get this right.

And finally, my final—

No, there's no 'finally', Janet Finch-Saunders.

Oh, okay.

Minister.

Thank you very much. I very warmly welcome Janet Finch-Saunders's comments. On the two specific points, local authorities already have civil enforcement powers over a number of things. What we are simply doing here is adding a tool to the armoury. So, from a minimalist point of view, we're not creating any extra work or extra responsibilities for them; we're giving them an extra tool to deploy if they choose to deploy it, and if pavement parking is a problem that they're getting in their area and they want to tackle it and they want to issue fines, we will be letting them do that. So, there's no inherent need for additional funding for that. But, obviously we'll be working with local authorities, as we have done, to fully understand if there are any extra demands that will be created to implement this properly and we'll be discussing that in the normal way.

On dropped kerbs, as I say, this is part of shifting the local environment to make it more pedestrian friendly. We have created, over the last 50 years, a hostile environment for pedestrians and for cyclists on our roads and in our communities, and this is part of the movement to change that. Because unless we do change that, we're going to continue to have the problem of obesity, of air quality and of rising carbon emissions—all the things that all of us say we want to tackle—and this is an important part of, on the ground, changing that.

Local authorities already have access to funding through the active travel funds, and let's remember, active travel is about walking and about cycling; it's about pedestrians. And we have money for continuous improvement under the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 for local authorities, ring fenced every year from the allocations that we make to them, where they are able to access money for improving the environment for small changes like dropped kerbs, just as they have money for taking away cycle lane barriers, for example, that no longer suit the purpose that they were badly designed for in the first place. So, there is funding there already for local authorities to do that, but I would agree with her that this has got to be seen within the context of making our communities more pedestrian friendly, and that's going to require a range of interventions, and this is just one of them.

And David Rees.

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. Can I thank the Deputy Minister for his statement? I fully endorse what he has been saying relating to the need to take action. Only last weekend I actually came across a parked van in a nasty section of road up the Afan valley, and I was forced onto the road, and that situation should never arise. I accept everything he has said about looking, for the future, at a modal change in people's behaviour and the reduction in vehicles, but we're not there yet, and we still have a lot of work to be done to get there while we get our public transport in place. Therefore, will he look very carefully at some of the temporary actions that can be taken to support people, to make sure that people come with us? I don't like talking about this as a cash revenue for local authorities, because people will see it merely as a means of them getting cash, not actually understanding the purpose of it; and the purpose of it is to actually ensure safe pedestrianisation for everybody. So, will you look at temporary measures in the meantime until we get to the position where we have an effective public transport system and we are then able to actually see the reduction in vehicles? Because there are many people in many communities for whom, at this point in time and maybe for the foreseeable future, the vehicle is the only way they can get to work or the only way they can get to their essential places. But we do need to view both: movement in one direction, but, at the same time, support that movement by offering alternatives temporarily.

I agree with that. This is clearly going to be—you know, it's taken decades for us to get this position and it's going to take time to change the culture and to put in place the investment and to rebalance the investment towards measures that discourage car use and encourage more modal shift. So, this isn't going to happen with a click of the fingers.

Let's be clear about what this power is about. Not everybody who parks on the pavement does so because they don't have an alternative. Some people park on the pavement because they're inconsiderate, because they haven't thought about what it's like to be a mother with a pushchair or a partially sighted person who can't get around. And as we become more car dependent, fewer people know what it's like to be without a car to get around under their own steam.

And this is also a poverty issue. We know that in the poorest 20 per cent of households, a quarter of people are overdependent on car transport. Sorry, I've got that wrong, Presiding Officer. In the bottom 20 per cent of households, people spend something like a quarter of their income on running cars. And, increasingly, we are forcing people who can't afford it to get cars, because we have created an environment where that's the only way they can get about. This has got to be seen as part of a broader movement of shifting that, through addressing this transport poverty, addressing the inequalities. We're essentially saying to people on lower incomes, 'You can stick with substandard bus services' or, 'You can walk on cluttered streets'.

Part of our intervention is for creating a fairer society as well as a society that tackles the blights of air pollution, obesity and climate change. So, to David Rees's point: it's really important that we do this right and sensitively and bring people with us. This is not a measure designed to penalise people. We've got to help people to make the change, and that requires multiple interventions. But, also, we need to remind people that if they do things that are antisocial and disadvantage people who are vulnerable, then there's a penalty to be paid.

Thank you, Minister. We will now take a short break to permit a change-over in the Chamber.

Plenary was suspended at 17:48.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:54, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

Welcome back.