Item 8 is a motion to note the annual report on the Senedd Comission's official languages scheme for 2019-20. And I call on the commissioner with responsiblity for official languages to move the motion—Rhun ap Iorwerth. Rhun. 

Motion NDM7447 Elin Jones

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with paragraph 8 (8) of Schedule 2 of the Government of Wales Act 2006:

Notes the Annual Report on the Senedd Commission’s Official Languages Scheme, laid before the Senedd on 18 June 2020.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Llywydd. It is a great pleasure to present this report on our official languages scheme for the year April 2019 to March 2020. In line with usual practice, the report had been completed in June this year, but, of course, circumstances have prevented us from holding the debate until now. The report looks back at our work as a Commission over the year, celebrating successes, but also, very importantly, noting those times when we haven't managed to reach the ambitious targets set out in the scheme.

We have achieved much during the year. Perhaps one of the main highlights was holding a Senedd Commission staff Welsh language skills survey. You can see the details in the report itself, but it was very encouraging to see over 80 per cent of the respondents to the survey noting that they have some Welsh language skills. Those vary from courtesy level Welsh to fluent Welsh speakers, and it's testament that our recruitment system, based on the language skills matrix, is working. Without doubt, this is a much more accurate reflection of the linguistic continuum that exists in Wales now than the old binary method of describing individuals either as Welsh speakers or non-Welsh speakers. It's also testament to the success of our Welsh-language skills training provision, with the numbers receiving support to learn or improve their skills increasing on an annual basis. The information obtained through the survey will strengthen our continuous work on capacity planning and ensure that we have the right skills in the right places across the establishment.

Another notable development during the year was the signing of a memorandum of understanding between the Senedd Commission and the Welsh Language Commissioner. Of course, the fact that we have our own Act means that we are not accountable to the Welsh Language Commissioner, but rather we are accountable to the 60 elected Members of this Senedd by holding an annual debate in this Plenary, and via continuous feedback from you on our services. However, I think that establishing the memorandum has meant that we are able to maintain a relationship with the commissioner, and, more importantly, means that we strengthen our ability to learn of the most recent developments in language planning and the provision of bilingual services in Wales, and can share our own good practices with others too.

It would be very strange if I weren’t to refer to the situation around the coronavirus pandemic in these few words. The first lockdown was introduced towards the end of the reporting period. The fact that we are here participating in another debate conducted virtually is testament to the innovation in the Senedd as a result of the restrictions, and a central part of that was the need to ensure that we are able to continue to operate bilingually in the virtual world, and later on in the hybrid world.

As the report was being drafted, we were already among the first legislatures to hold fully bilingual virtual Plenary meetings. We have also advised a large number of establishments and institutions across Wales on the use of technology to provide bilingual services. It’s been encouraging to speak with pride about our experiences in international events, as the chair of the Welsh branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, and I know that Commission staff have participated in international events too. We will certainly be learning from our experiences and will be seeking new opportunities to use technology to improve our bilingual services. We can discuss that more in next year’s report.

One of the things that I am eager to do, as we move forward, is to learn more about what encourages language choice among Members and their staff in the work of the Senedd. The report notes a slight reduction in the use of the Welsh language. I’m always pleased to see Members having a go at using the Welsh language in the work of the Senedd, but I think we need to work at all levels in order to ensure that any barriers to the use of the Welsh language, be it an issue of confidence, an issue of technology or the use of Senedd contributions in the media and so on, are all overcome. There is an important role, and we should recognise that, for this Senedd as a linguistic role model for Wales, respecting people’s language choice, but also encouraging people to make the most of the fact that we are a bilingual institution.

In looking towards the future, to conclude, we are drawing to the end of the fifth Senedd and the remaining time will be an opportunity to focus on ensuring that we have achieved all of our objectives and on planning for the sixth Senedd. Of course, we’ve already started to review the current scheme to understand what works well and in which areas we need to make improvements. I would encourage Members to contribute to that work when the Commission opens its consultation.

Thank you very much, Rhun, and to all the officials who have been working on this scheme for many years now. I know that there will be slight disappointment in hearing that some of us haven’t been using as much Welsh in the Chamber as we have done in the past, and I’m certainly one of those—I will admit to that. Perhaps it would be a fair comment to say that this year hasn’t been a normal year and I also feel that we have had fewer debates and questions and ministerial statements on the Welsh language during this period too. Having said that of course, there is nothing preventing us from contributing in Welsh on any item of business, so this report does remind us—it certainly reminds me—that we should be looking towards seeing an increase in the use of the Welsh language rather than a reduction.

It seems that the situation looks more positive among Commission staff and Member staff, and I think it’s an important point that we do note the spirit of Welsh language standards without being subject to them. The reduction in the number of English-only documents is to be welcomed and the fact that there have only been a handful of other breaches is also a significant achievement.

But, for me, the main success of this year is the understanding of the learner experience. We said that more Commission staff are fluent in both languages as opposed to the other levels, which is a positive thing, but it may lead to the question as to whether we are truly extending out to all parts of Wales in our recruitment. But, the recognition of the value of lower level skills and developing skills has been so very important too. Being a Welsh language learner, surrounded by fluent Welsh speakers, can be frightening on occasion, however kind those individuals are. If we can't get Welsh in the workplace in a successful way for our Welsh learners, well, we do have to ask how realistic the target of 1 million Welsh speakers is. If we can't show that a bilingual working environment can work, then how will the general population begin to think of this as something that is normal? If our staff who have a little or no Welsh language skills can't leave every night saying, 'There's no need to be afraid', and that no-one is excluded or judged, how can we persuade other employers that this is possible and worth while?

Just one point in conclusion, here, Rhun: I can see that officials have been sharing their thoughts and experiences with other organisations on how we nurture bilingualism. Would it be possible to include school and college leaders at some point? Many people will be considering how they can deliver the expectations of the curriculum in order to make bilingualism a reality for our pupils. Part of that is to create the right environment and the right culture, and it appears that we have positive information to share with them. Thank you.

Thank you for the report. I would also like to thank Commission staff for responding very positively to the challenge of continuing to provide bilingual services of the highest quality during this current crisis. The Commission has taken full advantage of technology in order to be in the vanguard in our work, and I think we should all, in this Senedd, be very proud of that.

As you've noted, we do need to use those experiences in order to learn how we can incorporate technology into our provision of bilingual services. Zoom interpretation in Plenary and committee meetings has worked very effectively, I believe—more effectively than the service in normal Plenaries and committees, perhaps, certainly from the perspective of those of us who use the Welsh language.

The experience with meetings on other platforms isn't as positive, and we still need to apply pressure in this area. There is concern that Teams is favoured and promoted for virtual working internally, rather than Zoom, although Teams doesn't support interpretation at the moment. Political groups have to fund the cost of Zoom from their own office costs in order to hold bilingual meetings. So, I do think, and I know that you would agree with this, that we do need to continue to try to find a solution in terms of Teams, but, in the meantime, we should continue to promote the use of Zoom in order to make it as easy as possible for Members, Commission staff and Members' staff to use it in order to continue to hold internal meetings in Welsh with interpretation where necessary.

You have mentioned this afternoon, and Suzy Davies has also mentioned, the use of the Welsh language by Senedd Members, by those of us who are Welsh speakers. I'm talking here about the use of the Welsh language in Plenary meetings and so on, and this has been covered in the media too. One barrier, in my view, is the views of broadcasters and their attitude toward this. They are very reluctant to use a Welsh language clip in an English language broadcast. This does place Members such as myself, who make a great deal of use of the Welsh language, at a disadvantage, if truth be told.

I do very much hope that this is an issue that you will continue to discuss in detail with the broadcasters over the next year. It's an issue that's been raised on a number of occasions. It is important to bear in mind that the Commission has control over our sound and broadcast feeds, which are shared with our broadcasters. That, perhaps, would find a solution for us to put more pressure on them to make more use of and to have principles in place in return for access to those audio streams.

I was pleased to see that the Translation and Reporting Service had started to provide subtitling training to staff, so that short video clips of high quality could be provided with a swift turnaround. Perhaps the BBC and others could follow the good practice within the Commission, and seeing the broadcasters doing this and using clips with subtitles would normalise the use of the Welsh language as an important part of the life of all people in Wales.

If I could just turn, in conclusion, to a few comments on the next Senedd. As we prepare for that Senedd and as we approach a decade since introducing official languages legislation in this place, we do need to consider, I believe, whether the official languages regime is fit for purpose in light of the 1 million Welsh speakers strategy and the cross-party support that exists for the aim of promoting the Welsh language. I will perhaps be the first to put the question out there: should the Commission be subject to Welsh language standards, whilst also strengthening the independence of the Welsh Language Commissioner from the Welsh Government, so that the checks and inquiries could happen properly in such a scenario? For me, it would make sense and be a signal of the cross-party support for the 1 million Welsh speakers strategy.

Just a few brief points to conclude, if I may, Deputy Presiding Officer. I do believe that we need to build on the language skills work that was done at the beginning of this Senedd. There is more work to be done there. And then, a translation fund for Members; I think it is now time that we review the arrangements in place to translate certain materials for constituency work. Why limit the support for Members to do more bilingually to simply one aspect of our work, namely our work within the Senedd? So, just a few constructive comments there, and I hope you will take them in that spirit. Thank you very much.

You really are out of time.

I have finished. Thank you.

Thank you. Gareth Bennett.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to the Commission for this report.

I wasn't speaking a bit of Welsh just for the effect. 

I am a Welsh learner.

So I am making a bit of an effort with the language, and I would point out that I do have an O-level in Welsh from my school days. I'd rather say it was a GCSE, because the O-level does age me a bit, but I'm afraid it was an O-level. So, can I say that efforts to boost the usage of Welsh are generally to be welcomed, albeit the best use of Welsh is as a living language, and resources are generally probably better directed into retaining Welsh as a living language where it is used as such, rather than in looking to hit targets that may turn out to be illusory or targets that end up being little more than a tick-box exercise?

Now, I take on board what Rhun has said today about Welsh speaking being a continuum rather than a binary 'yes' or 'no' issue, and the report that Rhun, as the Commissioner, is presenting today is regarding the use of Welsh within the Senedd, not in Wales as a whole. To some extent, I believe there is a case that the Senedd should try to replicate Wales as a whole, by which I mean the general demographics of Wales. There is a danger of groups being under-represented in terms of their employment within the Senedd, but there is also a danger of groups being over-represented. The problem with creating a policy of bilingualism across the Senedd estate is that one runs into the danger of over-representing Welsh speakers on the staff here, and the logical follow-on from that is that if one is over-representing Welsh speakers then one is discriminating against those people who do not speak Welsh, which actually amounts to some 70 per cent of the population of Wales. Now, of course, the picture is complicated, because some people have taken advantage of the Welsh courses on offer here at the Senedd, as I have done, to try and increase their ability in Welsh, and that is to be recommended. I would heartily encourage everyone who is interested in improving their Welsh to take advantage of the very good Welsh tuition that we have here at the Senedd.

But can I offer a few words of warning about the dangers of following a recruitment policy that seeks to effectively overrepresent Welsh speakers on the staff? Because I can see from the report that 100 per cent of all jobs that were advertised here last year did require at least some level of Welsh, ranging from fluent Welsh to what is now termed 'courtesy level' Welsh. And when you have a population in Wales in which some 70 per cent of people, according to the last available figures, do not speak any Welsh at all, then clearly, you're effectively discriminating against a large majority of the people of Wales when it comes to getting jobs here at the Senedd. Surely, one would want the Senedd to represent all the people of Wales, and not turn the staffing of it into a little Welsh language bubble. It is completely unrepresentative of the population of Wales. This, I'm afraid, is the danger of pursuing a policy that is too obsessed with bilingualism, and there will be that perception among a lot of the public that the Senedd is not really there to represent them; it's just there for the benefit of a small, elite group of Welsh speakers. So, I just wanted to add that note of caution. 

Thank you very much and thank you once again for the report.

Thank you. Nobody has taken the opportunity to make an intervention in this debate, therefore I'll call Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply. Rhun.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to the three Members who contributed to the debate. I will keep my closing comments quite brief.

Suzy Davies, first of all. Thank you for those comments. Suzy said that she was disappointed to see the number using the Welsh language going down and she pointed the finger at herself. Nobody should do that, of course. What we need is encouragement and to give people the opportunity to consider their options to use the Welsh language. But it is something that we should be aware of, and in that regard, I agree entirely with what Suzy said. And we should also bear in mind that we need leadership from Government as well as from backbench Members.

There are challenges, of course, that we are seeking to overcome. And given the point that Suzy Davies made in terms of reaching out to schools and colleges, well, the linguistic challenges exist across Wales, and I do agree that we could be seeking ways to share good practice with those sectors, too. We will seek ways to do that, because it's an issue of the Senedd taking its national role seriously and reaching out to people and allowing people to learn from our experiences too.

In terms of the use of Welsh language—if I can return to that—she said that it's been an unusual year and I wonder whether that accounts for the reduced use of the Welsh language. Very strangely, I've found it easier to use the Welsh language in committee meetings and Plenary meetings; there is no delay now as people reach for their headphones and so on, it happens far more smoothly in the virtual scenario. So, there are benefits that can emerge from operating virtually in this way. But thank you for those comments.

Siân Gwenllian raised a number of points encouraging me as Commissioner. Now, I wouldn't disagree with the need to look again at what our status is and whether the Senedd should be subject to Welsh language standards, and so on. What I would say is that what's important is what we do as an institution, not so much what our motivations are or what the legal expectations upon us are. It's quite right that that debate should continue and it should be a lively debate.

In terms of technology, Siân made some very good points. Zoom was something miraculous that happened just before the pandemic. I came across Zoom for the first time in December of last year; all of a sudden, we have this platform where we can work entirely bilingually. And, yes, there is some catching up work to be done for other platforms, including Teams. Teams, of course, internationally, has had to develop from being a platform for just four people back in March; now it's a far larger platform. But we do need to make the most of the relationship that the Senedd has with companies like Microsoft in order to ensure that that ability to work bilingually on all platforms is made a reality.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

In terms of broadcasters, I agree very strongly with the comments that we heard from Siân Gwenllian. I have had some discussions with one of Wales's leading broadcasters recently, and I made the very points that we heard from Siân Gwenllian. There are technological barriers on occasion, and we need to recognise those, but also, if there are barriers in terms of culture, attitudes or policies in broadcasting, then it's very important that we continue to push for changes in those broadcaster attitudes. Because I agree, it does place a Member who chooses to use the Welsh language at disadvantage if the norm is not to use that material in Welsh on English language broadcasts. So much has changed in recent years. We wouldn't have had programmes such as Hinterland, where both languages are heard alongside each other, some years ago. It's becoming the norm, and that also needs to happen in relation to how this Senedd is broadcast.

Returning now to Gareth Bennett to conclude. This isn't an obsession with bilingualism, I can promise you that. I am bilingual, we all have two languages, and we all take ownership of two languages, whether we speak those languages on a daily basis or not. And it's also important to bear in mind that what the Senedd policies do is to provide everyone who comes to work in this institution the opportunity to develop themselves along that linguistic continuum. Courtesy level Welsh is very basic, but what's clear is that the ability to acquire those basic skills is not only important to the institution as a national body, but it's also important to the individuals. It's also crucial that we ensure that we do reach out to all communities in Wales and give the same opportunities to all those communities.

I will conclude there. Thank you once again for the contributions. I will close with some thanks: to Siân Gwenllian for the work that she did as Commissioner, who preceded me, doing excellent work in leading to the drafting of this report; and thank you to the staff who work so very hard to implement our language policy and our official languages scheme, who've also been so crucial in preparing this report that we're discussing today.

The proposal is to note the report. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, I see an objection, and therefore I will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.