Our next group is group 2, and it relates to the voting system for local government elections. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 152, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move the lead amendment—Delyth Jewell. 

Amendment 152 (Delyth Jewell) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. We've tabled these amendments to change the voting system in local government to a fairer one. The arguments have been rehearsed before, and I apologise to members of the committee who may have heard me making these arguments previously, but I think it's important to state them again at this stage. 

First-past-the-post has created many undemocratic outcomes. For example—and it was an example I raised earlier as well—in Sketty, Swansea in 2012, the Liberal Democrats won all five seats, despite gaining just 38 per cent of the vote. The Labour Party, with 29.2 per cent, and the Conservatives, with 20 per cent, both failed to gain a single seat in that five-member ward, despite strong local support. Now, under the current system, those who finished third in terms of share of the vote can go on to win the most seats. The starkest example of this was possibly in 2008, where the Liberal Democrats came first in terms of seats for Cardiff, but third in terms of votes. I suppose the irony of the Liberal Democrats winning such seats unfairly under the first-past-the-post system is amusing for some, but this is not a partisan point. All parties have benefited disproportionately from first-past-the-post, and all have suffered from it. 

Multimember wards make this even worse, and create something of a lottery. The question is really whether we accept unfairness and a lottery, or want to make a positive change. Now, I know there is support for these changes across the spectrum in the Chamber, so my appeal to all Members individually would be to have the courage of their convictions and send a signal that it's time to end this undemocratic system. Diolch.

Our amendments in this group seek to remove the ability of individual local authorities to change their voting system from first-past-the-post to single transferable vote. This isn't to be contrary, this is to reflect the evidence received by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee at Stage 1, which Members supported, where the majority of stakeholders did not support the provisions to enable principal councils to choose which voting systems to use. For example, the Welsh Local Government Association said that there is a need for

'a clear and consistent voting system across all local authorities to avoid complexity and risk of voter confusion', adding that the complexity of allowing principal councils to choose their own voting system could be 'quite horrendous', with the potential for chaos a real concern. 

Similar concerns and opposition to the provision were expressed by all the principal councils and representatives of town and community councils who responded to the committee's consultation. The Society of Local Authority Chief Executives acknowledged that there may be perceived benefits of allowing principal councils a choice, but said the risk of complexity and confusion around having two voting systems

'could have the potential to disenfranchise voters with the worst-case scenario being an impact on turnout'.

The Electoral Commission, whilst noting that the electoral system to be used for local government elections is a matter for the Welsh Government and the Senedd to determine, concurred that there are risks and challenges associated with the proposal. This includes an increased risk of voter confusion and administrative challenges. The commission noted that it would be required to publish two sets of guidance, one on each voting system for electoral administrators, for political parties, candidates and agents, and run separate public awareness campaigns.

The Electoral Commission also referred to the ethos of consistency in electoral planning that has developed in Wales over recent years, and said it would be disappointed if that co-ordinating activity were to be undermined by different systems operating in different counties. As I stated during the Stage 1 debate, 33 out of 35 respondents to the White Paper consultation disagreed and preferred to keep one voting system for the whole of Wales. Further, as our committee report states, 

'the majority of the evidence received oppose the provisions that allow principal councils to choose their own voting system.'

The regulatory impact assessment also notes that additional costs will be incurred should a principal council opt to change its voting system, but these costs are currently unknown.

To ensure consistency with this, amendment 137 seeks to remove the power for local authorities or Welsh Ministers to decide on what voting system is to be used in the first ordinary election of councillors to the principal council for a new principal area. The section 125 voting system allows for merger regulations to specify what electoral system—first-past-the-post or STV—is to be used for first elections for a newly created principal council. This amendment removes this choice, ensuring consistency of local government electoral systems across Wales.

Amendment 94 makes provisions to require a referendum to be held prior to a principal council exercising its power to change voting systems. This is a compromise amendment. Through a number of amendments, we're seeking to remove the ability of principal councils to unilaterally change their voting system to ensure the consistency of local government electoral systems across Wales and to avoid complexity and voter confusion. However, this amendment will mean that should our amendments not proceed, the decision to change to voting system in the election of a principal council is decided by local people rather than the council itself via referendum. Such an amendment will help to increase public participation in local decision making, which is meant to be one of the mains of this Bill.

Amendments 83, 92 and 148 are consequential to amendment 94. Diolch.

The Minister.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Welsh Government's policy, as provided for in this Bill, is to enable principal councils to choose between two voting systems. I consider that introducing this choice supports the principle of decisions being made at a more local level. I do not believe this local choice will lead to confusion: each council election is a separate event. Voters will be focused on the election for their council, and not on the one next door.

A principal council could not make a change on a whim, but must first consult local electors, community councils in the area and other persons as it considers appropriate, as contained in section 8, and a resolution to change the voting system requires at least two thirds of the total number of councillor seats on the council to vote in favour. As such, I reject amendments 151 to 157, 176 and 177, which have the effect of mandating STV for all principal council elections, by removing all provisions relating to the simple majority system, or first-past-the-post. This would result in no choice for principal councils.

I also cannot support amendments 168 to 171, the collective effect of which would be to impose STV on any new principal council created by merger or restructuring. This runs counter to the principle of councils being able to choose their own voting system. Equally, I'm afraid I cannot support amendments 83, 88 to 91, 93, 95 to 98, 100 and 144 to 146. These amendments also run counter to Welsh Government policy, by removing the provisions that provide for the introduction of STV as one of two voting systems to be available to principal councils. These amendments would keep the status quo, so first-past-the-post for all elections to principal councils and no choice.

I call on Members to reject amendment 137. This amendment removes section 125, which requires merger regulations to specify which of the two voting systems will apply to the council created by the merger. It is necessary to have such provision as a consequence of there being two voting systems. 

Amendment 92 removes the requirement in section 8 of the Bill for a principal council to consult upon a proposal to change its voting system, whilst amendment 94 in effect replaces it with a requirement that a referendum be held before a voting system is changed.

Principal councils have tried and tested systems for consulting local people. I believe, in this case, local consultation is a more cost-effective and considered way of seeking out and testing views than a local referendum. This is why we included the very provision in section 8(5), which amendment 92 would remove. As such, I ask Members to reject amendments 92 and 94. For these reasons, I also call on Members to reject amendment 148, which enables councils to organise a local poll to ascertain the views of local people on the proposals to change the voting system.

Finally, I ask Members to support amendment 63. This is a minor technical amendment to refine the instruction that defines where, within the text being amended, the amendment provided for by paragraph 18(b) of Schedule 2 to the Bill should be inserted. Diolch.

Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Llywydd, and a thank you to everyone who's participated in this debate. It's disappointing to hear that the Government is to miss the opportunity once again to create a fairer voting system, and we will be pushing these amendments to a vote. Thank you.

If amendment 152 is agreed, amendment 88 will fall. The question is that amendment 152 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, and we will move to a vote on amendment 152 in the name of Delyth Jewell. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, two abstentions and 37 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed. 

Amendment 152: For: 11, Against: 37, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 88, Darren Millar. 

Amendment 88 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

I move.

The question is that amendment 88 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.]

So, we'll vote on gwelliant 88. 

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, two abstentions and 37 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed. 

Amendment 88: For: 12, Against: 37, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

If amendment 89 is agreed, amendments 153 and 154 will fall. The question is that amendment 89 be agreed. 

If it's being moved—

Amendment 89 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Yes. Skip that bit—it's moved, and therefore a vote on amendment 89 in the name of Mark Isherwood.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, two abstentions and 37 against. And therefore the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 89: For: 12, Against: 37, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Delyth Jewell, amendment 153.

Moved? Yes. I'll take a thumbs up for now.

Amendment 153 (Delyth Jewell) moved.

So, that's amendment 153. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 10, two abstentions and 39 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 153: For: 10, Against: 39, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 154, Delyth Jewell. Moved?

Amendment 154 (Delyth Jewell) moved.

The question is that amendment 154 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we'll move to a vote on amendment 154. Open the vote.

The vote is cast. Close the vote.

In favour 10, two abstentions and 39 against. Therefore, amendment 154 is not agreed.

Amendment 154: For: 10, Against: 39, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Darren Millar, amendment 90.

Amendment 90 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

The question is that amendment 90 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote on amendment 90. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, two abstentions and 36 against. Therefore, amendment 90 is not agreed.

Amendment 90: For: 13, Against: 36, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 91, Darren Millar.

Amendment 91 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

If amendment 91 is agreed, amendment 92 will fall. The question is that amendment 91 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll therefore call for a vote on amendment 91. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, two abstentions and 36 against. Amendment 91 is not agreed.

Amendment 91: For: 13, Against: 36, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 92, Darren Millar.

Amendment 92 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Move.

The question is that amendment 92 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll move to a vote on amendment 92. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, two abstentions, 36 against. Therefore, amendment 92 is not agreed.

Amendment 92: For: 13, Against: 36, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 94, Darren Millar.

Amendment 94 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Move.

If amendment 94 is agreed, amendment 93 falls. The question is that amendment 94 be agreed. [Objection.] There is an objection. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 94. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, four abstentions and 36 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 94: For: 11, Against: 36, Abstain: 4

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 93, Mark Isherwood. Darren Millar.

Amendment 93 (Mark Isherwood).

Move.

The question is that amendment 93 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection. We will move to a vote on amendment 93. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, two abstentions, 36 against. Therefore, amendment 93 is not agreed.

Amendment 93: For: 13, Against: 36, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 95, Darren Millar.

Amendment 95 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Move.

Is there any objection to amendment 95? [Objection.] There is. A vote on amendment 95. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, two abstentions and 36 against. Amendment 95 is not agreed.

Amendment 95: For: 13, Against: 36, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 96, Darren Millar.

Amendment 96 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

I move.

The question is that amendment 96 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.]Yes, there is an objection. We will move to a vote on amendment 96. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, two abstentions, 36 against. Therefore, amendment 96 is not agreed.

Amendment 96: For: 13, Against: 36, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Darren Millar, amendment 97.

Amendment 97 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

If amendment 97 is agreed, amendment 155 will fall. The question is that amendment 97 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 97. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, two abstentions and 36 against. And therefore amendment 97 is not agreed.

Amendment 97: For: 13, Against: 36, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Delyth Jewell, amendment 155.

Amendment 155 (Delyth Jewell) moved.

Moved.

It's moved. The question is that amendment 155 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. We will move to a vote on amendment 155. Open the vote. Thank you. Close the vote. In favour nine, three abstentions and 39 against. Therefore, amendment 155 is not agreed.

Amendment 155: For: 9, Against: 39, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 98, Mark Isherwood.

Amendment 98 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Moved. If amendment 98 is agreed, amendment 156 will fall. The question is that amendment 98 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. We will move to a vote on amendment 98. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 21, two abstentions and 28 against. And therefore the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 98: For: 21, Against: 28, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Delyth Jewell, amendment 156.

Move.

It's moved. The question is that amendment 156 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 156. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour nine, three abstentions and 39 against. Therefore, amendment 156 is not agreed.

Amendment 156: For: 9, Against: 39, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 99, Mark Isherwood.

Is it moved?

Amendment 99 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Moved.

The question is that amendment 99 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.]

Yes, there is an objection.

We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 99. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour nine, three abstentions and 39 against. Therefore, amendment 99 is not agreed.

Amendment 99: For: 9, Against: 39, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 100, Mark Isherwood—

Amendment 100 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

—is moved.

If amendment 100 is agreed, amendment 157 will fall. The question is that amendment 100 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. We will therefore move to a vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, three abstentions and 36 against. Therefore, amendment 100 is not agreed.

Amendment 100: For: 12, Against: 36, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 157, Delyth Jewell.

Amendment 157 (Delyth Jewell) moved.

Moved.

It is moved. The question is that amendment 157 be agreed. [Objection.] There is an objection to that. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 157. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour nine, three abstentions and 39 against. Therefore, amendment 157 is not agreed.

Amendment 157: For: 9, Against: 39, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 101, Mark Isherwood.

Amendment 101 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Move.

The question is that amendment 101 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We will move to a vote on amendment 101. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour nine, five abstentions and 37 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 101: For: 9, Against: 37, Abstain: 5

Amendment has been rejected