That bring us to our next item, a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, a deposit-return scheme and waste reduction Bill. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the motion. 

Motion NDM7481 Janet Finch-Saunders

Supported by Llyr Gruffydd

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes a proposal for a Bill that would make provisions to introduce a deposit return scheme and to reduce waste in Wales.

2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to:

a) establish the creation of a deposit return scheme for drinks containers in Wales, which would see consumers pay a deposit, repayable on return of the container;

b) reduce the number of single-use plastic and glass bottles, as well as steel and aluminium cans;

c) respond to increased amounts of recyclable waste, such as personal protective equipment being used to fight COVID-19, where a growing number of items are being discarded and affecting our wild and marine life; and

d) increase accountability by establishing a duty on the Welsh Government to lay an annual report to the Welsh Parliament detailing specific policies undertaken to reduce the discarding of recyclable waste and the impact these have had to improve Wales’s natural environment.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. In moving this legislative proposal, I would like to thank my north Wales colleague Llyr Gruffydd for supporting this.

Last year, Sir David Attenborough described plastic pollution as an unfolding catastrophe. He, of course, is quite right, as we can and should be doing more to avert the problem facing us. It is estimated that, currently, only 77 per cent of glass bottles, 66 per cent of aluminium cans and 65 per cent of plastic drink bottles are recycled. In fact, littering is a Wales-wide menace. Between July 2019 and June 2020, there were 1,034 instances of fly-tipping across Monmouthshire, 2,281 across Caerphilly and 2,816 across Rhondda Cynon Taf.

Plastic is the major material in our pollution problem. Bottle caps and lids are now within the top five items found on Welsh beaches, and analysis of the litter pick I held quite recently with the Marine Conservation Society found that 55.9 per cent of the items picked were made of either plastic or polystyrene. The vast majority, of course, were bottles and on-the-go food items. We can tackle this by introducing a deposit-return scheme. Many of the Members here have discussed this and said they've wanted this along the way, but here we are now still talking about it and still wanting it.

In fact, Scotland is leading the way, as a DRS will be introduced there from 1 July 2022. And I know that Welsh Labour are interested, because a DRS formed part of the consultation on 'Beyond Recycling', which did highlight some concerns such as alleged ineffective applicability in Wales, the potential carbon footprint from establishing a DRS, and impacts on our local authorities reaching recycling targets. But they do not justify any further delay.

This DRS could actually support local authorities in tackling fly-tipping. Scotland's Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee found that the benefits from collection efficiency and reduced costs for disposal of materials outweigh the costs of a DRS on local authorities. And in South Australia, DRS made kerbside recycling more profitable. So, there would be major benefits to our environment. Zero Waste Scotland stated that Scotland's scheme will cut emissions by the equivalent of around 4 million tonnes of carbon dioxide over the next 25 years. Making aluminium cans from old ones uses one twelfth of the energy utilised in production from raw material, 315 kg of carbon dioxide is saved per tonne of glass recycled, and even a Welsh Government survey highlighted that three quarters of adults support the idea of a DRS, and they are right to do so. The scheme could reduce the total amount of litter in Wales by up to a third.

Now, I appreciate the Welsh Government is working on a joint basis with England and Northern Ireland, and that preparations are being made for a second consultation. But do we need another one just to take this DRS forward in Wales, which we've all agreed on previously? Members will know that this item has been a recurring point since 2016—in fact, before—and should note the success of the schemes elsewhere, such as Finland, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Croatia. Iceland had a 90 per cent return rate in 2014; Germany 98 per cent in 2016; and Lithuania, 92 per cent in 2017.

So, my proposal aims to reflect another challenge of our time: personal protective equipment. We needed it, but we've certainly not needed the waste from it. Latex gloves take up to 100 years to biodegrade, yet worldwide, over 80 million gloves are needed by the COVID health response teams each month. There is room for innovation, and Meditech Gloves and Cranfield University have developed a natural latex, which would only take a couple of weeks to biodegrade. TerraCycle regulated waste have created a recycling programme to keep the environment PPE-free, and a Swansea-led team are developing a novel process called photoreforming, which uses sunlight to convert non-recyclable waste into clean hydrogen fuel. 

Now, I do know that the Welsh Government are supportive of the Swansea scheme, but we need to do more to harness such innovation, especially now that we are seeing more gloves, masks and sanitiser bottles decorating our environment. I also share Dŵr Cymru's concerns about the disposal of single use, plastic wet wipes, which contribute to around 2,000 sewer blockages every month. Yes, 2,000 every month. Welsh Government should include wipes in the list of items to be banned. We need decisive action to ensure Wales is zero waste by 2050, and we need legislation that shows that this Parliament responds promptly to public demands and the evolving climate crisis, hence my proposal to establish a duty on the Welsh Government to lay an annual report. 

Llywydd, Senedd Members, I opened by referring to Sir David Attenborough, and will close with his remarks that he said only last year:

'It is high time we turn our attention fully to one of the most pressing problems of today'— and that is—

'averting the plastic pollution crisis, not only for the health of our planet, but for the well-being of people around the world.'

We all now need to act on his calls. And I have shown today that there is more we can and should be doing now in Wales to help avert the current crisis. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr. 

I've supported this legislation proposal for two reasons. Firstly, I agree there's been an unacceptable delay in introducing action on this agenda, but also, I want Wales to go further than what is being proposed. It has been a big frustration, really. The Welsh Government has talked the talk for a number of years but, really, it isn't walking the walk. The Government has been talking about this for over a decade. I was elected in 2011, and at that time there was talk of action on a deposit-return scheme. Nearly a decade later, we're still waiting for those interventions to materialise.

Now, I understand the Government's wish to work in tandem with the UK Government, but, of course, it has meant severe delays and procrastination. I hold both the Welsh and the UK Governments equally culpable for the failure to act sooner. Now, we know from recent experiences, of course, that when Wales goes its own way, we very often can do much better. Scotland, as we've heard, has ploughed its own furrow on this, and it already has detailed plans in place for 2022, with set targets for 2025. So, why wait for Westminster, I say.

A deposit-return scheme, among other things, was a clear commitment in Plaid Cymru's manifesto in the 2016 election, and had we formed the Government, I'm convinced that we would already have a scheme in place. But, Labour's decision to hitch its wagon to the Tories in Westminster on this has clearly held us back. Now, Plaid Cymru has been consistently clear on our commitment to reducing waste. We want to place Wales at the forefront of the circular economy, and we want to ensure a zero-waste Wales by 2026, through a combination of legislation, policy initiatives such as the deposit-return scheme, of course, extended producer responsibility, which we're still talking about in the Senedd, and the use of planning laws, levies, and tax-making powers, et cetera, et cetera.

We know that the benefits of a deposit-return scheme are clear, as we've already heard. Drinks bottles, cans and lids contribute to around 10 per cent of all rubbish, and evidence shows that a deposit-return scheme is the best way of reducing that kind of waste and, of course, to increase levels of quality recycling. Now, last year, 45 countries around the world had already adopted this system. Norway and Australia have been doing it for many, many years, with the proven results becoming apparent very soon after rolling it out to the public.

Research from WRAP Cymru estimates that 400,000 tonnes of plastic waste is generated in Wales every year, of which around two-thirds is packaging waste. As we've heard, you can add to that now the new, emerging epidemic of PPE waste, especially face masks and gloves. I also joined the Marine Conservation Society recently for a beach clean, where it became immediately evident that this is now a huge problem that is going to haunt our environment for many, many years to come.

So, we all know what needs to be done. It's just a case of getting on and doing it. Instead of spending another decade talking about reducing waste, and merely aspiring to a waste-free Wales, we need concrete action on recycling and waste reduction. The Welsh Government should, at the very least, in responding to this debate, recognise that the measures that have been talked about for so long should already be in place. And, of course, in that respect, this Government has certainly failed our environment.

Can I say how much I welcome this proposal from Janet Finch-Saunders? I agreed with every element of the contribution that she made in introducing this debate this afternoon. I won't seek to repeat her comments and observations. I also agreed with the contribution from Llyr as well. He's absolutely right. If there's anything we've learnt over the last few years, it's: why wait for Westminster? We know they will let us down. We learnt that earlier today yet again.

The management of our waste is absolutely critical if we are to deliver on our ambitions for future generations, but also deliver on the vision that we have for our communities, our towns, our villages, our country and our planet. We have all witnessed the heartbreaking scenes of pollution, from the depths of the ocean to—as we've learnt in the last week—the very heights of Everest, where plastics are polluting the planet and polluting and destroying our wildlife.

We have to accept responsibility for it. We can't simply say, 'We'll wait for the Tories to do something', although, in this case, I'm glad that a Conservative is doing so. And, we can't simply say that this isn't our responsibility. We have to act ourselves. But, I want us to go further than what is being proposed this afternoon. I want to see a clean Wales Bill introduced in the next Parliament that does include—and rooted in the deposit-return scheme that is being proposed this afternoon—legislation on producer responsibility, which has to be at the heart of what we want to see, not only in cleaning up our own country, but also delivering a circular economy.

But there are other wider issues as well. We need to ensure that we outlaw the export of municipal waste from the United Kingdom and that no Welsh municipal waste finds its way into the oceans of this planet. It isn't good enough for us to pat ourselves on the back, here in this Chamber and elsewhere, saying that we have high recycling rates, saying that we're very good at managing waste, knowing all the time that we are exporting too much of that waste to other parts of the world. We must outlaw that completely.

Finally, the point that Janet Finch-Saunders and Llyr Gruffydd ended on is that of fly-tipping. This is something that affects my constituency, my community, and affects every constituency and community in this country. It is heartbreaking to walk on some of the most beautiful countryside in this country and to see the impact of fly-tipping. I have spoken to farmers in my own constituency who are heartbroken at what they're seeing. I talk to people who walk the hills around Blaenau Gwent every week of the year clearing the rubbish from there. It is clear to me that the current statutory frameworks that we have in place to outlaw fly-tipping are ineffective and not delivering the response that we require. So, we do need to look again at the statutory framework around fly-tipping. We need to increase the fines, and we need to ensure that we are able to deliver the sort of country to future generations that we all want to see. So, I very much agree and commend and will support the legislative proposal this afternoon.

I will be supporting Janet Finch-Saunders and Llyr's proposals this afternoon. There is no doubt that we are all aware of the scourge of discarded plastic bottles and cans that litter our streets and are all too often found in some of our most beautiful, rural and seaside settings. I believe that the amount of such litter would be drastically reduced by the introduction of a deposit-return scheme, particularly with regard to plastic bottles and cans. However, the amount of deposit paid is critical to its success. People, particularly the young, will not bother to return these items for, say, 5p. The deposit return must be in the region of 25p for the scheme to be successful. Those of us who remember a deposit being put on a bottle of lemonade will point out to you, you could buy a full bottle for around 11p—old money, that is—with a thruppence deposit return, which represents a value of around 25 per cent. I hope the younger ones can stay with me on this old money concept. So, I would urge whoever brings in legislation on return schemes to take these figures into account. With something like 25p per item, even if a number of people continued to discharge their cans and bottles, there would be many who would be willing to collect such items for the financial rewards this would bring. If the Welsh Government is to bring forward any legislation in the sixth term, let it be the deposit-return scheme. We know how successful the plastic bag charge was, so let's bring forward this legislation with utmost urgency. Thank you.

Most of my constituents feel extremely strongly about the litter disfiguring our communities, and I want to pay tribute to all the volunteers who take part in regular litter picks to clear up the mess created by the thoughtless few. I was out in Llanedeyrn last week with staff from the Cyncoed campus of Cardiff Metropolitan University, and I thank them for turning out in the rain. You won't be surprised to know how we picked up lots and lots of bottles and cans. A deposit-return scheme would, I hope, encourage people not to chuck items they can get money back on, and in particular, would, I hope, whet the entrepreneurial appetite of our young people. That is certainly how I increased the size of my pocket money in the long, distant past. My question to the proposer is this. The United Kingdom Internal Market Bill 2019-21, we know, would prevent this Senedd from being able to meaningfully eliminate single-use plastic, as we could only apply any measure to Welsh-based companies, which would, at a stroke, leave out the ubiquitous global brands of fizzy drinks that litter our landscape as well as advertising billboards.

So, how would the internal markets Bill fetter the Member's proposal? Please convince me that it wouldn't have the perverse consequence of causing drinks currently bottled in Wales to be relocated to the other side of the border to evade having to take part in a deposit-return scheme. How would your proposed legislation get around the iniquitous internal markets Bill in the form that the UK Conservative Government has framed it?

I'd just like to register my support for these proposals as well. I echo what Llyr said about similar commitments appearing in manifestos and policy documents since 2016, and before that. So, I don't think it's unfair to draw attention to the fact that no decision has been made by Welsh Government in these intervening years. And while other contributors may want to blame this all on the UK Government and how long they're taking, that doesn't get away from the fact that it's Welsh Government that's behind them all. So, I'm hoping that Members will support the thrust of these proposals and send a strong signal to our constituents that we will seek primary legislation on this in the sixth Senedd, and I hope that that primary legislation is Janet's.

I have my own views on how well Welsh Government has prioritised its legislative programme over this in the last five years. We have had time for a Bill on this. But, in the meantime, I am grateful to the Deputy Minister for her virtual visit to RPC Tedeco-Gizeh, a factory in my region that produces single-use plastic cups for the NHS across the UK—these are not the cups that appear in the litter that Jenny Rathbone was talking about. It was an important visit, because it illustrated that there's existing legislation that limits the recycling of certain types of plastic that has been in contact with food and drink. And so I think we need to be clear that this scheme accommodates only that that's currently recyclable, whilst, at the same time, encouraging research into different types of plastic that could be used for food and drink. Certainly, the consultations were on two different types of plastic in particular.

The proposal refers to the wider aim of reducing waste as well, and the new challenge of how we handle all the disposable PPE. I think that the discarded face mask has become the new street litter and, of course, they contain plastic. I especially noticed Janet's reference to marine life, and hope that the UK's £0.5 billion blue planet fund will include consideration of this new type of litter.

But it's Welsh Government that needs to get cracking as well on its own first steps to achieve anything under the zero waste strategy. So, like I think it was Alun Davies mentioned, I'm happy to welcome Wales's good score and high recycling collection rate, but that is just collection; we don't hear about what happens to the recyclate and we have a responsibility there, perhaps even more than for the collection of the recycling in the first place.

Finally, a deposit scheme encourages personal responsibility and I think it would work well alongside other incentives that drinks providers currently offer—so, taking your own cup for use for takeaway drinks, for example. Just a quick shout out to the wonderful Hideout cafe at Kenfig nature reserve, who knock money off their coffee if you do just that, and it runs alongside a sort of refill culture that's starting to take off, with milk container refills looking particularly popular at the moment.

And finally, of course, the Senedd Commission has to publish an annual report on its policy action taken to meet sustainability targets, because there's more to it than getting rid of just single-use plastic, and, if we can do it, I don't see why Welsh Government can't do it for policies designed for the whole nation. Thank you.

Minister, I welcome this motion and the proposal. It's a debate we've had on several occasions with regard to deposit-return schemes, which I fully endorse and support. I've commented numerous times myself on my childhood, where we were, effectively, the 1960s equivalent to barcoding—that is, we collected the bottles, we returned them and we got the money, which went into our pockets. It's very interesting to see how, in countries like Germany, they've introduced barcoding machines, whereby, when you purchase a bottle, you return the bottle, you barcode it as you deposit it and it automatically refunds your bank account with the deposit equivalent. So, there are ways of doing it and I do very much support that. 

Can I also comment on the fly-tipping issue, because I made the point, I think, in this Senedd some while back that the fines are not sufficient? You have councils that are doing good work in prosecuting those who are caught fly-tipping and tracing those caught fly-tipping, but the fines are derisory, to be honest. The fines, in my view, should be substantially increased and there should be also a mechanism for recovering the cost of actually clearing the site where the fly-tipping takes place.

But I do want to come on to the point that Jenny Rathbone raised, and I think it's a very serious one. Effectively, a deposit-return scheme is not one that we can now implement if the internal market Bill goes through, and I think Janet Finch-Saunders has to confirm that she and the Conservative group will oppose the internal market Bill, and those provisions in it that would actually prevent us from introducing this. Because it's all very well us talking about introducing something that we all support and want to see happen, whilst, at the same time in Westminster, we have a Government that's introducing capricious legislation that would actually prevent us from doing what we know we all want to do and have a mandate to do within Wales. Thank you, Llywydd.

First of all, can I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for bringing this before us? I am a long-term advocate of a deposit-return scheme. I remember the 5p and 10p deposit on a glass bottle of Corona pop, which was then taken away, washed and reused. That would be a wonderful way of going forward. It worked. People dumped them; we as children would collect them and get the money. We are suffering from cheap plastic, which has led to a throwaway society, and the world is suffering from it. Plastic is cheap to manufacture and has been used for more and more containers. Only a few years ago, sauce and vinegar came in glass bottles. Something needs to be done to stop plastic being a cheap product. I remember the first time I picked up a plastic vinegar bottle; I was absolutely bemused when I squeezed it and it moved. One way of stopping it being so cheap is a plastic tax, and I know we're not talking about that today, but I think it's something else that needs to be looked at.

We've seen the behaviour change from 5p per single-use plastic bag, which is over a 70 per cent reduction in the provision of single-use plastic bags. I support the introduction of a deposit-return scheme, initially for plastic drink bottles, but then you could expand it to all bottles and plastic containers, and then to all containers. Cheap plastic that you just throw away cannot be allowed to continue. We all have a duty to act now to support the planet and future generations. While I support a deposit-return scheme, I would much prefer a UK-wide scheme. People buying bottles in England and claiming back a deposit in Wales is obviously a cause for concern—and I see the Minister there—people in Chester bringing large numbers of bottles over to Wrexham, which may be just, in some cases, crossing the road. The simple solution of marking bottles as English or Welsh is unlikely to occur. There's no benefit in it for the producer of either the bottle or the product. I will support this today, but what I really hope is that it will motivate the Westminster Government to act. We've got to do something.

The Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs to contribute—Lesley Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. The issues of waste reduction, recycling, littering and single-use plastics are of great importance to our citizens and to all of us in this Senedd. Recycling has become part of who we are as a nation, and the fact that we've risen to third in the world in our recycling rates is due to the partnership working between Government, local government and the people of Wales. As a Government, we have ambitious plans to do more, so I therefore welcome the objectives and sentiment behind this motion.

Twenty years ago, Wales had a recycling rate of just 7 per cent, and, through our actions as a nation collectively, we've achieved a rate that is now more than 60 per cent, on our way to that 100 per cent recycling that we want to see by 2050. To do so, we have wide-ranging plans in place that will deliver many changes. We've just completed a consultation on banning nine single-use plastic items, going further than similar proposals in England, and the summary of responses to the consultation will be published shortly, and our aim is to bring the ban into force next year. We're also progressing work on a deposit-return scheme for drinks containers, and, again, we'll be publishing proposals early next year. And we also intend to publish proposals on how we tackle packaging waste, through an extended producer-responsibility scheme.

Powers for Welsh Ministers, alongside those of other devolved nations, to introduce both schemes have been included in the UK Environment Bill, which is currently at Committee Stage in the UK Parliament. The powers also include the ability to introduce charges for single-use plastic items, where appropriate, to reduce their use. Furthermore, to increase recycling for businesses and other organisations, we've already committed to introducing legislation that will require the separation of their waste by autumn 2021. And this will make it not only easier to recycle, but also ban recyclable material from going to landfill and incineration.

Like others, I'm very concerned about the littering of single-use items, the use of which has increased as a consequence of the COVID pandemic. Evidence from the annual British beach litter survey shows single-use face coverings and gloves on our beautiful beaches. To tackle this issue, we will be launching a social media campaign to encourage people to wear reusable face coverings where possible, or they should dispose of single-use ones responsibly.

Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned the work that's ongoing with Welsh Water at the current time in relation to wipes, and I have asked officials to discuss this to see what we can do, because it's clearly becoming a massive issue and something that we must deal with, I think, as a matter of urgency.

In terms of mandatory reporting, we've published recycling rates for Wales every year since devolution, and will continue to do so. The new deposit-return and extended producer-responsibility schemes will also include mandatory reporting, so that everyone can judge the success of these policies.

In relation to fly-tipping, this is an aspect that's just come back into my portfolio, and I've asked officials again to continue to look at fly-tipping, because it is certainly a blight on our communities, and the framework that Members referred to. I'm not quite sure why there was a link between bottles, because fly-tipping, generally, seems to be bigger items, but, again, it's something that we must continue to do more on.

So, although I agree with the objectives behind this motion, I don't think a separate Bill is required, as the relevant powers are included in the UK Environment Bill, as I've referred to. Unfortunately, though, the positive inclusion of these powers for Wales is tempered by the provisions in the UK internal market Bill, and this means, without amendment, our ability to act in the interests of Wales will be limited, and it does risk tying us to the lowest common standard within the UK. We've got a really successful history in this area, which has seen us progress faster than any other UK nation, and it's now a matter of pride, not just amongst ourselves, but amongst our citizens. So, I do not believe Wales's ability to continue to act in this area should be reduced in any way.

So, I do welcome today's debate, Llywydd, and we will continue to listen to the views from Members of the Senedd as the proposals I've outlined are developed further and implemented. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you to the Member for responding to the debate—and I think we welcome the consultation responses that are forthcoming—and to all Members for their excellent contributions, whereby everyone was in agreement, really, that this is something that's been badly needed for quite some time. Some of the soundbites that came from some of those contributions, such as personal responsibility, the entrepreneurial skills of young people, raised by Jenny Rathbone—the point about the internal market Bill I think was a red herring, because, at the end of the day, this is about a devolved Government and the powers that we have here in Wales. I do think that we can't hide—or Welsh Government here shouldn't be hiding—behind the internal market Bill.

The points that Alun Davies raised about fly-tipping are excellent points. The statutory framework isn't strong enough, and we need to really go that bit further.

Llyr Gruffydd saying about the talking the talk, now we need to walk the walk—and I would like to put on record my immense thanks for the work that Sir David Attenborough does, his passion, his compassion, and his ability to convey across to the world what a ticking timebomb we have in terms of plastic pollution. I would just ask, and there are Members in this Senedd here today—David Rowlands—I would just ask all Members to get behind this legislative proposal today, give it your support, and let's go forward positively. As we end what has been an awful year, let's go forward positively, collectively, as one Senedd, and let's bring in this deposit-return scheme. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.